The good, the bad and the ugly

[JimSimon]

Having been married for two months to a lovely Calena, I wanted to offer some of my comments about what it takes to make such a relationship work and to comment on some of the misconceptions on this board.

#1  Communication is essential and since few Colombians women speak English that means you must speak Spanish.  There are so many cultural differences and different perspectives that unless you can truly communicate and explore them on a daily basis you are trying to live happily with a strange.  

    There are so many things we see differently because of our cultural perspective and we can discuss them on a daily basis.

#2  The initial basis for these relationships is that the gringos get an attractive young wife and the Colombianas get financial security.  This is not entirely bad since unless a relationship benefits both parties, it won't work.  

    However, there are two key things to be careful of.  My wife, for example has parents and four siblings and only on very good days am I a minimally acceptable substitute for family.  Know your novia's family and understand what she is giving up.  

    Keep your check book and your credit card well hidden.  If you are a middle class gringo, you are rich in Colombia.  If you spend money just because you love your novia and want to make her happy, that may become the only thing she "loves" you for.  

    The number one mistake that gringos make is using money too freely.  Colombians don't, in general, consider money that important and feel that we use money differently than they do.  Colombians men  who have three women, don't have to do it with money.  Women will accept money but they love and respect you less if that is all you have going for you.

#3  Learn to Salsa and Merainge(sp).  Last night, instead of watching the Diamonbacks dissect the Yankees in game 6, we attended a La India concert.  They gave Salsa lessons and my wife's English is far better than my Salsa.  She cried and sang along during the concert and the adoration of the latinos for La India (how many of us gringos had even heard of her) was incredible.

    After the performance, since downtown was between home and the concert, we stopped for the D-backs victory celebration.  In the midst of the craziness of the celebration, she began Salsaing with me.  

    The point is that it isn't easy.  Our cultures are totally different and the concept of cultural sensitivity will take on profound new meaning for your marriage to succeed.  My wife and I are starting to become aware of the profound differences in our cultures and to enjoy those differences.  This is after ten months of engagement / marriage and being able to speak the same language.

    Good luck to all of you.  This may be the best decision of your life but there will be lots of work.  Spending money is easier that learning Spanish but like most shortcuts, they don't work.  

Peace,

Jim

[Colonialjd]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

The Colombia vs. USA cultural divide is great.  It is also a tough thing for the woment to leave behind their families.  But don't underestimate that women and men are also very different.  Women think very different from us and it can be a struggle for us to get along in close quarters.  Nevertheless it can be a extremely beneficial, maturing experience.  Men and women that are married are on average more mature than those of us who have never been married.  Friends with longstanding marriages generally attribute their success to compromise.  

For you athletes out there please remember ----  No pain, No gain.  Please remember that in those tough moments -- like when your wife crashes your car.

As a possible solution to the language issue -- move into a barrio neighborhood!  Life can be frustrating there, but it is also more rewarding.  Your neighbors get together for block parties, people are more social, generally lots of kids for your kids to play with,...   The schools may suck, but you can send your kids to private school with the money you save on your house payment.

Saludos from California,

Stan

[JunFan]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

Nice post...you speak the truth.

Mike

[Edge]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

I have had my fiancée here with me for 3 weeks now.  Everything is going very well.  Life with a Latin woman can be incredibly good.  However, I have been reflecting on the difficulties and I believe, as you indicate, that the communication issue can be the #1 difficulty.

I bit the bullet and took Spanish classes for over a year at night so I could talk to her in her language.  I also paid for her English classes in Cali.  We talk to each other in both languages.  It is difficult to learn another language and we both realize this and can appreciate how difficult it is for our partner.  Her English is coming along.  What we have started is that we speak only Spanish for maybe an hour and then we switch to English.  

I notice that the little annoyances and misunderstandings that come up here and there are because we somehow crossed channels and did not communicate correctly.  She is a very private woman so I know she would never go for talking about our relationship to someone else, if I did not not know Spanish.  I think I have a pretty good handle on her culture from what she has told me and what I have observed from my trips south, so no problems have come up on that issue.

From when I started posting here on PL more than a year ago, I have advocated learning Spanish, to make this process easier.  I do not want to sound like a broken record, but I am glad I did.  Being able to communicate with her now would be much more difficult.  I am still far from fluent and really, our focus, as a couple now, is for her to learn English.  But good communication is one of the keys to harmony, I am finding out.

Besides a few times when we crossed channels, our relationship is going well and she takes care of me, like a good woman should.

[JunFan]

... in response to Re: The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by Edge on Nov 5, 2001

Edge,
Glad everything is working out for you.  My wife is new here too, she's been here about 3 months.  

I'll give the board a few of my thoughts about the language. I speak pretty good Spanish.  I studied it for 4 years in HS and College, over ten years ago.  I learned even more the year before she came here thru constantly translating and writing emails, and talking to her on the phone.  Plus, I have lived and breathed Spanish over the past 3 months. My wife does not speak any English, or at least she didn't when I met her.  She tried to learn a little bit in Colombia, but it was not much use.  She has been in community college ESL classes that are 2 hours/day, 5 days/week. While she is trying, she has not a ton of progress. Or at least, not to the point where we can speak English in a normal conversation like we can when we speak Spanish.

So this leaves you with the proposition of speaking Spanish during normal day to day discussions. Where does that leave me? Well, like I said my Spanish is pretty good but unless you are COMPLETELY fluent, you still will have problems understanding these women.  Its hard to explain how difficult the Spanish can get involved in all the day to day stuff...it's unbelievable.  Come to think of it, I am not sure one can be this level of fluent without being a native speaker, or being immersed for several years in Spanish. I absolutely dare you to try to get out one of those hand-held translators...

My point? In the long-run, it is a helluva lot more important for her to know/study English than it is for you to learn Spanish.  The Spanish part is really just to help you do a good job finding the right one.

Mike

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JunFan on Nov 5, 2001

My point? In the long-run, it is a helluva lot more important for her to know/study English than it is for you to learn
Spanish. The Spanish part is really just to help you do a good job finding the right one.

Mike - I agree in the long run it is more important for her to know English but what about now??
Say she was here with you the last 3 months and you do not have a common language to communicate with.  Right now you are using Spanish.  What would have happened it you did not know Spanish??  What about that period of time until she can speak English?  What language would you have used???  You advise that her English was non-existant and now is maybe so, so.  Think of how your relationship would be if you had not learned Spanish.

What are your thoughts??

[JunFan]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The good, the bad and the ug..., posted by Edge on Nov 5, 2001

Edge,
I didn't mean to imply that Spanish was not important, because it is extremely important to these relationships...especially in the beginning stages.  And yes, in most cases the gringo will be speaking Spanish more than English until the woman gets her English up to speed.

And it's probably not realistic to think that they will be fluent in English any sooner than we get fluent in Spanish. So it's realistic to say for the forseable future, we will be kinda meeting somewhere in between.

I don't even want to imagine what it would be like if I couldn't speak Spanish....truly horrible I would think.

Mike

[JimSimon]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: The good, the bad and th..., posted by JunFan on Nov 5, 2001

Bottom line is that in the short run it is important that you know Spanish or you have no hope of getting to know the woman you plan to spend the rest of your life with.

In the long run she must learn English or she will not become a part of the United States.  As Nidia has told my ESL beginners classes on numerous occasions "En los Estados Unidos, si usted no aprende ingles, se muere".  In the US, if you don't learn English, you die.  

The hardest thing for us is talking English since it takes longer and is less effective that Spanish at this point but she's getting better.

Jim

[Pete E]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

Jim,
I agree that communication is important and it is a very good thing if a guy knows spanish when he goes looking for a latina wife.
However:I would say do not let not speaking spanish keep you from going,or delay you from going.You can work around it with translaters and electronic language translaters.
Yes,most Colombianas do not speak english,but most Americans do not speak spanish either.I think the Colombiana is more likely to speak better english than the american speaks spanish.English is the number one second language of the world because there is an incentive to speak the language of the most prosperous country in the world,and also the country that turns out the most movies.
Unless you learn the language as a child it is very hard to learn another language when you are not immersed in the culture of the language.Americans will usually have limited success unless they spend alot of time in a spanish culture and conversely Latinas will have limited success untill they spend time in an english culture.Some of my wifes friends speak english because they had to do it in their jobs when they left Colombia.
So,someone needs to learn the other language.My contention is that should be the person who is going to live in the country of the language to be learned.They will need it anyway in that country and it will be easier because they will be immersed in it.As I told my wife,if we were living in Colombia,I would need to learn spanish.Since we are living in the US she needs to learn english.Its not fair,its just the way it is.
When I met my wife she knew some english.She had actually taken english courses in college but didn't spaek it well because she never had to use it.I had tried to study spanish with limited success,so she was way ahead of me.We used a translater when we met and for important issues after that.We also used an electronic translater from the start,and we still pull it out occasionally.She has been in the US for 20 months now and has studied english alot.Her english is about 50% I would say.When we return from Colombia in January she wants to get a job,and unless she gets in a spanish speaking atmosphere I know that will cause her to learn faster than anything else she has done.
Unless we move to a spanish speaking country my spanish will never catch up with her english,so we will converse in english.
You do make a good point,but overstate it,that unless you speak spanish you are living with a stranger.I think you can be close and understand each other pretty well if you don't speak spanish and her english is limited,but of course you will miss alot,and if it gets really important you can get help to translate.I don't mean to say that it is
not very valuable to speak spanish.My point is it is difficult and not absolutely essential,and I wouldn't want any guy to use that as an excuse to not get off the fence and just go if he is interested in a latina wife.
Also,only one person needs to speak the other language to communicate.Who that should be should be determined by where you live.I have 2 friends that speak fair spanish because they spent a great deal of time in Colombia.They didn't get it studying here.They both married women that speak no english,and the women seem to be making no progress in english because communication is in spanish.Even though this makes it easier for the woman initially,it is a big drawback to her ever learning english.
I know old Italian families here where every one but the mother speaks english.The kids cause they got it in school,the husband because he needed it at work,and the wife never did learn it.That is a diservice to her,although it was easy.
Yes,I must admit I am a little lazy about it.If I lived in a spanish country I would have alot more motivation.There is also that addage about teaching old dogs new tricks.

Pete

[Wayne]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

Thanx for a great post.  

Funny you mention the salsa dancing.  I have been taking private salsa lessons for 2 months and going out dancing on the weekends.  In San Diego there are plenty of pretty salsa partners that would love to have a guy to dance with.  This as most of you guys know, is not an easy dance, and takes alot of practice to be half way decent at it.  The girls admire and respect a guy who pays his dues. Depending on where you live, you can get a taste for the Latin women locally without even getting on a plane.  I start Spanish lessons in two weeks at our local Language school.  I have no desire to rush down there without at least a basic grasp of the Spanish language.

I lived with my Russian wife for 4 years and she was always, and still is a stranger to me.  The cultural differences with a foreign bride can be absolutely stifling at times.

Good luck
Wayne

[Buck]

... in response to The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

Thanks for that insite.I'm just getting started.I was going to go to Cali in the spring but have decided to try for the 21st of this month.I know no spanish.Other members have told me not to worry about the language at this point,just go.I am waiting for the arrival of a book called "Spanish In 10 Minutes A Day".Do you think I should go now?I realise it is my decision but I would like your opinion.Thanls-Buck

[JimSimon]

... in response to Re: The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by Buck on Nov 4, 2001

Hi Buck,

By all means, GO!!!  You won't be the first person who went to Colombia without much Spanish.  If it seems like this part of the world will be important in your life, then I suggest taking college classes.  Community Colleges are normally inexpensive and provide learned friendly environments.  

By the way, ten minutes a day isn't enough time to learn a foreign language.  It might be a great book (I haven't seen it) but learning a foreign language takes lots of time and effort.  

Good luck.

Jim

[Buck]

... in response to Re: Re: The good, the bad and the ugly, posted by JimSimon on Nov 4, 2001

Thanks Jim,I know that 10Min a day won't be enough time to learn spanish.It is only a starting point for me.This route is a necessity for me as I have no access to a comunity college.I plan on trying hard to learn as much spanish as I can.I also know this is not going to happen overnite.I will follow your advice and go if I can.Once again thanks.Buck

[Sol]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The good, the bad and the ug..., posted by Buck on Nov 4, 2001

Buck,

If you have Spanish speaking folks in your community try offering a language exchange. I'm pretty fluent in Spanish so I didn't need to do this but before I went to Korea for a year to teach English I networked to find some local Korean people who wanted to practice their English. We'd spend a while speaking English then switch to Korean. I also studied Korean at the University since I don't think conversation practice is enough.

The nice thing about a language exchange is that you get to make friends and you get to help people with their day to day English needs.

I have a Mexican neighbor who speaks a fair amount of English but needs help writing invoices and handling some other English language matters for his contracting business. I help him with these things and he does lots of home repair work for just the cost of materials. (I'm buying him a PC and will teach him to use it since I don't think the English-for-construction-work exchange is fair for him.)

Sol