Let us learn from other's mistakes

[yoe]

... in response to Yes...., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002

[This message has been edited by yoe]

I have agreed with every post you have so eloquantly placed on this forum-until this one. I have met many RW and and I have met the type of men that go to the FSU to get them. I do not care if Dave was chosen by God to be a dupe, that does not justify that these types of men go to these countries and cause much harm. Look at Mark H. How manyhearts did he break? I do not blame these women for taking AM? I have seen how AM act over there and it is not something to be proud of. So I do not fell sorry for Dave any more than the hobo on the highway pulling 50k a year collecting pennies. I do feel sorry for the inocent girls that will become even more hard and maybe become scammers due to more American intervention and cultural infestation.
Joe

[LP]

... in response to Sorry lp........, posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002

.... (You know I'm being serious when I call you Joe ;-)

Life is not as simplistic as you often see it. It's one thing to spar with an equal, it's another to do battle with an unarmed man. Some folks simply are not in control and it's not their fault, anymore than you can blame a guy for having the flu. When will the lay person stop believing such afflictions can simply be wished away by "getting a grip on yourself? They almost never can.

What "harm" has he caused? Like Ken, I feel the MOB scene is full of socially challenged men, the very types of guys who *shouldn't* be involved in the first place. It's why the "loser" perception the public has of this business rings true. Add to this an individual who has a mental health issue and hopefully you'll understand his situation.

Look, Davey tweaked me more in the past than anyone here. (Even you ;-)But there's a difference between him and most other's in that he's sick. Just because he's sick does not mean he deserves to be pummeled by life, even if it's his own doing. And even if it is, in a very valid way he's less responsible for it than the rest of us. After all, his perception is his reality, doesn't he deserve the same happiness as you? If you were him, wouldn't you try to achieve it the only way you "knew" how? In fact, didn't you do just that? So your's worked out, not everyone's does. And in cases like David's, it's not *totally* their own doing.

You know I think many MOB guys dig their own graves. Many have minor mental health issues to begin with. But this guy was preloaded for failure in big way so give him a break.  Although it's clear his deal would have failed anyway, she doesn't sound like a prize either. The difference is she's likely in control of her actions and therefore showed more malice than David. Just because you scored the brass ring and are normal (well, ;-) doesn't mean everyone gets dealt the same hand. Have some empathy. As I understand it, your past should allow you this. Yeah, I know, your past suffering might have been your own doing, but it's not so black and white for everyone else.

If I haven't convinced you, well, I did my best. I just would have thought a peace and love kinda guy like you could see the light on this one.

[yoe]

... in response to Joe..., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002

Ok you got me. I am leaving my wife and coming for ya. I knew that you were the one for me. We will go to Cananda and run naked through the pine trees!
Hey I have my days of empathy but my wife has made it clear to me that it is better to teach a man to fish than to keep rubbing dirty panties on his face! No I am sorry that was a different story. OK I will agree to a point-ya happy?
peace love
Joe

[LP]

... in response to awwwwwwwwwwww..., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002

.....you are soooo easy. It's because I know that under that gruff exterior lies a heart of silver, a bit tarnished, but worth something nevertheless.

Btw, I'll take the dirty panties over fishing anyday. ;-)

[yoe]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

David is a prime example of the kind of guys that created the whole scam process. There cannot be a scam if someone does not let themselves be scammed. Like Dante and other meglomaniancs that live in a state of constant delusion, they feel that their greatness is just to powerful to be comprehended. So they go to a foreign country find some gal who 'thinks' they are wonderful and the devil's brew begins. This is Daves fault 100%. We all get what we deserve. I have seen so many men blame women for their problems but I will say one more time!!!!
"IF YOU WERE A GOOD PARTNER, WHY WOULD A WOMAN LEAVE YOU FOR SOMEONE ELSE?" Just like Shane Neff. The story is the same. They shower them with gifts, treat them like queens, the are brilliant men with great bodies, they are the best men on the planet-but these women leave them for a life of poverty or lesser circumstances? Yea right. No scammer is that stupid!
Joe

[bryan]

... in response to I have been to the mountain..........., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002

No way does shane compare in any way to this clod. Shane accepts responsabilty for his actions. With the bitter sentiment of what he went through he tries to help others involved in this pursuit.

[Dan]

... in response to Re: I have been to the mountain............, posted by bryan on Nov 30, 2002

Shane's explicit vilification of the Orthodox church (as just one example) is hardly evidence of his acceptance of responsibility for his own actions. That, and his vocal disdain for "butterflies and rainbows" boards (HIS label) that point out his illogical arguments - are yet another reminder of how warped some people in this endeavor can be.

- Dan

[LP]

... in response to We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . ..., posted by Dan on Nov 30, 2002

...Ha! I actually kinda like that, it sure fits this place at times.

[bryan]

... in response to We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . ..., posted by Dan on Nov 30, 2002

Shane on the other hand is not suicidal. Hes dealt with it and moved on with the exception of sharing his experience with us. i read his story and find his problems in the church plausible, neither of us know for sure.

[KenC]

... in response to I have been to the mountain..........., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002

Joe,
Not everyone is as experienced as you when it comes to women.  The MOB business is fed by men that are less experienced with women.  Can you not see that?  Now mix a few thousand naive AM with a few thousand savvy FSU women and what do get?  This is where the imbalance comes from.  Who is more responsible for being scammed?  The scammer or the scamee?  With your logic, all the men that have been scammed are guilty.  I ask, guilty of what?  Being naive?  Weak argument, Joe, even for you.
KenC

[Oscar]

... in response to disagree, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

Ken, I have to respectfully disagree with you on some of this.  You keep talking about the issue being one of being "naive" but in reading David's posts, I cannot agree.  He has some genuine issues.  Do you know how dismal the divorce rates are for people who are personality disordered?  It is terribly difficult for the average person to try to stay married to someone who is a true Narcissist..  They are never wrong, they are never to blame, they can be extremely condescending, they have all the answers for themselves AND for you, nobody else could possibly understand them because they are not "intelligent" enough..  It is just so difficult for people like this to have anything approaching normal relationships.  You read what he wrote here, can you imagine being married to that kind of skewed thinking??  Add coming from a completely different culture where people pretty much say it as they see it and you have a recipe for disaster..

I think the point was made in an earlier post that it would be interesting to hear HER side of the story, because I am sure it would greatly illuminate the perspective on this matter a lot..  I am not saying she might not have had a real part in this, I certainly don't know anything about her, but I have seen what HE has written and to live with that would be horrendously difficult for ANY woman, including Mother Teresa.  Add to that coming from another culture and.... run for cover!

I don't know the guy, have no ill will towards him, but I think to lay it on the doorstep of simply being "naive" is innaccurate and perhaps a great injustice to the woman involved.. Do we really know what SHE has been through??  I don't know, perhaps you and your wife do if you know them some.

What can he do?  Before ever attempting another relationship, he should heavily invest himself in some serious therapy (not at all meant as a slam).  It will take some time as this is nothing that can be fixed with a pill like some situations.  This is deeply ingrained in a persons character, as you can see from his writing..

My 2 cents

[KenC]

... in response to Re: disagree, posted by Oscar on Nov 30, 2002

[This message has been edited by KenC]

Oscar,
I ignored the possibility of any personality disorders to focus on the topic that would most benifit this forum.  (Naive AM/savvy RW).  I will not challange your expertise on mental health issues.  I do have some experience with a relationship with a woman with mental health problems and had to walk away, so I know it is no picnic.  As for David's wife, Lena (a Russian trained psychologist) had a very terrible opinion of her after spending some time with them.  David's own discription of her seems rather accurate.
KenC

[Oscar]

... in response to FYI, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

Lena should certainly have a clue about her having spent some time with them.  It truly sounds like they were trying to bake dynamite together with some nitro, not a great mix..
I do feel he could greatly benefit from some professional help and hope he will look at that possibility..

I agree that the board can benefit from looking at the situation, postmortem though it may be..

[yoe]

... in response to disagree, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

to  a point. But I give the same consideration as I give myself. I have been duped and I have duped. I just feel that we are all participants. It is like blaming a the horse for losing the bet. We make our own decisions and we all make bads one. I have probably made more than most-but I did not pull the trigger-instead I decided to pull it together and truck on through. My wife is still adjusting God bless her. But life is tough if you let be. I just hope this will cool his heels.
Joe

[KenC]

... in response to Ken I agree ........, posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002

Joe,
there is no doubt in my mind that David could have (should have) seen this coming a mile away.  But THAT is the exact point I am trying to make.  Let's discuss the errors made so as to help other less experienced men learn from it.
KenC