Love versus Sex

[Ken2]

... in response to Re: Love versus Sex, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2004

About a month ago, as I was leaving the Bogota airport, the goverment was airing an anti-prostitution commercial.  It was surpprising to say the least. They also posted a hotline number to report if you chose. Interesting that they are trying to tackle this when they can't deal with other more important issues.

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Love versus Sex, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2004

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

From a male's perspective prostitution isn't such a big deal in Colombia but I think the same could almost be said of infidelity too. The point being that male acceptance of it, is no measure of whether it's a positive benefit for society. Among other women, there's still a large stigma attached to prostitution.  Men while they engage in prostitution, prostitutes are not the women men seek out when creating a family.  

Things are changing in Colombia and not for the better IMO.  Infidelity is rampant and where it was once only the men, the women are now doing the same.  As an example, my wife returned to Colombia recently for a month and someone she knew from her high school days, asked her if she had an "amante" (i.e. lover outside of marriage).  My wife was somewhat taken back that her friend from the past would think this was even a possibility let alone ask it. Yet the woman was serious and asked it in the context that this was normal, she was doing it, why not others.   Infidelity and prostitution are obviously nothing new but I do think there's a growing casualness about it.  There's an expression in Spanish, "sin verguenza" which translates into "no shame".  I think that's where we are headed, certainly for the men, prostitution and even infidelity are no longer things to be shameful of, men are often proud and boast of it to others.

It's unfortunate that women find themself in the situation where prostitution is the answer to what ever problems economic or otherwise they have.  It may be their choice but I don't think it's a healthy one and the affects must over time be very damaging. When love is seperated from sex, I believe it has an affect on a person's psyche.  At some level, our being knows that sex is meant to exist hand in hand with love.  Seperation of sex apart from love, will often leave you the empty feeling Pete spoke of.  Of course, if a person continues to treat sex like it's "just sex", then they will dull their senses.  The empty feelings will fade and give way to an inability to love completely ( i.e. think major baggage) or to a cynicism you often see among those who treat sex as if it were "only sex".  

I'm basicly a liberterian and believe that people should make their own choices, for good or for bad.  For this reason I think prostitution among adults should be legal. Although I think people should have this choice, I think it's a poor one that leads to problems in the family and with the psyche.

[Kiltboy1]

... in response to Love versus Sex, posted by Cali James on Apr 15, 2004

James

I agree with you. I have been going to cali for 4 years now and i see it getting worse as well. In the 2 years i have been married to my wife, some of the things her friends have done really disturb me and fall into the catagory of"NO SHAME"

I think the attitude in cali , and maybe all of colombia  is leaning towards the lack of committment that used to be in there society.

I cannot put my finger on exactly why there attitude is changeing, but i see it for sure .

[kented]

... in response to Re: Love versus Sex, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2004

I agree that sex without a loving relationship can seem a bit empty at times.  My point was that some of the women are decent women.  

I'm lots happier with a wife who loves me than I would have been with perpetual sexual variety.  In Costa Rica I liked to drink at the Del Rey, the hooker bar for rich tourists.  I had no intention of paying these prices on $750 a month salary but i enjoyed drinking and looking.  I met some people who lived in CR who had relationships in which they saw the same person several times a week, paid her and spent time with her  after sex.  Then she went home and they spent far less than husbands or boyfriends spent.  

After I was committed my wife let me go there to drink and I chatted with many ladies after I told them I wasn't interested.  I thought a lot of them seems sweet and interesting.  Always children, seldom with pateral support, some had part time jobs, some were fasirly intelligent, some just had no control of their lives.  I'm sure some were jsut con artists (a valuable asset in their profession) and some were really swewet ladies.  

kented

[roadken]

... in response to Re: Re: Love versus Sex, posted by kented on Apr 15, 2004

The attitude hasn't changed guys.You are just noticing it more.Cali is the MAJOR SEX CAPITAL of South America.MAJOR!
There are many fine women in Cali but there are tons of them that are what we call Party Girls.They are fun,they are gorgeous and MANY of them hook straight up,on the side to pay a few bills or "soft hook" with serial monogamy.
That is life in much of the world.Please be honest when you discuss this because the reason most guys go to Cali is
to get laid.I hope "laid" is not a banned word but it it the truth.There is a saying in Colombia...If you want a mistress,go to Cali.If you want a wife,go to Medillin.

[Brazilophile]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Love versus Sex, posted by roadken on Apr 15, 2004

I disagree.  Rio de Janeiro is the sex capital of South America.  Judging from stories I have heard and what I have witnessed, I have visited both Cali and Cartagena, one could argue that Cartagena is the sex capital of Colombia.

That said, I still believe that wife material is in the eye of the beholder and can be found anywhere and everywhere, even in Sodom.  I would not let a city's reputation turn a man away from it as a wife search destination.  In fact, I would bet that a woman who has grown up around sexual promiscuity and has resisted that lifestyle will make a better wife than a woman who had never known that lifestyle and gets plunged into that environment suddenly as an adult.

[burbuja2]

... in response to Re: Love versus Sex, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2004

Prostitution does cover a wide cross-section of LA society, but only among lower and middle-lower classes.  With rare exceptions, you will not find any middle class or higher girls in the business.  Also, drug use is prevalent among latin prostitutes, the use is just a little more subtle.  I will admit, however, that while usage may be around 97% in the U.S., it is lower in LA.  Last, there is absolutely no doubt that continued involvement in the business does cause mental health problems for the girl.

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Let Me Speak on This, posted by burbuja2 on Apr 15, 2004

Burbuja

Your perceptions sound valid.  I wonder what percentage of Latin America is middle or upper class.  In the US it might be 50%.  In Latin America I would guess 10%.  That means most girls are going to fall into the potential hooker population.

My guess is that it is prevalent in major Colombian cities, too.  I would bet that most of the beautiful young girls in the Colombian agencies do some kind of P4P unless their parents are well off.  They may not be working in a "casa", but many may be with a man they don't love because he is paying their bills (OK, many US women fall into that category, too, and they are called "wives").  My wife's ex-boyfriend (who would not be mistaken for Tom Cruise) used to say he paid for her business (a matress store).  Maybe he did.

Steve

[Kiltboy1]

... in response to Re: Let Me Speak on This, posted by DallasSteve2 on Apr 15, 2004

OVER 2000 CASAS IN CALI ALONE--WHO IS MANNING THE STORES ?

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Let Me Speak on This, posted by burbuja2 on Apr 15, 2004

Prostitution is Latin America is very different than the United States.  The majority of Latin American prostitutes are single mothers that were never married or divorced.  Additionally, some of them are even currently married and her husband is her padrote.  Some of the really young ones may use drugs.  They tend to be from the lower classes, or even middle class since the economy is so bad.  They don’t like what they are doing but they do it to pay the bills.  I have heard of gringos who have moved in with or even married women they met through prostitution in Tijuana.  However, most of the time it doesn’t work out.  A few years ago, I got to know a stripper in Tijuana who was gorgeous.  She could have been in Playboy.  But, she was not a prostitute.  She grew up on a ranch in Sinaloa.  In Mexico, it is common for well-to-do men to have one or two mistresses and they even have children from the mistress.  From, what I could determine she was one of these children.  She showed me pictures of herself in a ballet class when she was young and she appeared to be cultured and to have had a good education.  Yet, with a small child, she was poor enough that she had to be a stripper to survive.  In Mexico, any normal woman who is pretty may work in a normal job during the day, and do stripping on the weekends, but this doesn’t mean she does prostitution.  Hence, if a gringo knows what he is doing he could pick up a beautiful, non-prostitute lady in a Mexican strip bar.  If you are a gringo who speaks Spanish, you will be attractive to them.

         

[Locii]

... in response to Re: Let Me Speak on This, posted by valuedcustomer on Apr 15, 2004

I often don't understand how people create mental/emotional barriers in their thinking.  I mean, we all do it (including me) but sometimes it is very obvious.

I think the real point to these posts is that if there is a 'behavioral line' where a woman is or is not a prostitute, it is very often in the perception of the beholder.

Another way of saying it is to turn it around.  When I was first with my (american) ex-wife, I beleived she was in love with me.  Over time and various kinds of events, it became crystal clear to me that I was something of a meal ticket to her, and that my value as a lover/parter had faded, and my paycheck was of more interest to her.  My point in this is I beleive I became a prostitute for her...my output rather than my person overall was what she was interested in...

...After all I think that is all a prostitute is...Would I prefer to know/live with/care for person X, or merely come to some fair arrangement where I capture their goods/services and they get Z out of me?

Most of the rest of the world is not terribly concerned about where these 'behavioral lines' exist, or if they get crossed.  There are 3 places/cultures where people care enough to codify and prosecute it:

1. China
2. Arabian peninsula
3. US

We keep good company in this regard, don't we.

I will say this.  I did not like the feeling of being a prostitute in my marriage (esp when I could get less and less out of her).  So I ended that.  I  am pretty sure, in all my relationships since, I have engaged in gray-area prostitution, since few women I know have sex with me without either an investment of significant attention or dinner and yadda yadda.  It should be clear that I have no qualms with calling a spade a spade.

The term 'relationship' means just that.  I relate to your assets and you relate to mine.  We erect these notions of P4P and prostitution and where casual partying begins and hooking ends to suit ourselves.  Something tells me God doesn't care.

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: Re: Let Me Speak on This, posted by Locii on Apr 15, 2004

[This message has been edited by Calipro]

You really think about and rationalize things a lot. I guess it makes you feel better. But, what I would like to know is if it helps you maintain a good relationship with a woman?

You know if I really wanted to marry a prostitute I would just marry her because I wanted to. How profound is that? Not very. But look how much more time I would have to think about more important stuff like what else I wanted to do.

[Locii]

... in response to Locii, posted by Calipro on Apr 16, 2004

[This message has been edited by Locii]

Calipro,

By God your right.  I will take your advice and think less.  Why, this opens up all kinds of opportunites for me as a futures trader.  Why didn't I think of this before.

Praise Calipro for seeing throught the mist of intelligence and thought...if only more people in this world would act before they think, we would be so much better off.

Ciao

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: Locii, posted by Locii on Apr 16, 2004

There are to many variables in life. Roll the dice and take your chances. Contemplation can lead to procrastination IMHO.

[Pete E]

... in response to Just Do It !!, posted by Calipro on Apr 17, 2004

The paralysis of analysis its been called.

Pete