A Change of Heart

[Aaron]

Hi,

I just want to post this message. It's 5:00 am, and I just had a night of tossing and turning; doing some thinking and reflecting on what some friends and I have discussed in the past.

I have made a decision...

I am done with marriage agencies.

I made this decision for a couple of reasons, which are summarized below.

I don't believe I have met or will meet "the one" in an agency anymore because:

1.) I'm looking for a well educated, intelligent, extremely sincere, sensible, and very attractive latina. From my experience in this ball game, the type of latina that I'm looking for would probably not join an agency in the first place. Please don't think I'm putting the women down who are members of agencies, or who were members of agencies but now are married. That is not the case. I'm simpling stating the fact that it is an infrequent thing to find the type of woman that I'm looking for in an agency.

2.) Frankly, in Colombia and other countries, agencies are looked at with suspicion.

3.) I'm tired of coming across insincere people, male clients and female members, and allot of times I experienced situations where I was unknowingly competing against many guys for the same girl. The girl passed me up because someone else would propose to her to get engaged too quickly for my tastes. I don't believe in trying to compete with other guys for a girl's attention. That's something teenagers do. I have many women latina friends, most of them are between 29 and 40. They all told me to take time to know a latin woman, and be novios for a couple of years before engagement. I totally agree with them. Basically, I think meeting, getting engage, then getting married in less than a year is kind of desperate.

4.) I feel going to agencies, spending my income to meet 30 women in two weeks is a waste of money, especially when I don't see anyone that I have a strong interest in, or the person is already taken, or not available.

I can go on and on. I've played the agency game for 4 years, and the only thing it has led to are the four points that I mention above.

Actually, the times that I was most happy in Latin America were during activities when I wasn't even looking to find a date; but I was doing other things like rock climbing, sitting at discos, going to parks, and travelling with friends.

Another thing, I will not give up on searching for a latina wife in Latin America, but I believe that there are many beautiful latinas in the USA to meet, as well. So, I'm going to look in both places. When I travel to Latin America, I will visit friends, and I feel that I speak Spanish well enough to get along without an interpreter. While in the USA, I'll get involved in the latin social scene.

I was considering on going to Colombia for Christmas to visit an agency. However, I am not !!! If I go, I'll visit friends. I'm considering on visiting other places as well.

Sorry if this post offends anyone. That is not my intention. Also, for the guys who disagree, and want to poke at me because of this post, don't waste your time because I'm not going to be drawn into an argument about this.

Aaron

   

[Celt]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

Aaron,

It is very sad to see a good man in such despair.
It is also pretty unnecessary.

Your comments reminded me of a classic Monty Python
skit with John Cleese as a cricket pitcher. Cleese
describes throwing these perfect strikes that came
back to him right between the eyes, finishing with,
"Well, of course by then I was getting rather used
to it."

Why not change your delivery?

First, you do not have to put all your eggs in the
agency basket, but why not a few? Secondly, it has
been said very well on these pages many times before,
but your "media naranja" is somewhere in Cali or Bogota,
and is thinking complementary thoughts to your own:
"Why can't I find a sincere, thoughtful man?" "Why do
these men want women so much younger than themselves?"
"If they are serious, why do they make so many citas
with so many girls?"

These are direct quotes from either agency girls or
owners.

I think the "80/20" rule applies in the agencies as well.
LatinEncounters, IMHO, does a poor job of spreading the love among all their available ladies. The majority of
the woman do not have many citas at all. There must be a
way to find that 80%, and one good woman within it.

Thirdly, as a wise man once said, "A man has got to know
his limitations." Are you looking for a Latina trophy, or
a competent life partner? Adjust your sights and criteria
accordingly. The real special ones will be in the corner
of the agency lots, again IMHO. The agencies will push
the flashier models to get you to commit to a week-long
membership, but if you look deeper, there are good women
there.

I think the secretaries, not the owners, are your best
resource. They know the serpientes and their motivations.
They are the most straightforward post-date feedback sources. Befriending them can save you alot of later
disillusion. And the like tips.

Finally, your thoughts about education are a little
strong, considering the opportunities many of these
women have in life. I spent a day with a stylist discussing
Colombian literature while walking through a Cali museum.
She told me she is an avid reader and would like to continue
her education in the U.S. if possible. She took me to the
Valley of Paradise and was familiar with the construction of
the "latifundio" and its basis for the Colombian novel "Maria".

I think desperation, as you said, is inappropriate. But,
an overhauling of your optimism and strategy may not be.

best of luck!

Celt

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: A Change of Heart, posted by Celt on Sep 28, 2002

....for your witty input.

As for the idea that I'm searching for a trophy, no I'm not. But, I have standards that I plan to keep. It's all about compatibility, not searching for arm candy.

As for my strategy, as I said in my post before, I will start relying on my friends from Latin America more, and I will put myself in the position to network with more people who are not in the agency circuit.

Some of my friends from Bogota, who are presently in the USA living and working good jobs, have told me what to expect and avoid when visiting agencies. These people have told me that I don't need to settle for anything less than what I am looking for, and using agencies is just one avenue.

Aaron

[Calipro]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002


 You are one of a very few guys that I would recommend go on a TLC tour. A lot of the women you meet on these tours are professional women (even the tour in Cali) and they would never think about joining a marriage agency.
 But, like I have said in previous posts only half of the women at any TLC social have an expressed interest in meeting an american for marriage. The other half are just going to a party with a friend.

So the only problem you have is that only half of the women are pre-sold on the idea of meeting an american for marriage. If you speak spanish fairly well you shouldn't have to much trouble selling the other half on the idea.
Otherwise it will be an up hill battle.

[Pete E]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

Aaron,
Even though I think agencies are a great way to go,particularly for the beginer,I have no problems with guys taking another approach as long as they are persistent enough to pursue it to success.I think that you are ,so you will probably be successfull even with more difficult and time consuming tactics.Another thing,the popularity of Colombia I think is in large part due to the number of agencies.Other countries are less developed,so to speak.You can try many other countries where the newcomer would have problems meeting someone.I forgot if you speak spanish.I think that is almost essential if you are going to "go it alone".So good luck,with enough persistance it will probably work for you.
As far as the quality of women at the agencies,all kinds can be found I think,including very educated and proffesional ones.The one thing they have in common is motivation.They are there because they are motivated to meet a foriegn husband.If you start trying to meet women
in other ways they may not have the same motivation.E-mail
relationships may not pan out when you meet the woman.Actualy I think your approach is best for a guy who can go to a country and live there awhile.
It seems to me you may be giving up the most efficient way of meeting women because you think the quality is not there.My opinion is it would be more time efficient to search through a huge number of motivated women at agencies than to try to meet them by other means.But to each his own,as long as you don't get dicouraged and give up on it.
For the average guy who has little time and doesn't speak spanish I think the agencies make it possible for him to meet a woman where other ways of going about it probably would not work,he would give up and not go any more.Even for guys who go alot,it can be tough.Was it John who posted recently he was not meeting the woman he was looking for after going 4 times,but the last trip he only met the 3 women he had been writing,and none of them fit.Its a slow way to about it.
I guess my other argument is that what you are really looking for is a emotional connection that you won't have untill you meet the woman.You can't force that to happen,it happens by itself.You just have too meet alot of women untill it does.So to me the more women you meet the more likely finding that emotional connection.
Just don't get in a paralysis of analysis and do nothing.I don't think you will but other guys who want to take low probability approaches worry me here.
For me personally I think the agency approach is the only one that would have worked unless I moved there and learned spanish,which I was not ready to do and may have never got around to.Without agencies I probably would still be single.And I am very happy with the quality of my agency girl.My wife took some college courses but did not graduate.She is not a proffesional.But she is the most intelligent woman I have ever been involved with,and I have dated a number with advanced degrees.She is at least  30 points higher in IQ than one ex girl friend with a masters in Psychology.
Maybe you just need to disregard the ones that don't fit and not judge all agency girls by them.Of course there are girls who just want to come here and will take about any guy.There are users and players and desperate girls also.But the winners are there also,I am convinced.
Good luck Aaron,keep us posted.

Pete

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: A Change of Heart, posted by Pete E on Sep 26, 2002

Pete,

I'm glad you found happiness with your wife. Let me come clean here. I'll tell you the story because you're a regular poster, and we've exchanged posts many times before on a positive note.

I went to Cali recently in May. I meet a girl by luck, who I had sent a gift to earlier in January of 2002. I did not think I would ever have met that girl because of the following:

1.) She left Colombia for a few months.
2.) She's very pretty, and I thought she would probably be taken by the time I would arrive there for vacation.

However, by chance, a guy called the agency where I was staying, and he told me that he had her contact information, and he told me to contact her. I did. I contacted her. She was in town.

She and I met at the agency, but she wasn't a member at the agency anymore.

When I met her, I was stunned because she looked better that she did in her photos. I told her who I was, and about the letter and gift I sent her in January. She immediately realized who I was then, and she said that she really loved the gift, and she was really excited to meet me. She said that she didn't think she would ever get the chance to meet me in person.

Well, we talked. And we went out for a date that night. Things went well. She didn't have a boyfriend she said.
Then at the end of the night, there was a really nice good night kiss that she gave me. She put her hand on my check, and gave me a soft peck on the lips. It was nice.

The next day, I sent that girl 40 roses and a ltter to her house. We talked, and we decided to be friends. She said that she was going to visit her mother in a different city for the following week, and it would be difficult for her to see me. I said ok. So, I said I was going to see other people while she was gone. She said ok.

I meet other women. They were nice women, some older and some younger. During the last night in Cali, I had to make my rounds to visit all the girls I had met, but all I really wanted to do was to see that other girl again to spend time with her.

I called her at 9:30 pm. She was home finally. We went out to eat at 10:30 pm. She said "Que bien me llamaste Aaron" (which means "how good that you called me Aaron"). We were sitting and talking. We exchanged our contact information. I told her that I needed to relocate to Australia within the next few days. I told her that I would call her as soon as I could. She mentioned that she was going to make plans to come to the USA. I told her if she could get a visa to visit, then I would return back to the USA for christmas to show her around. She said ok.

As soon as I got to Australia, I called that woman. I called her about twice per week in the beginning. Then we communicated less by phone but more through emails. It's difficult to keep up the communications from Australia because the the time differences. But the costs are cheap. We sent emails, she sent photos, we would chat on the weekends for a hour. She seemed like she was interested at first. She sent me romantic electronic cards, and a few sexy photos. When I called her she seemed interested in  me. I told her that I wanted to be serious with her, and I asked for her to wait for me to return this coming December. She said ok. I asked her not to date anyone romantically. She said ok.  

I asked her if she was corresponding with anyone else. She said no. I asked her if she was dating any Colombian boys. She said no. She said that she didn't like Colombian men.
I told her that I wanted to send her a gift. She asked for me to send her money instead of the gift because the gift might not reach her !!!! This was a major red flag that I tried to look over. I sent $100.00.

Well, time went by. Our emails and phone calls started to be less frequent, but I tried not to jump to conclusions by assuming things.

We still kept in contact. She new about my decision to return home, and she supported my decision. She said that she was waiting until I returned to visit her.

Three weeks before I left Australia, I sent this girl extremely high quality perfume, body cremes, stuffed animals, and a picture book of Austrlia all in one package. The total cost to buy and send the gifts was $300.00 USD. Then, I later found out that it was possible for her not to receive any of it because Colombia places restrictions on foreign cosmetic items in postal parcels.

However, I called her, and she said she received them all. And that she loved them very much. I felt good. We talked and she said that she wasn't with anyone else.

However, as I was flying over the pacific ocean from Melbourne, Australia to LA (which was a long 14 hours direct) my intuition told me that something wasn't right. I felt a very strong negative feeling about what was happening, and something had changed.

When I arrived here in the USA, she and I sent each other emails a few times, and we made chat. During the last chat session, which was on my birthday, she told me that she had visited a guy from Cali, and she was starting to develop feelings for him. I asked her to be sure if the guy was another gringo, or a Colombian guy. She said he was from Cali. She asked if I was angry. I told her no, and that I wanted for her to be happy. She said thanks, and called me an excellent friend. I asked her what she wanted to do from that point on. She told me that she had an interview for a visa to enter the USA coming up !!!! I said .... WHAT !!!!!

I asked where she was going to visit. She said she didn't know where, but she wanted to come to see the USA. She said that she can't develop feelings for someone far away.

I said ok. Then I told her, if she happened to need help when she arrived here, then don't hesitate to call. I didn't and still don't want to see anything bad happen to this person.

Then that was it. I tried to call her a few times, but she wont accept my calls because she is with her boyfriend. I talked to a family member, and they told me that the other guy is serious, and is from Cali. I shook my head in amazement.

My hunch is that there either is one of three things happening:

1.) That this girl took up with a gringo, and is on her way here, but is planning on dropping his azz once she arrives.

2.) That the girl is really with a guy from Cali (probably an old boyfriend), whose probably making all these promises to her, and may even have a way to bring her to the USA.  

3.) That this girl is trying to play games with my mind to make me desperate the next time I see her, using the competition mind game thing.

I can remember H2O's old posts about his experience with that woman playing him, then getting married a year later.  

All I'm going to do with this is to keep my mouth shut, and let the cards fall where they're going to fall.

This post is too long for me to edit because I'm hungry, and I'm going to Pizza Hut for lunch.

Chao,
Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

Aaron,
If she is getting a visa it would be a fiancee visa I guess,if not a spousal visa.And she doesn't know where she is going?Come on,you know better than that.Why don't you just ask her?Unfortunately it sounds like she is not being strait with you so unless the answer to the question clears it up(highly unlikely,unless she is getting a travel visa,which is almost impossible)) the solution is the same,forget her.Why would she lead you on?I don't know but I will speculate.She is either keeping you in reserve or just using you.Either way I think you should just forget her.Be glad you are not the poor sucker bringing her in.
This is what can happen when a girl puts enough effort in it to play you along.I think you got way out ahead of the status of the relationship with the gifts.
Maybe I did get lucky.I have been told that.But I have a theory.You can always tell the really good girls right away.Watch out for the others.This girl falls in the "other" catagory.Its hard to tell whats she's up to,but its not love for you.This is where guys get in trouble,but your red flags are not as bright as some.But that visa thing,thats red as they get.
So this is why your down on agencies?It can happen and probably is more likely to happen with an agency girl.A girl that wasn't even trying to meet gringos wouldn't be likely to act like this it is true.But there are good girls at the agencies.Lots of them.The main problem is you have to wade through the others and it can be shark infested.
Watch out for the questionable girls.Don't let their beauty  dumb down your judgement.
Also,I know H2oh well.His situation was very unusual and he went through alot,but the girl(his wife) was always honest with him.No games.She was in difficult circumstances and it might be hard to believe she is a very good person,but she is.They are doing very well right now.She is good friends with my wife,they talk every day.

Good Luck Aaron.Be smart,I know you are.

Pete

[Wayne1]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

Aaron,

Ya know there is a good resource around this board all the time that I rarely see used.  The wives of the married guys in this group.

My wife and I have discussed this subject at great length.  This business about how a guy can find a good Latin women...
She told me that she thinks the best way is by networking.  Knowing someone down there, and letting them put the word out.  She says that people know alot of people, and it's real easy to get set up.  She thinks that many of the girls at the agencies are desperate and not good candidates for marriage.  That is her opinion....

Of course if you don't know anybody and are just heading down for the 1st time with less then stellar spanish, the options are fewer.

I realize this post is almost worthless in practicality, but it is interesting to get the girls take on things.

I've posted my story before, but I met my wife at LE.  She had been looking for an address on that street 6 mos. earlier and knocked on the agency door by accident.  They talked her into taking a photo and filling out a profile.  She quickly forgot that she ever did this.  To her surprise, 6 mos later she got her 1st call. I was the 1st guy that ever had her called.  Her picture was not that great, but I just had a feeling about her.

She is very beautiful, smart, and kind.  We are very very happy and coming up on our 1st anniversary.

So my point is that every girl comes to these agencies for different reasons.  Some out of curiosity, some by accident, some are lonely, and some are looking for a leg up.  The fact is that it only takes one.  She can be found anywhere.  You never meet the one till it happens.  It can take 15 minutes at an agency, or 15 years.  Only God or fate knows your timing.

I can honestly say that it will be worth it if it happens for you.

Wayne

Oh Yea, if you come to Costa Rica after mid Nov. let me know because we will be living there, running our new business.

[lswote]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

As you might have guessed, not everybody is going to agree with you.  I am guessing you knew that and just needed to say what you said for yourself, so that you got your thoughts concretely written down.

I think in an ideal world we would love to have a couple years to get to know our Latin women before marrying them, but many factors make that a tough one for many men.  First off is the cost of maintaining a relationship with a woman in another country.  You either pay the price in money spent visiting frequently or you pay the price in not seeing each other and relying on mail, email and phone, which is pretty unsatisfying in my opinion.  Another factor for many men in not wanting to take years before marrying is loneliness.  I know this is not true for every one, but it is certainly for me and many men I have talked to.  I am willing to take a certain amount of risk on a woman, rather than bear years more of loneliness.

As far as agencies, I think they are like everything, some are good and some are not.  Right now I am at Latin American Introductions in Bogota for 5 days and I just can´t say enough good things about these people.  I trust these people and believe they genuinely care about me and my hopes of meeting a latin wife.  I know there are agencies that are less reputable, but there are good ones too.  Also, to address you comment about educated, beautiful women (and even a lot of English speakers), Bogota has them.  The English speaking ones tend to be a little bit older, late 20´s to early 30´s and since you are 28 I believe, they may be a little older than you want.

The bottom line of course is that only you know what is best for you and you seem to have made up your mind that the agency route isn´t for you.  There are certainly a number of men on this board who will tell you that meeting women through letter writing or other means than an agency works just fine so I am sure you will succeed in your goals even without the agencies.

[LouieB]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

no reason to apologize for a rational position.  I am sure there are plenty of guys that marry a girl for nothing more than her looks.  I have read a few posts where disaster has struck because of the incompatibility of the couple.  I think education level is one of the key ingredients of compatibility.

I am pursuing the letter writing route rather than the agency scene.  in this way you can screen potential prospects prior to meeting them.  in the agency you simply meet them.  I felt cheesy the one time I did the agency thing when I was "interviewing" them as well.  

besides Colombian agency scene there are other destinations and methods you can use.  there are singles sites dedicated to latin america only where you pay a few bucks and get a 6 month membership.  they have women from all over latin america not just Colombia.  they also have profiles that provide a photo and personal description including education level.  and you speak Spanish so you can get into the mind of these women rather than just trying to get into their pants.  

I'm not talking about the agencies that sell addresses for $10 bucks a pop either.  there are sites like amigos.com where you pay $20 and have unfettered and unlimited access to all the women's emails for 6 months.

[Hamlet]

... in response to A Change of Heart, posted by Aaron on Sep 26, 2002

Aaron,

I have wrestled with the same dilemma.  Meanwhile, as someone who is well-versed in statistics, you know that your odds are increased if you look in many places.  Also, I imagine you would agree with me that even though agencies may not attract hoards of the types you are seeking, some will certainly go there.  On the other hand, if your analysis indicates the amount of time needed to find the kind of woman you want in agencies is greater than the likely benefit vis a vis other avenues, then certainly you should not go to agencies.

I have never visited an agency, but I have responded to ads on the internet, which allowed me to get to know women before meeting them.  This is yet another viable method.

And unless you are opposed to that method, you should consider Cuba.  The women who advertise from that country get virtually no responses from men (I met four personally there; three got one letter - mine - and one got two letters).  Thus there is no competition, and, in case you didn't know, Cuba has an excellent educational system and everyone over 40-some years of age has either a two-year technical degree or a five-year university degree or an advanced degree.  Cuba also has a well-blended racial mix of Europeans and Africans.

Hamlet

[Nico]

... in response to Re: A Change of Heart, posted by Hamlet on Sep 26, 2002

Although Hamlet is a very close friend, I would have to disagree on his referring you to Cuba. Do the women there get hardly any responses as Hamlets says? Yes. Are the women as educated as Hamlet professes? Yes again. However getting them out of the country is a whole other ballgame.Its nothing like bringing home say a Colombiana on a k-1. Big headaches!

[Nico]

... in response to Re: Re: A Change of Heart, posted by Nico on Sep 26, 2002

After just speaking with someone I know involved with a Cuban women,I realize I am not entirely correct. Evidently its only a pain in the ass to get them out of the country if they are in the medical profession as I guess Castro doesn't like losing people out of very good national medical system. As far as non medical profession women its appears as though you may be able to get those over on k-1's.

Nico

[Pete E]

... in response to Retraction, posted by Nico on Sep 26, 2002

Nick,
Well I guess that is one advantage of being a dictator.You can keep your proffessionals from bailing on you about the time they get educated.

Pete

[Hamlet]

... in response to Re: Retraction, posted by Pete E on Sep 26, 2002

Pete,

Those in the US military who are receive certain advanced degrees paid for the government or who receive flight training are required to work for the government for a certain number of years afterward so that the government is gets value out of the money they spent on the training.

The same is true for certain MDs who get US government financial assistance for their education in exchange for a commitment to work in an underserved area for a number of years.

This is not only logical, but fair.

In Cuba, a person who gets advanced training (e.g. medical school) has the same obligations.  After they have fulfilled their obligations, they are free to leave the country as is any other citizen.

Hamlet