The traditional house-wife

[jm21-2]

So, I've been working at a real job for a while now, and while catching up on accounting and gathering information for taxes I really got to thinking about the benefits of having a traditional housewife versus a girl who works. In the last year (3 months of which my practice was losing money as I started up) I made enough money to live very comfortably. I make a bit above the median household income where I live. I've got a car I like, a sailboat, and just put an offer down on a pretty nice house. It got me thinking that I don't need an extra income at all. At the same time, my drive to do domestic chores has steadily declined because after a stressful day at work I just want to kick back a cold one and watch a tv show. So I eat out more which is both more expensive and less healthy, and really slack off on cleaning (I really hate cleaning...). Lately I've been thinking about the benefits of a traditional housewife and they're fairly compelling: a real breakfast in the morning; house always clean; a real lunch instead of fast food; a good dinner and a hug waiting at home...starting to sound nicer and nicer. I mean basically the extra income of a wife who worked wouldn't really do a whole lot. Maybe have a nicer car or a nicer boat or a somewhat nicer house, but really I'm satisfied with what I have. The benefit of having a housewife to manage the domestic sphere seems  greater and greater to me.

But at the same time I watch guys get hammered in divorces with dependent spouses almost every day. Here in WA you are going to get absolutely screwed if you have a dependent spouse. That's a real scary thought. Especially in my case as I'm self-employed, paying very little into social security due to how my taxes work out, and will be largely dependent on private retirement plans which are community property here in WA.

Anyways, I know some guys here have traditional wives and some have wives who work. Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the subject.

[bcc_1_2]

Let's not forget you want a woman that will intellectually be on your level etc. My intial reaction was you've got quite a long list of wants and might not be very realistic... but then I look at my own personal experience and my wife bends over backwards for me.

Just some points. If you live in an apartment you clean a lot less. And you can find decent to healthy food anywhere if you look for it... yes even at a McDonalds driveup now. Dine-ins even let you call ahead and pickup on your way home. So not to be a complete prick but you've got choices.

I don't cook at all anymore. If she doesn't know how to make something she doesn't ask me... she calls someone else. I don't intentionally leave messes, but I don't clean either.

But I think eventually she does want to work part time.

It appears it would be ideal for you to find someone in school or done with school that might want to work part time or something like that. Something in between housewife and career woman is probably want you want.

[Jeff S]

Not realistic? Your list of wants are what most men have always wanted - and what most men up until Gen X have nearly always had.

Intellectual equal? Not sure what that means. Had a few too many women's studies classes, I guess. Men and women are different. They're hard wired to be different. Their bodies are different, their minds are different. Their emotions are different, their interests are different. Don't get mad at me, I didn't think up the system. It's just the way it is.

You can find an intelligent, educated, accomplished woman who wants to be a home maker, who wants to be part of a team, who wants to go through life as part of a family who will contribute in her own way - and allow you to contribute in yours. That means being the primary homemaker and child care person, while you are the primary income earner. That's the way teams work - each member does what they do best. You don't see the quarterback and center, splitting their duties 50/50 just to be fair.

I've had what you're looking for for many years now, and it's great. Yes, you can find such a woman, one who wants to be on your team, not one who wants to be interchangeable with you.

[robert angel]

I don't know many stay at home wives/Moms any more. When there are kids involved, having the Mom stay at home is a big plus in many ways. But, and you've seen it before your eyes, it's bad enough having a dependent spouse, but stack alimony on top of child support in the advent of a divorce, and the amount is draconian.

Takes a really special lady to be a stay at home spouse too. There's a big difference between having someone keeping up your house and cooking versus creating a warm and inviting home.  I know of a number of women who'd 'like' to have that job. And it really is a 'job'. Some Asian women feel that working, keeping up the house--including cooking, preparing lunches,  cleaning, ironing and keeping a full time job, are just a part of their 'job'. My wife does, although my sons and I do do chores around the house.

I think ideally, if you marry someone who wants that role, she should have a college degree and career experience, God forbid things don't work out for whatever reason or in whatever way. In that case, if it goes to divorce, she can at least hopefully go back to work. I hate to think negatively, but I like to be safe, having been through a painful divorce before. It's a hard call already and this dynamic makes it even more so.

[bcc_1_2]

Intellectual equal?

Comes straight from JM's prior posts. Not something I cooked up from a woman's studies class.

[jm21-2]

I don't think I'd marry someone unless she was smart and could hold an intelligent conversation. But throughout human history there have been plenty of smart stay-at-home spouses. Read the essay "in defense of women" by HL Mencken sometime...I think  he had it right...the guy works a monotonous mind-numbing job while the wife stays at home, pampers his ego a little bit so he can brag about being so productive and make him feel important, while she enjoys more intellectual pursuits that don't really pay anything (e.g. writing or art).

I live in a small town and there are almost no decent restaurants. The few decent ones are quite expensive. I'm a bit of a foodie so having a wife who was a decent cook would be a huge plus in my book.

I guess I view it this way: I think both people should make roughly equal contributions to the household. So, if I'm going to marry a woman who wants to work, I'm not going to marry a girl working at McDonalds. I'm going to marry a professional woman with a career who makes a similar amount as me. Same with a housewife essentially: if I had a minimum wage job and wasn't much of a provider then I wouldn't expect her to be much of a housewife (not very clean and hamburger helper for dinner). On the other hand if I'm being a decent provider my expectations would go up (keeps the house clean, likes interior decorating, keeps up her appearance, good cook, reads a lot about child-raising techniques, etc.). I don't think that is unreasonable and I do think that although any woman could be a housewife it takes an intelligent woman to be a good housewife.

The problem is that a housewife's contributions are less tangible and if it comes to a divorce you will have a serious mess on your hands. Alimony/spousal support seems to be trending downwards, but child support seems to be trending upwards, at least here in WA.

BCC's suggestion about part time works seems like it might be ideal, but I'm not sure there are many decent paying/professional jobs where you can work part time. Most I've seen have an expectation that the part time is only temporary and eventually the employee is expected to start working full time.

[piglett]

Not realistic? Your list of wants are what most men have always wanted - and what most men up until Gen X have nearly always had.

Intellectual equal? Not sure what that means. Had a few too many women's studies classes, I guess. Men and women are different. They're hard wired to be different. Their bodies are different, their minds are different. Their emotions are different, their interests are different. Don't get mad at me, I didn't think up the system.

EXACTLY !!!!

[fathertime]

     Your expectations are not ‘a long list of wants’ they are entirely reasonable especially given what you are bringing to the table yourself.  Regarding divorce, you take your chances as you know, if it happens that the marriage winds up with a divorce, then you grab your ankles then you pay your hopefully somewhat reasonable child support and be done with it. Since you are a lawyer you know how to handle/preempt that better than most.   

If you want a woman around the house, then that is what you should go for.  There are plenty of younger generation women that are both intelligent and happy to have a man take care of the financial end of things. That is especially true if the man is solid and the lady has confidence that he will not run around on her or leave her high and dry at a later date.   

Good luck,

Fathertime!

[Dave H]

Hey  jm21-2,

It is quite possible. My wife and her sister are both RN's that are currently stay at home moms. A friend of ours is a dentist who is now a stay at home mom. They maintain their licenses in case they ever need to use them in the future. Definitely no problems in intelligence or stimulating conversations with any of the ladies!

Dave

[bcc_1_2]

Hey  jm21-2,

It is quite possible. My wife and her sister are both RN's that are currently stay at home moms.

Sounds ok once you have kids, but intially you want to keep her busy so she's not bored and or homesick. I wouldn't be surprised by this time next year if my wife has her drivers license has taken a couple classes in the fall and looks at some part time work after that. Especially if you don't want kids right away... encourage her to keep busy one way or another.

[robert angel]

Regarding FT's comment:

>>if it happens that the marriage winds up with a divorce, then you grab your ankles then you pay your hopefully somewhat reasonable child support and be done with it<<

In my sunny state, if you have one child, child support 'guidelines' are 17% for one child, and 26% for two. The judges rarely deviate from that--it's a very long shot hoping for 'somewhat reasonable' in these parts.

There is a backlash due to all the 'dead beat dads' and the good dads pay the price, sadly enough. I support my kid's education and will continue to do so through grad school and it's not in the divorce decree, but a lot of decrees legally insist on child support as long as the kids are in school.

And lads, that's your GROSS, not you take home pay. I already have almost 40% deducted form my pay for taxes, insurances and a 403K. Add 26% ( and you pay taxes on that 26% too) and it knocks you well down to below half of what you were making.

Sobering?

Of course that doesn't include any alimony either, nor half of everything you've purchased materially since marriage--house, cars, on and on.

At least Jm21-2's already bought a house and seems happy with his current car--that's insurance, should God forbid he marries and things don't work out. Sounds like he's logical and will choose carefully and he's a legal insider, so he knows the score there.

Marrying someone who has an education and or job experience to reference and fall back on when needed just makes sense. Having a spouse who you can talk about mutual interests with is a no brainer, in my estimate. My wife is pretty and looks half her actual age, but that alone would get very boring in a short time.

I hate to be the devil's advocate, but there's a lot of guys who marry gals a lot younger than themselves--gals with limited education and work experience. That alone can bite you big time later and add a kid or two to the mix and you can get chewed up really bad...

It's hard to find--to create--a marriage like you pretty much only see in "TV Land"--Ozie and Harriet'--"Leave to Beaver"-etc. Those days are long gone.Today you might call a stay at home spouse/wife a 'domestic engineer'. And take it from me--I've had to work and keep up a big house and care for two kids for months at a time with no wife or relatives. I was very glad just to go back to my day job. It was much easier! We tend to under estimate the work involved in being a home maker.

[jm21-2]

Yep, child support is similar here. Even if both parties agree to a lower amount for child support the judge won't sign the orders unless you also have one of the very limited statutory reasons for a deviation as well.

The whole dead beat dad thing is kind of funny considering non-custodial moms are much less likely to pay child support than non-custodial dads....and I am constantly amazed at how vicious and entitled women can be when it comes to custody or child support issues...refusing to let the kid see the dad if he doesn't pay more for child support, etc...

I figure if I get married, instead of investing in retirement plans/stocks/bonds/whatever I'll just make extra payments on the house which should remain as separate property...and/or make extra payments on my student loans...it should take a pretty long time to pay off all that so if she takes off in the first couple of years I'd be relatively safe. And here in WA usually there's only temporary spousal support (a few months to a year) if the marriage is under 5 years or so.

I actually wouldn't mind community property and spousal support if we weren't also a no-fault state. Can't imagine what it feels like to pay out the wazoo because your wife ran off with some guy. Ouch.

[bcc_1_2]

I figure if I get married, instead of investing in retirement plans/stocks/bonds/whatever I'll just make extra payments on the house which should remain as separate property...

I had a couple mutual funds that didn't take a major bath and just started buying stocks once they took that hard dip. It is a pretty nice time to be investing unfortunately... for your case.

I want to see just how far Toyota will drop. The japs are still gonna buy that car regardless. If Ford can survive the pinto...

[robert angel]

Jm21-2.--Yea--get your ducks in a row according to the laws of your state. I hear in most western states, prenups aren't worth much--same as in my state.

Yea--Toyota gets much closer to $70--it's E trade here I come. Would have been nice to snatch  up GE at $7 a share--plenty of people I knew were saying to grab it, but I was distracted. Alcoa was pretty sweet too. Wonder what'll happen to Google if their OS is better than Microsoft's Windows? Who'd have thunk how far their stock's already come..

We tend to think such stocks are solid, long term investments and they probably are--but let's not lose sight of General Motors--now "Govt. Motors'".

[jm21-2]

I had a couple mutual funds that didn't take a major bath and just started buying stocks once they took that hard dip. It is a pretty nice time to be investing unfortunately... for your case.

I want to see just how far Toyota will drop. The japs are still gonna buy that car regardless. If Ford can survive the pinto...

As long as you buy them before marriage and keep them in a separate account it should be fine. It'll probably be a while before I get married but I seem to burn through my cash on hand pretty fast between trips to Asia, cars, boats, house downpayments, student loans, etc...so not much left for stocks.

Pre-nups can work here but they need to be really well done and fair to both parties...and doesn't affect child support anyways which is the biggie for most people.

[Jeff S]

Nothing like a good Bible story to make your day.

Adam was hanging around the garden of Eden feeling very lonely.
 
So, God asked him, 'What's wrong with you?'
 
Adam said he didn't have anyone to talk to.
 
God said that He was going to make Adam a companion, and that it would be a woman.
 
He said, 'This pretty lady will gather food for you, she will cook for you, and when you discover clothing, she will wash them for you.

She will always agree with every decision you make and she will not nag you, and will always be the first to admit she was wrong when you've had a disagreement.
 
She will praise you!
 
She will bear your children, and never ask you to get up in the middle of the night to take care of them.

She will NEVER have a headache and will freely give you love and passion whenever you need it.'
 
Adam asked God, 'What will a woman like this cost?'

'An arm and a leg'.
 
Then Adam asked, 'What can I get for a rib

Of course the rest is history.

[Ray]

I figure if I get married, instead of investing in retirement plans/stocks/bonds/whatever I'll just make extra payments on the house which should remain as separate property...

I'm not sure how your community property laws compare to those in California, but I was once told by an attorney here that it isn't that simple to keep the house as separate property.

For example, if you make any mortgage payments with community income, the house becomes community property. Any co-mingling of funds at all may screw up the best of plans in this regard.

How would that work in Washington State? Do you have any non-community income or assets that you can make mortgage payments from?

Ray

[jm21-2]

Typically the house is considered separate property and the other spouse's community property claims for things like helping out with mortgage payments are off-set by the benefit they receive from being able to live in their spouse's separate housing. So they have a community interest but it's off-set by the fair rental value of the house they're living in. Usually where the community interest comes into play is if there were improvements done to the house using community funds/efforts like putting on a new roof or building a garage. Then you get into a whole mess trying to figure out how much that improvement (which may have been done several years ago) affects the current value of the house...

It's kind of a weird/archaic law that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the age of zero down mortgages...and some people get pretty frustrated when they've been paying half the mortgage for years and then find they only have a tiny interest in the property.

Paying off the student loans is a safer bet though. My mortgage interest rate is lower than my student loan interest rate anyway, as insane as that seems.

[fathertime]

]

Posted by: robert angel
Insert Quote
Regarding FT's comment:

>>if it happens that the marriage winds up with a divorce, then you grab your ankles then you pay your hopefully somewhat reasonable child support and be done with it<<

In my sunny state, if you have one child, child support 'guidelines' are 17% for one child, and 26% for two. The judges rarely deviate from that--it's a very long shot hoping for 'somewhat reasonable' in these parts.

There is a backlash due to all the 'dead beat dads' and the good dads pay the price, sadly enough. I support my kid's education and will continue to do so through grad school and it's not in the divorce decree, but a lot of decrees legally insist on child support as long as the kids are in school.

And lads, that's your GROSS, not you take home pay. I already have almost 40% deducted form my pay for taxes, insurances an/quote]

I hear you RA.  From my perspective, a man does what he can do to protect himself, but does not base the marriage on what may happen in a divorce.  It seemed to me the conversation was going in a direction that was saying, 'Have you wife work part-time to avoid having to pay out big on Alimony/child support'  It seems to me that is not the best way to start out a marriage.  If Jm21-2 would like a stay at home wife, then that is what he should go for, and damn the consequences if it doesn't work out years down the road.  As a lawyer, he seems to have a good grasp on how to mitigate these consequences to a certain extent anyway. 


Fathertime!

[robert angel]

I have mixed emotions about taking precautionary measures before getting married, thinking how sometimes negative thoughts can become self fulfilling prophecies. But after going through a divorce after 14 years of marriage, it's hard not to be defensive. I have several bank accounts, retirement accounts and other financial concerns and my current wife is aware of all, including my insurance beneficiaries. I have an account in my name that the house I 'own' (along with the bank) has its mortgage payment drafted from. It's just hard to imagine that if God forbid something happened to our marriage, I'd split close to 20 years of equity investment made before we wed, down the middle. As it stands now, my wife would get 50% of the home's value and my sons the other half if I passed away and they're all covered to a nice extent with various insurance policies.

Were I to buy another home and roll my existing equity into it, it would, as far as I know, become mutually dividable property  as a post marital purchase and my sons would stand to lose half of what they would otherwise receive in a worst case scenario. I just feel that doing it as I have done it is fair to all involved. No, it's not easy to make such decisions--they're not warm and fuzzy, touchy feeley kinds of thoughts and decisions, but I want all of us to have a fair measure of future financial security...

[fathertime]

I have mixed emotions about taking precautionary measures before getting married, thinking how sometimes negative thoughts can become self fulfilling prophecies. But after going through a divorce after 14 years of marriage, it's hard not to be defensive. I have several bank accounts, retirement accounts and other financial concerns and my current wife is aware of all, including my insurance beneficiaries. I have an account in my name that the house I 'own' (along with the bank) has its mortgage payment drafted from. It's just hard to imagine that if God forbid something happened to our marriage, I'd split close to 20 years of equity investment made before we wed, down the middle. As it stands now, my wife would get 50% of the home's value and my sons the other half if I passed away and they're all covered to a nice extent with various insurance policies.

Were I to buy another home and roll my existing equity into it, it would, as far as I know, become mutually dividable property  as a post marital purchase and my sons would stand to lose half of what they would otherwise receive in a worst case scenario. I just feel that doing it as I have done it is fair to all involved. No, it's not easy to make such decisions--they're not warm and fuzzy, touchy feeley kinds of thoughts and decisions, but I want all of us to have a fair measure of future financial security...

Yup the old 'self fulfilling prophecies'! As a slightly older man, with previous children, you have a lot more to consider and potentially lose at this time then someone with less.  My thoughts were partially based on the fact that jm21 seems fairly young and without children and being a lawyer would know how to protect himself more than most.  In his case, having a wife work part time to protect himself from potential alimony seems like it is counterproductive to what he wanted to begin with.  If he wants a woman who is a stay at home housewife, then that is what he should go for, and forget about fretting over what might happen with alimony because she is not working during the marriage. 

Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

I wasn't meaning to sound too paranoid or anything. Just that my experiences with divorces has shifted my priorities around a bit as far as finances go. I'm a saver and not particularly materialistic so my gut instinct financially is put as much money as possible away for an early retirement. If I got married though I would probably focus first on paying off debts. It's not like that would be a really bad choice financially. Overall the impact on the household finances wouldn't be much at all and it's not like she isn't getting a benefit from my education or house, but I would be better off if we got divorced in the first few years.

[robert angel]

Jm21-2, I say get the 'things' while you're young--they're more of a kick. I don't think being young has ever been about saving for the future that much.

I'm not an old fellow in my estimation, but I used to be a lot more materialistic. But since I've gotten just about everything I want, it's tapered off quite a bit, hehe...

Actually a lot of the things I've gotten over the years, I've gotten rid of or rarely use. I don't wear my suits because I don't have to and I don't wear my rolex or jewelry because I don't feel like it. I like my Honda just fine--it's comfortable, reliable and I don't freak out when a shopping cart dings it. I'm past wanting new cars -- everybody out on the road's driving a used car anyways--why should I be different for a few days?.

Maybe I'm lazy, but I'd rather go out in a friend's boat than use mine and all the maintenance that comes with it. If I was really wealthy, maybe--not really sure, perhaps I'd pay someone to keep up--maybe even pay for a captain on a bigger boat for me.

Maybe if I had a lot of property, I could hire someone to watch and care for it, but then I'd have to watch him.

I've been around the world a few times, but there's still a lot of places we want to see and time and money are limiters on those aspirations for now. That's perhaps the one itch that never goes away. Then again, I've been to so many places, that there's almost as many I want to revisit to see what's changed as there's new places I want to yet discover.

I'd recommend travel for anybody of any age. I am really glad my sons have seen a lot of places and have had meaningful relations with people worldwide.

I'm glad my ex got the big house with all the land, because keeping it up was making me feel like it owned me instead of vice versa. That's not 'sour grapes' either. Same with pets.

When I was much younger--even in back my teens, I made a lot of money and wasted and I mean REALLY wasted, almost all of it, from NYC to Kalamazoo to Key West. I can really relate to Jimmy Buffets lyrics to the song  'A Pirate looks at forty":

"I made enough money to buy Miami, But I pissed it away so fast, Never meant to last, never meant to last"  and

"I go for younger women, lived with several awhile
And though I ran away, they'll come back one day.
And still could manage a smile"
It just takes awhile, just takes awhile"

But except for some bad car wrecks and embarrassments to my family, I'd  probably do it all about the same way if I was able to replay it. It was a rush having all that 'stuff'--the getting and having, the people and places. My previous marriage was great for quite a while also and I have to look at the good and accept the bad without dwelling. Everyone thought it was 'perfect' and that we were the last couple who'd ever break up and for a while at least, it was pretty utopian.

Nothing lasts forever.

In spite of my cavalier self, I've been pretty darn lucky, sort of 'Forest Gumping' my way through life. I guess I plan a lot more now than i used to. I never planned a thing until I was about age 30.

Sometimes we get so preoccupied with planning and slogging away at our daily lives that we miss out on spontaneity and fun. I'm still pretty much flying by the seat of my pants and I hope I never take it all too seriously. It seems a lot of us are living in a sort of new 'Victorian era' sometimes and it might not be a bad idea for us to loosen up a bit.

I'd like to think that marvelous Oscar Wilde was wrong when he said "Youth is wasted on the young". I think you can have a a good time at any age, if you don't limit yourself.  Youthful thinking can be had at any age. My Mom has a sign on her refrigerator that says "Life's uncertain--eat dessert first". Satchel Paige was on to something when he said "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?". 

[fathertime]

Jm21-2, I say get the 'things' while you're young--they're more of a kick. I don't think being young has ever been about saving for the future that much.

I'm not an old fellow in my estimation, but I used to be a lot more materialistic. But since I've gotten just about everything I want, it's tapered off quite a bit, hehe...

Actually a lot of the things I've gotten over the years, I've gotten rid of or rarely use. I don't wear my suits because I don't have to and I don't wear my rolex or jewelry because I don't feel like it. I like my Honda just fine--it's comfortable, reliable and I don't freak out when a shopping cart dings it. I'm past wanting new cars -- everybody out on the road's driving a used car anyways--why should I be different for a few days?.

Maybe I'm lazy, but I'd rather go out in a friend's boat than use mine and all the maintenance that comes with it. If I was really wealthy, maybe--not really sure, perhaps I'd pay someone to keep up--maybe even pay for a captain on a bigger boat for me.

Maybe if I had a lot of property, I could hire someone to watch and care for it, but then I'd have to watch him.

I've been around the world a few times, but there's still a lot of places we want to see and time and money are limiters on those aspirations for now. That's perhaps the one itch that never goes away. Then again, I've been to so many places, that there's almost as many I want to revisit to see what's changed as there's new places I want to yet discover.

I'd recommend travel for anybody of any age. I am really glad my sons have seen a lot of places and have had meaningful relations with people worldwide.

I'm glad my ex got the big house with all the land, because keeping it up was making me feel like it owned me instead of vice versa. That's not 'sour grapes' either. Same with pets.

When I was much younger--even in back my teens, I made a lot of money and wasted and I mean REALLY wasted, almost all of it, from NYC to Kalamazoo to Key West. I can really relate to Jimmy Buffets lyrics to the song  'A Pirate looks at forty":

"I made enough money to buy Miami, But I pissed it away so fast, Never meant to last, never meant to last"  and

"I go for younger women, lived with several awhile
And though I ran away, they'll come back one day.
And still could manage a smile"
It just takes awhile, just takes awhile"

But except for some bad car wrecks and embarrassments to my family, I'd  probably do it all about the same way if I was able to replay it. It was a rush having all that 'stuff'--the getting and having, the people and places. My previous marriage was great for quite a while also and I have to look at the good and accept the bad without dwelling. Everyone thought it was 'perfect' and that we were the last couple who'd ever break up and for a while at least, it was pretty utopian.

Nothing lasts forever.

In spite of my cavalier self, I've been pretty darn lucky, sort of 'Forest Gumping' my way through life. I guess I plan a lot more now than i used to. I never planned a thing until I was about age 30.

Sometimes we get so preoccupied with planning and slogging away at our daily lives that we miss out on spontaneity and fun. I'm still pretty much flying by the seat of my pants and I hope I never take it all too seriously. It seems a lot of us are living in a sort of new 'Victorian era' sometimes and it might not be a bad idea for us to loosen up a bit.

I'd like to think that marvelous Oscar Wilde was wrong when he said "Youth is wasted on the young". I think you can have a a good time at any age, if you don't limit yourself.  Youthful thinking can be had at any age. My Mom has a sign on her refrigerator that says "Life's uncertain--eat dessert first". Satchel Paige was on to something when he said "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?". 

I gotta say buddy you are a good writer, or maybe it is just that I agree with what you are saying...

A young person should be out living, the saving thing is ok to an extent...but not focused on too much.  I blew a quite a bit of cash myself, but don't regret it, since enough was saved in the kid's college funds to get them off to a great start.  Nowadays I don't need/want much at all, an easy-going woman, computer, tv, poker games with the boys, a few niceties for the kids and wife.  Life is so much easier after all the craziness of the younger years has passed.  I wouldn't mind being 21 again, but at 41 life has never been better!  Who the hell knew there is indeed life after 40!

I hear ya about the boat...we love going on my buddy's boat...but what a freaking hassle for him..not to mention the 800 dollar monthly payment! Being a debt slave to something you use 6-7 times a year just makes no sense to me.

Fathertime!

[JackSprat]

Okay here's the deal.  A lot of guys have worked hard to achieve a good career and decent income.  A good portion of these guys got married to women seeking opportunity.  When they divorced a large portion of their money went to these women.  Now you could say you are going to seek a women that has a career of her own.  That could solve it but, most of these career type women are not going to have the looks you seek.  I guess you could say they don't "float your boat."  Keep in mind there are literally thousands (millions?) of guys that got screwed over by grabby women. 

So, what is the solution?  Easy, don't get married.  Sounds to easy dosen't it.  Just live with the woman.  If she decides to be completely unreasonable then, let her know it's is time for her to leave.