Arizona Immigration Enforcement Law

[Kiltboy1]

Let's say I break into your house.

Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

But I say, 'No! I like it here. It's better than my house. I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

So it's OK with you that:

You are required to let me stay in your house.

You are required to feed me.

You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan.

You are required to educate my kids.

You are required to provide other benefits to me & to my family.

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, and I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so that you can communicate with me.

Who is it again you're calling sick, uneducated, out of touch with reality, and bigoted?

Well Put Jeff. Totally correct and a great analogy

KB

[jm21-2]

             Isn't that the same argument used to defend slavery? Some would say slavery worked fine but was done away with also.Lets bring more foreigners here to be exploited.
I don't want to pay too much for food.

             Researcher
             

Slavery was involuntary. Foreign labor is voluntary. The jobs we are offering are ones that few Americans want but that seem pretty good to them, so they're willing to risk border crossings and working illegally to get them. There's no exploitation there.

It's like when American corps bring jobs to other countries that have poor working conditions compared to the US. People here talk about exploiting the foreigners but often the jobs are what is keeping them from starvation.

International trade is a win-win. We get cheap products and they get a job.

Wonderful thing about the market is that it's all voluntary. I was reading Rob Roy a while back and there's a discourse in at at a few points on how good trade is. It enriches everyone and keeps nations from fighting with each other. Strange and sad how we are leaving that way of thinking behind.

There is a union here suing the state here because volunteers did a clean-up project and the state allowed them to instead of hiring workers. That's what our country is coming to. Absolute protectionism for over-paid jobs.

[Shadow_mas]

Slavery was involuntary. Foreign labor is voluntary. The jobs we are offering are ones that few Americans want but that seem pretty good to them, so they're willing to risk border crossings and working illegally to get them. There's no exploitation there.

It's like when American corps bring jobs to other countries that have poor working conditions compared to the US. People here talk about exploiting the foreigners but often the jobs are what is keeping them from starvation.

International trade is a win-win. We get cheap products and they get a job.

Wonderful thing about the market is that it's all voluntary. I was reading Rob Roy a while back and there's a discourse in at at a few points on how good trade is. It enriches everyone and keeps nations from fighting with each other. Strange and sad how we are leaving that way of thinking behind.

There is a union here suing the state here because volunteers did a clean-up project and the state allowed them to instead of hiring workers. That's what our country is coming to. Absolute protectionism for over-paid jobs.

There is no objection in using trade or foreign workers, however when the aim is to pay them to 'keep them from starvation' it is a clear form of exploitation.
When you pay the workers for a job so they can have equal life standard in their country as workers in your country would have, then there is no exploitation and products would still be cheaper.
Paying them less because you can is exploiting their situation.

[Jeff S]

I disagree with this completely. In business you pay what the market will bear. Face it, labor is a commodity just like steel or nuts and bolts. You don't offer to pay more for Chinese bolts just because of what local bolts are priced. Labor is the same way, you pay only as much as you need to to get the quality labor you need to get the job done. The savings you make can be used to lower the price and sell more of your products, do more R&D to introduce new products, or whatever the owners (stockholders) wish. Only a combination of the first two are what's needed for long term survival.

Suggesting that somehow your workers in a foreign land need to have the same amenities as what your local workers have, doesn't hold water either. When I ran a twin plant operation, one outside of Los Angeles and the other in Tijuana, all of my shop people in the US drove cars to work and lived in apartments with air conditioning. In Tijuana, none did. Only the managers and engineers had cars. To suggest I be benevolent and pay the workers enough so they could afford cars ignores the fact that I'd have to raise prices because my competitors sure weren't going to pay their foreign workers that, and that would mean that I'd sell less and have less jobs, maybe eventually no jobs. Is is somehow more noble to have no jobs that pay $10,000 a year, or 200 jobs that pay 5,000 a year?

The truth was I paid more than many of the maquialdoras in the area because I wanted to attract and keep good employees. I treated them well with picnics, parties, bonuses, loans, help with their legal problem and so on, for exactly the same reason. There was no overseers cracking whips and hauling people off to get locked in the box for low production. In fact the opposite was true, the line out the door when I hung a sign "se solicita persona" was longer than anyone else's.

It is not my job, nor any government's job to decide what the prices of goods are services should be  - only the market's. EVERY TIME the government or some do-gooders try to control wages, prices they make matters worse, not better. Put in rent control - no more places to rent, raise minimum wage - destroy jobs, protect markets with tariffs - run businesses out of the country. It just can't be done no matter how good the intentions of those trying. People have been trying for hundreds of years and it has failed every time for hundreds of years. Let the market decide and everyone wins.

Take a poor farming town in China and move a factory there. As long as you pay more than some of the poor farmers make they'll come to work, some will get raises as they become supervisors, technical trained people, managers. Not only that but it frees up more land for the other farmers to work to make more. The workers have more money so they can afford to get someone to cut their hair, buy better scooters that have to be sold and maintained and on and on so the whole town improves. Is this exploitation because the guy sweeping the floor can't afford 2 color TVs that the janitor in Indianapolis has? If you had to, it would eliminate any advantage of opening a factory there in the first place, so you keep it where it is in Indianapolis, raise prices, sell less and have to lay off that janitor anyway. A rising tide lifts all ships and a falling one grounds many.

[CROW]

Looks like those Mexicans really have some of you worked up.
Personally I'd gladly live with the illegals in the US compared to the legal immigrate Muslums in France. Those immigrants riot and cause all kinds of problems much much worst than the mexicans IMHO.

[Researcher]

Slavery was involuntary. Foreign labor is voluntary. The jobs we are offering are ones that few Americans want but that seem pretty good to them, so they're willing to risk border crossings and working illegally to get them. There's no exploitation there.

It's like when American corps bring jobs to other countries that have poor working conditions compared to the US. People here talk about exploiting the foreigners but often the jobs are what is keeping them from starvation.

International trade is a win-win. We get cheap products and they get a job.

Wonderful thing about the market is that it's all voluntary. I was reading Rob Roy a while back and there's a discourse in at at a few points on how good trade is. It enriches everyone and keeps nations from fighting with each other. Strange and sad how we are leaving that way of thinking behind.

        I don't know what kind of work you do but I have seen illegals doing jobs that pay decent and alot of locals would love to have.

        Volunteer? As poor as these Mexicans are it looks like they have no choice.Yes, they are being exploited.In a free market there should be a level playing field.

        This free market talk may not be the exact same talk as used to defend slavery but it is definitely the same brand of baloney, its called hogwash.

       


       Researcher

[Jeff S]

Not hogwash. Econ 101. You should check it out some time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/economics/price-controls/4472-What-Causes-Unemployment.html

Is there something you'd like to offer as an alternative viewpoint besides "hogwash?" What part? How should labor be priced? Care to give any examples from businesses you've run?

[jm21-2]

        I don't know what kind of work you do but I have seen illegals doing jobs that pay decent and alot of locals would love to have.

        Volunteer? As poor as these Mexicans are it looks like they have no choice.Yes, they are being exploited.In a free market there should be a level playing field.

        This free market talk may not be the exact same talk as used to defend slavery but it is definitely the same brand of baloney, its called hogwash.

       


       Researcher

Are you kidding me? Unionized flaggers/general laborers here in WA complain about getting paid $19 per hour. Do you really think USCs want to get paid $6-7/hour for farm work?

It's not a level playing field. It's the market. Some employees bring more to the table than others. How is that bad?

[Researcher]

Are you kidding me? Unionized flaggers/general laborers here in WA complain about getting paid $19 per hour. Do you really think USCs want to get paid $6-7/hour for farm work?

It's not a level playing field. It's the market. Some employees bring more to the table than others. How is that bad?

                Not all illegals are doing farm work.I know some personally and they make $15/hr doing jobs that normally pay more.There are plenty of people out of work who would take those jobs.Illegals usually get paid in cash so the employer doesn't worry about providing health insurance, 410k and other benefits.People living and working here legally have those thing to think about not to mention taxes.How is that fair?

               Everyone likes to believe in the free market because it is a simple concept.Everything takes care of itself.I wish it were that simple but it isn't.IMO, greed is good but excessive greed isn't.Which is why we need regulations and laws to keep the playing field level.I don't need to run a business to know this.My view is from the ever shrinking middle class.The next time you guys go to visit one of these third world countries take notes on how the people there live.It'll come in handy for the future.


            Researcher

[Dave H]

Looks like those Mexicans really have some of you worked up.
Personally I'd gladly live with the illegals in the US compared to the legal immigrate Muslums in France. Those immigrants riot and cause all kinds of problems much much worst than the mexicans IMHO.

It doesn't matter who was here first (probably the Vikings)...through wars, treaties, and purchases, the land now belongs to the United States of America!


I actually like the Mexicans that I know! We are talking "ILLEGAL ALIENS," here, ALL, not just illegal Mexicans who happen to be the largest percentage!  If we were specifically talking about "illegal Canadians" or "illegal English" would liberals even care to protest?   HELL NO! Yet we are talking about these people as well! This whole anti-Mexican/anti -brown argument is totally ridiculous liberal/ La Raza BULL-SH-IT!  I don't think anyone here who is married to or seeking a foreign bride or husband has anything against legal immigration from Mexico or anyplace else...or brown skin for that matter! Many here are marrying people of different races, not just mestizo or of mixed race. A foreign spouse of an "American" (that's what citizens of the USA are called, not all people from North, Central or South America) will quite likely  become a legal immigrant to the US.

Why do we have to settle for the lesser of two evils? Why does it have to be an "either - or" choice? France can keep their legal Muslim immigrant problem for all I care and we can deport all illegal aliens from the USA! The Federal Government needs to start enforcing the laws that it created and are on its books! Instead it makes false promises, then looks the other way. The Feds threaten concerned, law abiding citizens and file lawsuits in an attempt to block states who are only trying to survive by doing the Federal Government's job for them, in cleaning up the mess in their state that the Feds helped create...through neglect and unwillingness to  adequately enforce illegal immigration laws and border security, avoiding the upgrade of border security systems, and turning a blind eye to drug smuggling across the Mexican border!!!

I lived and worked in South Florida for over 40 years (20 with the Department of Public Safety), so I know a thing or two about illegal immigration and the problems that comes with it. Eventually, I also  learned that yesterday's "illegal immigrant" is "tomorrow's competition." They and their children are given unfair advantages in education and jobs (both in government and in the private sector) over both Black and White US Citizens! They don't stick to picking grapes or tomatoes for very long. When something better comes along, they grab it and bring their friends and relatives along! Nepotism is a time honored tradition among Hispanics...it is known as the "Padrino System." They create job requirements that only they can fill. It quite often includes being "bi-lingual," but that doesn't include Haitian Creole, Portuguese, French, German, Chinese, or any other languages besides Spanish and English.

However, being  "bi-lingual," and speaking Spanish didn't help this gringo in the least! They have ways around it... But, I accidentally discovered a way to beat the system...at least for my kids. None of my kids are from AW's. They are all classified as Hispanic! So far it has really paid big dividends for my adult sons! If Geraldo calls his 1/4 Hispanic sons "Latinos"...then I guess my 1/2 Hispanic children certainly qualify as "Latinos" too!

With all that said, I still support organized, fair, legal immigration...but feel a priority should be to be placed on filing America's skill needs first...if low skilled workers are needed, so be it!

Feliz Navidad to all and to all Buenas Noches!

Dave AKA "Papá Noel"

[Shadow_mas]

I disagree with this completely. In business you pay what the market will bear. Face it, labor is a commodity just like steel or nuts and bolts.

If people would work for you while not being able to feeds them selves properly on the salary they ask, causing a high death rate under your employees, would you still pay them just that ?

Note that I partially agree with you, that if you have workders in China and you would put them on a salary whre they can afford equal lifestyle to USA (legal) workers they would be getting a lifestyle outside their class.
What I mean here was an equal standard of living. If your workers in the US are middle class, your workers in China should be able to reach middle class as well. Middle class in China is not having two cars, a large home with all amenities, but can afford an apartment, bicycle and have their child.
As such you probably did it correct.

[Researcher]

I disagree with this completely. In business you pay what the market will bear. Face it, labor is a commodity just like steel or nuts and bolts.

    I actually agree with this statement.That's why if someone hires an illegal alien they should be treated as if they have stolen something like steel or nuts and bolts.The last time I checked that was illegal also.I have nothing against businesses doing what they need to do to get ahead but hiring illegals while other companies don't isn't playing by the rules.


   Researcher

[Jeff S]

If people would work for you while not being able to feeds them selves properly on the salary they ask, causing a high death rate under your employees, would you still pay them just that ?

Note that I partially agree with you, that if you have workders in China and you would put them on a salary whre they can afford equal lifestyle to USA (legal) workers they would be getting a lifestyle outside their class.
What I mean here was an equal standard of living. If your workers in the US are middle class, your workers in China should be able to reach middle class as well. Middle class in China is not having two cars, a large home with all amenities, but can afford an apartment, bicycle and have their child.
As such you probably did it correct.

Well, if you didn't pay enough for people to survive, they probably wouldn't work there long. Turnover and training is a big cost. That's why I paid more than others in the area, to get and keep the best, so everyone wanted to work there. My point was that it was relevant to the local area, and completely irrelevant to some other. What constitutes good pay for basic factory labor in Ghana is different from Long Island New York, is different from Romania is different from China, is different from Tijuana.

Same is true for engineers, sales people, IT people and so on. It's not for you as the person hiring them to evaluate their lifestyles or relative class in the neighborhood, but rather to pay enough to attract and keep the quality of talent you need. If you pay the same or more than others in your area for a network engineer, the lifestyle aspect will work itself out all by itself. If you pay him less, you won't have him long.

[Dave H]

Screw it...On second thought, I think I will just stay in the Philippines where our illegal immigrants are Chinese and Korean businessmen who sell me the things I want at a low price! 

Dave

[Shadow_mas]

Well, if you didn't pay enough for people to survive, they probably wouldn't work there long. Turnover and training is a big cost. That's why I paid more than others in the area, to get and keep the best, so everyone wanted to work there. My point was that it was relevant to the local area, and completely irrelevant to some other. What constitutes good pay for basic factory labor in Ghana is different from Long Island New York, is different from Romania is different from China, is different from Tijuana.

Same is true for engineers, sales people, IT people and so on. It's not for you as the person hiring them to evaluate their lifestyles or relative class in the neighborhood, but rather to pay enough to attract and keep the quality of talent you need. If you pay the same or more than others in your area for a network engineer, the lifestyle aspect will work itself out all by itself. If you pay him less, you won't have him long.

And that is the difference between being able to have good products at lower cost and exploitation. I have dealt with the Far East, and there as well the factories that were the best to deal with were the ones that people liked to work for. They would not offer the lowest price, but instead would offer stable quality and delivery, which is in the long run more important.

[Capstone]

Note that I partially agree with you, that if you have workders in China and you would put them on a salary whre they can afford equal lifestyle to USA (legal) workers they would be getting a lifestyle outside their class.
What I mean here was an equal standard of living. If your workers in the US are middle class, your workers in China should be able to reach middle class as well. Middle class in China is not having two cars, a large home with all amenities, but can afford an apartment, bicycle and have their child.
As such you probably did it correct.

Actually middle class in China is owning 1 or 2 cars, living in a large high rise apartment with all the amenities which is located in a nice city center location, etc. But there is no way that an average Chinese factory worker would ever be considered anywhere near middle class. Non skilled labor or even skilled labor not requiring a formal college education is plentiful and so there is no need to pay middle class salaries for most factory type work. Factory engineers would command a middle class salary but not most of the workers down on the factory floor.

[jm21-2]

                Not all illegals are doing farm work.I know some personally and they make $15/hr doing jobs that normally pay more.There are plenty of people out of work who would take those jobs.Illegals usually get paid in cash so the employer doesn't worry about providing health insurance, 410k and other benefits.People living and working here legally have those thing to think about not to mention taxes.How is that fair?

               Everyone likes to believe in the free market because it is a simple concept.Everything takes care of itself.I wish it were that simple but it isn't.IMO, greed is good but excessive greed isn't.Which is why we need regulations and laws to keep the playing field level.I don't need to run a business to know this.My view is from the ever shrinking middle class.The next time you guys go to visit one of these third world countries take notes on how the people there live.It'll come in handy for the future.


            Researcher

Why does every worker need health insurance, 401ks, etc? Employer provided health car was, is, and always will be a bad idea. Now paying in cash, there's a real benefit to the employer because he doesn't have to do social security contributions. But that's a relatively small amount.

The market, like most good things, is simple on its face but very complex under the surface. If you have excessive greed and try to rip people off you will most likely not be successful in the long term.

Yes, unionization and regulation created an artificially large middle class, just as government programs like freddie mac and fannie mae artificially increased home ownership. All that worked out really great. Now we have a collapsed housing market because people were given loans too easily, a very small manufacturing base, something over 20% of people work for the government, and close to 40% of most people's income goes to the myriad of taxes (both seen and unseen). At the same time countries with fewer regulations on the market such as HK and Taiwan have boomed dramatically, rising from basically refugee camps to near first-world lifestyles. And our problem is not enough regulation?

The biggest problem with capitalism is when it turns to crony capitalism due to government interference. We're at a state where companies see a better return from investing in lobbyists than they do in building factories or developing new technology. Very sad.

[Researcher]

     We have the financial situation we are in because the government didn't regulate the free market.We have unions because of poor working conditions and companies not paying a wage people couldn't live on.

      Still, there is nothing wrong with the free market as long as there is a level playing field and everyone is above board.When companies and employers resort to illegal tactics, like hiring illegal aliens then what is next?....Tax evasion, stealing,etc. The problem is that the line between illlegal and legal gets blurred in the name of competition.

     Employer health care has always been a good idea.Expensive health care costs is the leading care of people going bankrupt, if I recall correctly.

  Researcher
     

[jm21-2]

There are some pretty good arguments out there that the cause of the economic collapse was the government doing too much meddling in the economy (e.g. creating a secondary mortgage market, lending to borrowers who wouldn't ordinarily be able to get a mortgage, etc.).

How is the line blurred? Labor is labor. A company can just as easily hire a USC under the table as he can illegals. What you're asking for is special protection for USCs and legal immigrants, which is not a level playing field. You create an artificial legal distinction (this person is illegal and this is not) and then use it as a tool to discriminate against cheap foreign labor and force companies to increase compensation because they now have to hire more demanding USC and legal immigrant workers. That is definitely not a free market approach nor is it somehow creating a level playing field.

Americans switch jobs all the time, what sense does it make that they change insurance companies every time? It makes a hell of a lot more sense to have some extra cash and pay for your own. Employer-based health insurance is basically just tax evasion. The employer gets a write-off and the employee doesn't have to pay taxes on the insurance. If they got extra salary with which to buy their own personal insurance it would be taxed. Not to mention how these caddilac insurance plans have contributed greatly to how screwed up our health system is. EDIT: not to mention how it's used by certain groups to make it seem like their compensation is lower....so they can whine about how low their salary is and ask for a raise despite the fact that there overall compensation (when you include vacation time, health insurance, etc.) is very high.

[piglett]

And with the money we saved by not paying for all this security that doesn't really work well anyways, we could do something that was more beneficial. Like I dunno, end world hunger. And then people would like us and we wouldn't have to worry as much.

I only know 1 way to end world hunger........
that would involve us the U.S. taking over EVERY African,South American, & Middle Eastern country( minus the 2 that we have already taken over)
The problem is this....... tin horn two bit dictators use hunger to keep themselves in power. After all if you are worried that you may not get to eat tomorrow your probably not thinking "how can i overthrow the current government?"
So to end world hunger we would basically have to take over 3/4 of the world. Don't see that happening any time soon.

When was the last time you heard that they were building huge factory's in an African country?
After all labor is dirt cheep so why isn't it being done ?
Answer because the tin horns want to keep the people under compleat control & jobs & factory's just don't fit that well into their plans. 

I welcome all comments
piglett

[piglett]

  This issue is bound to come to a head and there will be major trouble when it does, regardless of what is decided.  One thing that could put this issue on the back burner would be a major event, like a new war.
Fathertime!

I second that motion, If an illegal (man) wants to sign up for the U.S. military for a period of 4 to 6 years then hell yes he & his family are all welcome to stay as long as they all learn English in the time period. If there was a MAJOR shooting war (not this little thing in Iraq & Afghanistan) an extra 5 million men in uniform could be really handy.

piglett

[jm21-2]

I only know 1 way to end world hunger........
that would involve us the U.S. taking over EVERY African,South American, & Middle Eastern country( minus the 2 that we have already taken over)
The problem is this....... tin horn two bit dictators use hunger to keep themselves in power. After all if you are worried that you may not get to eat tomorrow your probably not thinking "how can i overthrow the current government?"
So to end world hunger we would basically have to take over 3/4 of the world. Don't see that happening any time soon.

When was the last time you heard that they were building huge factory's in an African country?
After all labor is dirt cheep so why isn't it being done ?
Answer because the tin horns want to keep the people under compleat control & jobs & factory's just don't fit that well into their plans. 

I welcome all comments
piglett

Yep, that's the problem. Even if you take over the country rogue groups would screw it up. Look how in Afghanistan we are having so many problems with charitable donations from the US going to fund the Taliban.

But, the estimated cost to stop world hunger (if it worked) to stop world hunger is around $30 billion/year. You can do a [snip]load of good for the price of sealing the borders...or better yet use it to pay off our debt. Why do people keep inventing more ways to spend huge amounts of government money when we already have such enormous debts. We should be cutting spending, not accelerating it.

[piglett]

But, the estimated cost to stop world hunger (if it worked) to stop world hunger is around $30 billion/year.

Dude that # would not even cover the shipping costs. the last time i checked they wanted 6K for one container from California to Asia. it would take million of containers to feed 1/2 of the worlds population.
2ND problem is what would the reaction be if we here started feeding everyone in South America ect. ect.
the locals would feel that they were about to loose control & their supreme power over the lower classes.War would break out between us or the local tin horns would steel all the food (like they did in Samolia) & give it to their troops/friends in power. the whole deal would turn 2 sh*t real quick.    

You can do a [snip]load of good for the price of sealing the borders...or better yet use it to pay off our debt. Why do people keep inventing more ways to spend huge amounts of government money when we already have such enormous debts. We should be cutting spending, not accelerating it.

30 billion will do almost nothing to the national debt.
hell we are spend something around 30 billion a DAY ( or should i say over spend)

this whole house of cards will soon fall down
http://pad39a.com/gene/cycle.html
I just hope there's not too much blood in the streets when the sh*t all goes to hell.
I think I'll stay out of the large city's when it looks like it about to happen.
I would bet good money that certain groups in this country
that are used to getting there monthly fill from the government ta ta will be some unhappy & mite resort to burning  their/our city's down to the ground.


piglett

[Researcher]

There are some pretty good arguments out there that the cause of the economic collapse was the government doing too much meddling in the economy (e.g. creating a secondary mortgage market, lending to borrowers who wouldn't ordinarily be able to get a mortgage, etc.).

How is the line blurred? Labor is labor. A company can just as easily hire a USC under the table as he can illegals. What you're asking for is special protection for USCs and legal immigrants, which is not a level playing field. You create an artificial legal distinction (this person is illegal and this is not) and then use it as a tool to discriminate against cheap foreign labor and force companies to increase compensation because they now have to hire more demanding USC and legal immigrant workers. That is definitely not a free market approach nor is it somehow creating a level playing field.

Americans switch jobs all the time, what sense does it make that they change insurance companies every time? It makes a hell of a lot more sense to have some extra cash and pay for your own. Employer-based health insurance is basically just tax evasion. The employer gets a write-off and the employee doesn't have to pay taxes on the insurance. If they got extra salary with which to buy their own personal insurance it would be taxed. Not to mention how these caddilac insurance plans have contributed greatly to how screwed up our health system is. EDIT: not to mention how it's used by certain groups to make it seem like their compensation is lower....so they can whine about how low their salary is and ask for a raise despite the fact that there overall compensation (when you include vacation time, health insurance, etc.) is very high.

      I disagree.Illegal immigrant labor is not the same as legal USC labor.The difference is that one is legal and one is not.The employer that hires an illegal alien is breaking the law, period.Therefore it isn't fair for companies that don't hire illegals.

There are many theories out there on why we are in the financial mess we are in but the general consensus is that government failed to regulate the home loan market.You are saying the same thing only that the government allowed this to happen.They allowed it to happen by not regulating it.I saw an economics professor give a lecture on how we got to where we are.He started with US history right after the Civil War and continued to present day. I think he hit the nail on the head and said that many people and the government had a hand in this mess.

    I don't know if you have ever tried to purchase health insurance but the reason companies doing it is a good idea is because they can get a group rate which is cheaper.

  Anyway, back to the thread.Hiring illegals is illegal.By blurring the lines I meant between what's legal and not legal.Today companies hire illegals to get that competitive edge and tomorrow they cook thier books to cheat on taxes.They(all companies) need to play by the rules.


  Researcher

[Researcher]

  I forgot to mention that another reason the border with Mexico needs to be sealed off.I don't know if anyone has paid attention to the news lately but Mexico has a drug cartel problem that is getting worse.Do we really want that to spill over on the US any more than it already has?


Researcher