Marriage requirements in Colombia.

[V_Man]

We wanted to have a Catholic wedding.
I am not a Catholic and so the future Mrs Vman went to the arch Bishop to ask permission. Well there was a lady there who is a sort of clerk for the church and she makes these calls. This lady told my sweet novia that God would never bless our union!!!   
You can only imagine how that made my girl feel!!! 
So my novia told her she will get married even if she has to go and see the Pope himself! The result of that was she got a meeting with the arch Bishop.
The arch Bishop said that since I was divorced (from a civil marriage) we could not have a catholic wedding unless a Catholic tribunal annulled my previous marriage. That would take about 2 years.

This seems total BS to me.
2 non-catholics get married in a civil ceremony and then divorced. Then we need to have that marriage annulled before I can remarry in the catholic church? WTF???
I have since discovered that there is no record of me even being baptised.
Hence the real situation is that 2 non-Christians (no religion) get married in a civil ceremony and then divorced. Then I need to have that marriage annulled by a Catholic tribual before I can remarry in the Catholic Church!!!! WTF???
On the one hand the Catholic church does not recognise a non-catholic civil wedding as a marriage under God. On the other hand I can not have a catholic wedding, because somehow under God I am still married!! WTF???

I thought I could get a letter from my local Catholic priest to clarify my status but I don't know if there is time for him to check everything out to his own satisfaction, write a letter and get it translated.

Any way clearly the church in Bogota simply doesn't want her to marry a non-catholic foreigner. It seems evident that they are just going to make it difficult for us.  So after having built up our hopes for a wedding ceremony and all we decided to proceed anyway with a civil wedding.

Now I discover that I need to file all the required documents for a civil wedding one month in advance.  . I did not know that. I have had some beaucractic set backs organising these documents and now I look unlikely that I can get them to Colombia one month prior to the wedding.

In the mean time I have paid for our honeymoon so I can't really change the wedding date.
OMG!!! What am I going to do?

Do they really need everything filed one month in advance for a civil wedding?
I am kinda screwed now.
We are going to end up having a celebration, then a honeymoon, then a quick civil wedding afterwards!!! WTF???   

[whitey]

Hey Vman ... something's not right with the one month thing ... have the future Mrs. Vman check with another notaria about the requirements.


My paperwork wasn't submitted until about 2 weeks in advance.  I think there is some kind of requirement to print a wedding announcement in the papers a week or 10 days in advance of the wedding.  The notaria takes care of it, and I think the idea is to inform the public in the event some other Mrs. Vmans start coming out of the woodwork.


I think there is also some other requirement to be physically in Colombia 4 days prior to the wedding.  I arrived 3 days before, so the notario fudged the date for me.


Don't go by what I say though ... have Mrs. Vman find a notaria that she likes, and get THEIR requirements.  But the good news is, you don't have to be ready a month in advance.


Buena suerte!

[Bob_S]

I'm thinkin' the local parish needs a new roof, and how much the rich gringo contributes to the effort will determine how quickly they can expedite the process to make your lady friend feel comfortable in marrying you in their building.  Shop around.  I'm sure you can find a little parish with a less expensive roof. (If you catch my drift.)

[DesmondID]

Different Notarias will have slightly different requirements, different parts of the country also have different requirements.. For example while Bogota requires notification in the newspaper Medellin does not.

I think your best option is to have your wife-to-be visit the nearest Notoria and explain the situation and let the give you the solution. If the first one can't work within your time frame and limitation go to the next one.. We went to three before we found one that we felt would work for us.

[benjio]

I'm thinkin' the local parish needs a new roof, and how much the rich gringo contributes to the effort will determine how quickly they can expedite the process to make your lady friend feel comfortable in marrying you in their building.  Shop around.  I'm sure you can find a little parish with a less expensive roof. (If you catch my drift.)

Bob read my mind with this reply. Even when dealing with clergy in Colombia, it's all about how generous you're willing to be and how much you REALLY want your marriage to be "blessed" by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church itself is like any other big, global corporation (no offense to anyone here that's Catholic). Much too big, bureaucratic, and seperated to enforce a single universal code of conduct that every single church follows to the T. Especially in Latin America. Bob gave some good advice. Look around more. An English friend of mine that married a girl from Pereira had the same trouble a year ago. He was baptised Evangelical Lutheran and the local Catholic Officials didn't want to "bless" his union. They ended up getting married at the church in Salento. Made for some much more scenic pictures anyway. I'm not sure they needed a new roof but I'm sure they found something to do with his generous contribution to the church. 
 
I have his email somewhere V_Man. PM me if you'd like to get in touch with him.

[robert angel]

In most nations, having connections and money can speed things up with the Catholic Church.
 
Outside of two royal families that have a different sort of ownership of their entire nation's land, the Catholic Church owns more land (acreage and and buildings) than anybody or anything on earth. And it's tax free.
 
Taking money to expedite marriages and anulments is just part of a business practice and the price varies from parish to parish. At our church, it used to be that the collection basket was passed once, but more and more, it's passed twice. Parochial school tuition costs have sky rocketed.
 
Priests taking a vow of poverty? The priest who married me the first time wore a gold rolex watch, given to him by a parishoner. When my first marriage was in trouble, I requested marriage counseling. The priest who succeeeded the one who married us--a 'Monsignor' at that, said he "wasn't comfortable" with marital counseling.
 
Although we live in the second most populous and prosperous parish in our entire state, I was told that due to budget cuts, we'd have to drive three hours to get counseling--never mind that they have an 8 story building that takes up an entire city block and sits half empty. It's in a prime area that is rapidly appreciating in value.
 
For a certain amount of money and by filling out a lot of sordid paperwork, dragging friends in to take sides and turn witness, I could buy an anulment and marry my second wife in the Catholic church here in the USA or abroad. My wife's family would LOVE a big church wedding back home and I might just do it one of these days--for THEM. I suppose if I contributed enough to pay for a new wing at our church's new school, the paperwork and 'evidence' requested would be less.
 
When the sex abuse scandal broke across the nation, the church wasted little time in closing down churches in rough neighborhoods, churches that generated little money. They said the money was needed to pay lawsuits and legal fees.
 
It really IS a business and making guys who want to marry a Catholic girl convert, holding against birth control, promoting more births and making more church collections, all are good business moves for the church.
 
Last week, I got a phone call in the middle of the day, asking if I would bake a cake for our church's latest fundraising effort. I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from saying: "I make a wicked devil's food cake--should I bring that?"

[Ray]

In most nations, having connections and money can speed things up with the Catholic Church.
 
Outside of two royal families that have a different sort of ownership of their entire nation's land, the Catholic Church owns more land (acreage and and buildings) than anybody or anything on earth. And it's tax free.
 
Taking money to expedite marriages and anulments is just part of a business practice and the price varies from parish to parish. At our church, it used to be that the collection basket was passed once, but more and more, it's passed twice. Parochial school tuition costs have sky rocketed.
 
Priests taking a vow of poverty? The priest who married me the first time wore a gold rolex watch, given to him by a parishoner. When my first marriage was in trouble, I requested marriage counseling. The priest who succeeeded the one who married us--a 'Monsignor' at that, said he "wasn't comfortable" with marital counseling.
 
Although we live in the second most populous and prosperous parish in our entire state, I was told that due to budget cuts, we'd have to drive three hours to get counseling--never mind that they have an 8 story building that takes up an entire city block and sits half empty. It's in a prime area that is rapidly appreciating in value.
 
For a certain amount of money and by filling out a lot of sordid paperwork, dragging friends in to take sides and turn witness, I could buy an anulment and marry my second wife in the Catholic church here in the USA or abroad. My wife's family would LOVE a big church wedding back home and I might just do it one of these days--for THEM. I suppose if I contributed enough to pay for a new wing at our church's new school, the paperwork and 'evidence' requested would be less.
 
When the sex abuse scandal broke across the nation, the church wasted little time in closing down churches in rough neighborhoods, churches that generated little money. They said the money was needed to pay lawsuits and legal fees.
 
It really IS a business and making guys who want to marry a Catholic girl convert, holding against birth control, promoting more births and making more church collections, all are good business moves for the church.

Last week, I got a phone call in the middle of the day, asking if I would bake a cake for our church's latest fundraising effort. I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from saying: "I make a wicked devil's food cake--should I bring that?"

 
Robert,
 
You are not only ignorant, but also full of crap...
 
 
 
 

[Ray]

 

The arch Bishop said that since I was divorced (from a civil marriage) we could not have a catholic wedding unless a Catholic tribunal annulled my previous marriage.

 
V_Man, that doesn't make sense.
 
I have never heard of a church tribunal annulling a civil marriage.
 
In your case, only the Archbishop's permission should be required. But since he is unwilling to give it, then you might try another diocese where the bishop is more lenient, or do the civil wedding and then have a Catholic Church wedding in your country later, if that is important to your wife.
 
 
Ray
 
 

[robert angel]

 
Robert,
 
You are not only ignorant, but also full of crap...
 
 

Yea Ray--and you're the next Pope....

[pchip]

Hey V-Man


I'm sorry to hear this, but if it's any consolation, you're not alone.  Same burocratic **** derailled our wedding...  Everything was prepped but we couldn't go and say the I-DO's   My fiancé was devastated by this (and still is)


Had a nice time in San Andres though ("honeymoon" location)...


Cheers!!!

[Fuzzyone]

We wanted to have a Catholic wedding.
I am not a Catholic and so the future Mrs Vman went to the arch Bishop to ask permission. Well there was a lady there who is a sort of clerk for the church and she makes these calls. This lady told my sweet novia that God would never bless our union!!!   
You can only imagine how that made my girl feel!!! 
So my novia told her she will get married even if she has to go and see the Pope himself! The result of that was she got a meeting with the arch Bishop.
The arch Bishop said that since I was divorced (from a civil marriage) we could not have a catholic wedding unless a Catholic tribunal annulled my previous marriage. That would take about 2 years.

This seems total BS to me.
2 non-catholics get married in a civil ceremony and then divorced. Then we need to have that marriage annulled before I can remarry in the catholic church? WTF???
I have since discovered that there is no record of me even being baptised.
Hence the real situation is that 2 non-Christians (no religion) get married in a civil ceremony and then divorced. Then I need to have that marriage annulled by a Catholic tribual before I can remarry in the Catholic Church!!!! WTF???
On the one hand the Catholic church does not recognise a non-catholic civil wedding as a marriage under God. On the other hand I can not have a catholic wedding, because somehow under God I am still married!! WTF???

I thought I could get a letter from my local Catholic priest to clarify my status but I don't know if there is time for him to check everything out to his own satisfaction, write a letter and get it translated.

Any way clearly the church in Bogota simply doesn't want her to marry a non-catholic foreigner. It seems evident that they are just going to make it difficult for us.  So after having built up our hopes for a wedding ceremony and all we decided to proceed anyway with a civil wedding.

Now I discover that I need to file all the required documents for a civil wedding one month in advance.  . I did not know that. I have had some beaucractic set backs organising these documents and now I look unlikely that I can get them to Colombia one month prior to the wedding.

In the mean time I have paid for our honeymoon so I can't really change the wedding date.
OMG!!! What am I going to do?

Do they really need everything filed one month in advance for a civil wedding?
I am kinda screwed now.
We are going to end up having a celebration, then a honeymoon, then a quick civil wedding afterwards!!! WTF???   

   V-man I got a annulment in about 6 months but mine was not a catholic wedding to start with so that might have helped.

[buencamino]

A close friend of mine married a caleña in a Catholic church in Cali. They had to solicit permission from the archbishop because he is not Catholic in fact he said he didn't belong to religeon. Getting permission was a cake walk. Had he stated he was a Methodist or some such there could have been a problem. The important issue for the Catholic church is that any children that result are raised Catholic. What made it easy was he didn't belong to a "competing" religion. 

[mudd]

B

ob read my mind with this reply. Even when dealing with clergy in Colombia, it's all about how generous you're willing to be and how much you REALLY want your marriage to be "blessed" by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church itself is like any other big, global corporation (no offense to anyone here that's Catholic). Much too big, bureaucratic, and seperated to enforce a single universal code of conduct that every single church follows to the T. Especially in Latin America. Bob gave some good advice. Look around more. An English friend of mine that married a girl from Pereira had the same trouble a year ago. He was baptised Evangelical Lutheran and the local Catholic Officials didn't want to "bless" his union. They ended up getting married at the church in Salento. Made for some much more scenic pictures anyway. I'm not sure they needed a new roof but I'm sure they found something to do with his generous contribution to the church.   

its ALWAYS  about the  $$$$$$ even in church.

[Micky]

I am truly sorry for anyone that has problems getting married in the Catholic church.  It is a crap shoot depending on the POV of parish, diocese,  priest,  bishop,  etc.  BUT -  these posts about "they do not like competition",  "well it depends on how much money you donate" -  is about enough  BS.  While certainly there are priests that are Aholes,  wheather it is a question of power or money,  do those things happen - absolutely.  The Church is not without error.  The Church is huge and things vary to degrees by country and culture.  That is the way it is.  You do not let a visitor to your home make the rules and run YOUR household. If you are not Catholic and want to be married in the Church (yes I understand,  it is for the wife)  then it is by their rules and ways.  If that is just too much for you to deal with,  the answer is simple,  stay out of predominately Catholic countries and do not date a women that is Catholic,  that is your solution.


Micky

[Fuzzyone]

  The Catholic church down there can might life mighty hard. I ended up getting married thru a notary and that was not easy everyone has a differnet requirement and you end up buying presents to lub the process. If you do not then you never will get married down there. I guess it is the price. I really wanted to marry my girl down there so her family could have a big party which ended up getting wiped out with it raining all day and half the night!

[benjio]

  The Catholic church down there can might life mighty hard. I ended up getting married thru a notary and that was not easy everyone has a differnet requirement and you end up buying presents to lub the process. If you do not then you never will get married down there. I guess it is the price. I really wanted to marry my girl down there so her family could have a big party which ended up getting wiped out with it raining all day and half the night!

A buddy of mine did kind of a mock wedding and reception for his girl's family in Santa Marta then just brought her to the states on a fiance visa and did it officially there. His girlfriend told him that she couldn't leave Colombia with a man without being married to him because it would shame her family. After months of trying to do it by the book in Colombia, with plenty of instances of a donation being "suggested" by local officials and clergy, he just gave up. He went all out with the front though...live band, a seafood buffet...and no one but her parents were aware of the fact that it wasn't a real ceremony. Her extended family probably still has no idea. This is probably how I'd get it done if I was about to get married to a Catholic girl and the church was giving me problems. At least if she agreed with it. I'm Southern Baptist though, and I'm not renouncing that for anyone or anything.

[Alabamaboy!]

Hey Vman ... something's not right with the one month thing ... have the future Mrs. Vman check with another notaria about the requirements.


My paperwork wasn't submitted until about 2 weeks in advance.  I think there is some kind of requirement to print a wedding announcement in the papers a week or 10 days in advance of the wedding.  The notaria takes care of it, and I think the idea is to inform the public in the event some other Mrs. Vmans start coming out of the woodwork.


I think there is also some other requirement to be physically in Colombia 4 days prior to the wedding.  I arrived 3 days before, so the notario fudged the date for me.


Don't go by what I say though ... have Mrs. Vman find a notaria that she likes, and get THEIR requirements.  But the good news is, you don't have to be ready a month in advance.


Buena suerte!

I got married in Colombia about 2 years ago. I remember something about the 10 day thing for the newspaper, but in the end they were cool with like 5 days or something like that. I never heard anything about the requirement to be in Colombia 4 days before the ceremony. I arrived the day before the ceremony and did not have any problems. We did have to beg them a bit to consider scanned copies of my documents which were submitted ahead of time, but then had to bring the originals in hand to the ceremony or they would cancel the ceremony. Another thing was that they required a certified translator to be there if you were not 100% fluent in Spanish. My wife had mistakenly thought it would not be so strict, so we did not have one. My Spanish is about 70% or so, and the Notary guy had to call a certified translator on his cell phone to translate things while on speaker phone! After a couple minutes, he asked me what the guy was saying to see if I understood things enough. The notary was satisfied with my comprehension level so then hung up the call with the translator.

It was a nightmare with all the BS that Colombia requires to get married. But in the end it was all worth it, because she was able to get married in her own country with her family present and we had a really nice party afterwards. It was a blast.

As I understand it, each Notaria has some latitude to enforce things the way he sees fit. He is like a judge or something. So some things they let us slide on a bit, and other things they seemed to be very tough on. We shopped around a bit for someone who would play ball a little bit.

[V_Man]

We gave up on the catholic wedding in Colombia a few months ago. We'll do that here one day. I may even convert one day- but I'm not going to pretend to convert in a rush to have a Catholic wedding in Colombia.


I think they got the impression I had a 'competing' religion even though that is not the case.



We have since being having several issues with the requirements for a civil wedding. It is becoming rediculous to me.


So at the moment we are going to have the big party etc in Colombia and then we are going to a third country to get married. Stuff Colombian laws! Why would I jump through all those hoops when a quick plane trip is so much cheaper, faster and easier? Plus I don't have "bend" any laws. It's a no brainer.


If we somehow find a way to have a civil wedding in Colombia then fine but I'm not going to bust my balls to achieve it. No wonder Colombians are always trying to find ways to get around laws. Who wouldn't?


Sorry guys to vent a little frustration. I hope I didn't offend any lovers of Colombian laws. I know they can make and enforce any law they like. Only thing is I haven't met or read of a single person who agrees with some of these laws. In fact I've read articles from Colombian lawyers that point out how retarded one of these laws is. So OK I shouldn't express my views of another countries laws. But equally it is an international world and so I'll just go with my money to do it in another country.

[whitey]

Hey V_Man ... what problems are you having with the civil wedding process?  Maybe someone here can help?


The paperwork was a bit of a pain, but certainly not insurmountable and a lot less costly than flying to another country.  I would guess the paperwork hoops in Oz would be very similar to Canada?  I think it's a little easier for Americans as the US is part of the apostille convention.

[Micky]

VM -

No need to apologise since that is why we are here.  Colombia is NOT a nation of laws,  it is a nation of work around.  I am kind of with Whitey on this,  but because of the nature of the beast it is not system of straight X's and O's.  NOT putting down your wife (future) or her family,  but Colombians,  by and large, are not the best at thinking outside the box.  They very much have a "heard mentality"  and conditioning to just accept a no.  Somewhere there IS a notaria that WILL make it happen for an extra 500,000.  It is your family's' job to find him.  But your idea of going to another country is good,  but there again,  you have to find one that fits the requirements - one,  the marriage AND will either issue a visa to a Colombian or a visa is not required.
The best to you and keep us posted.

Micky

[V_Man]

i am experiencing what you are saying about the Colombian mind set when it comes to working through problems. However apparently I am arrogant for thinking there are ways around Colombian laws rather than just accepting everything I am first told at face value. 


OK I don't like giving out information that is too personal but here goes.


1. The first issue is largely my fault. For complex reasons I have not got my final divorce certificate. I'm divorced but don't have the certificate. So it is a race to get that organised in time. That is a long story but I should have gone through all this years ago so it is my fault. Unfortunately I was belatedly told the notary needs it one month prior to the wedding. Well that is simply impossible. I will have it in my hand. However I can not get an apposilled, translated certificate couriered to Bogota in time. It wont happen. 


All the other certifcates I have ready to go. E.g. brith certificate apposilled and translated.
I'd like to get the ball rolling with what I have now but my girl says they wil not accept it without all the certificates ready. 


2. I had a child in a former life and now I have been told that I need to hire a lawyer through the courts in Colombia to create el inventario solemne de bienes. This process takes 3 months. Although that would be impossible for them to create since I have never owned a single thing in Colombia and I am not going to list my assets for some court registry in Colombia. Not in a thousand years. The concept of this is to try and protect a child's property from a new wife. However in practice that is deeply flawed even within Colombia.

This el inventario solemne de bienes has absolutely no legal relevance in Australia. It wouldn't make a bind bit of difference under any circumstances under Austalian law. Probably not under any country other than Colombia in fact.

I don't have 3 months and the entire thing is a pointless waste of time and money. 
So to get around this we simply lie and say I never had a child. Problem solved by making false a declaration. Wonderful!

3. We are already going to a 3rd country after the big party. She doesn't need a visa. The requirements are simple. It is efficent, not expensive and simple. The certificate will be in English so I don't need to wait for an offical translated copy. I believe that from this country it will not even need to be aposilled. So, for me, it's a more valuable document in fact.


Keep in mind that the costs for me to come back to Colombia in 3 months are enormous. Even if I could get the time off work.

Guys I'm telling you it is quicker, easier, safer, more relaxed, more comfortable and cheaper to get married in a 3rd country.
OK a plane fare and hotel is going to cost money, but when you add up all the true costs in Colombia it works out. Plus you get a great romantic trip somewhere.
Plus you do not have to lie, cheat, bribe, break laws and compromise your values as you have to in Colombia.

I talked about all this with a Colombian friend who replied: "Welcome to my world!"

[Micky]

VM -

Sounds like you are doing what you have to in order to make it happen.  I did laugh out loud with your Colombian friends "welcome to my world",  it is just so true.  I have always been a law abiding person,  do not break the rules,  never even go to the "gray areas",  but living here I do not hesitate for a second to do "whatever"  to get it done.
Good on you for your posts about this.  The kind of post that will certainly help someone else in the future.  Keep us posted on things after the knot is tied.  The very best to you brother.

Micky

[robert angel]

In most nations, having connections and money can speed things up with the Catholic Church.

 
Taking money to expedite marriages and anulments is just part of a business practice and the price varies from parish to parish.
 
For a certain amount of money and by filling out a lot of sordid paperwork, dragging friends in to take sides and turn witness, I could buy an anulment and marry my second wife in the Catholic church here in the USA or abroad. My wife's family would LOVE a big church wedding back home and I might just do it one of these days--for THEM. I suppose if I contributed enough to pay for a new wing at our church's new school, the paperwork and 'evidence' requested would be less.

 
It really IS a business and making guys who want to marry a Catholic girl convert, holding against birth control, promoting more births and making more church collections, all are good business moves for the church.
 

It's pretty much the same in a lot of places unfortunately. In situations like this in the Philippines, paying off the right people in the church and govt. can make 'miracles' happen quickly.

[V_Man]

VM -

Sounds like you are doing what you have to in order to make it happen.  I did laugh out loud with your Colombian friends "welcome to my world",  it is just so true.  I have always been a law abiding person,  do not break the rules,  never even go to the "gray areas",  but living here I do not hesitate for a second to do "whatever"  to get it done.
Good on you for your posts about this.  The kind of post that will certainly help someone else in the future.  Keep us posted on things after the knot is tied.  The very best to you brother.

Micky

Thank you so much Micky. That means a lot comming from someone who lives there.

[whitey]

1. The first issue is largely my fault. For complex reasons I have not got my final divorce certificate. I'm divorced but don't have the certificate. So it is a race to get that organised in time. That is a long story but I should have gone through all this years ago so it is my fault. Unfortunately I was belatedly told the notary needs it one month prior to the wedding. Well that is simply impossible. I will have it in my hand. However I can not get an apposilled, translated certificate couriered to Bogota in time. It wont happen. 


All the other certifcates I have ready to go. E.g. brith certificate apposilled and translated.
I'd like to get the ball rolling with what I have now but my girl says they wil not accept it without all the certificates ready. 

Hey V_Man ... sorry to hear about your difficulties.


Something is wrong with the above ... if you and your fiance act quickly, you can probably pull off the Colombian wedding if you still want to.


We didn't get all of my original documents (including the divorce certificate) to the notaria until about 2 weeks before the wedding ... one month is crazy.  You should be able to send what originals you have, plus a photocopy of the divorce certificate, and let the notario know the original will be there by X days before the wedding.  They won't have the original of your passport until you arrive - they should be able to work with a copy of the divorce certificate to get things started.


It's better also to have your documents translated by the notaria ... much cheaper and no chance of a dispute.


I'd recommend you have your fiance start looking for another notario that is more reasonable.  My wife went to 3 until she found one she liked.


Suerte amigo ...