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Author Topic: Love can it last?  (Read 11916 times)
Peter Lee
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« on: May 24, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
Love can it last?
I read some of this writing years ago and it was well put.  It was the way I saw the truth of relationships.  It is what I have observed in life and my students in the past 25 years.  
The sad thing about love is that it is ultimately impossible.  First, you can fall in love with each other. You can feel the excitement every time you meet. You can promise each other, yes, yes, yes, for ever only you. You can marry and, at this stage, feel as if you want to embrace the whole world. Honeymoon can be sheer bliss. You can found a family and feel sure of each other.  For how long?   A sped up version is taking a gf to the Bahamas on the sail boat.  In 3 weeks [the magic number] we want to kill each other.  After a few weeks back home of separation we are back to the old routine again and all is forgiven.
If neither of the two gives in to the sexual attraction of an outsider, and doesn't even admit it, boredom and indifference will set in.
It seems that the brain emits chemicals that help in making your partner attractive to you.   In the start of the relationship you can’t sleep or eat much and want to be with that person as much as possible.  This usually wares off in about 2 to 3 years and the powerful attraction goes and you settle down.  
The single women with 3 year olds that are divorced or separated is an example, they have a new mate and they now hate their husbands.  When they sign up their kid I look at them and say “single Mom right”?   I am usually right. Procreation is a biological necessity. We all are wired to fall in love during our youth. To fall in love raises the appetite to copulate, and to copulate is necessary in order to procreate. There is also a biological necessity for feelings of love and care. Where there is only appetite to copulate, offspring may not be attended to sufficiently.   As I get older it is harder to fall in love.  But I see my younger partner go through what I felt years ago, an euphoric feeling of being one with everything.  I can see my gf going through this phase and I am jealous coz I would like to go through it again.  
In my view, nature is terribly efficient. What's not needed is not provided for.  Old age is created by man, not by nature. Nature's interest probably is a turnover rate of the species of 40 or 50 years. We are equipped comparatively well to go on with a partner for a few years, probably a maximum of the famous seven.  It's about an age when the first-born children could follow a herd independently.  
Also I have found that couples that are students of mine who live together if the woman does not get pregnant in a few years even if she is using birth control and consciously knows why she is not getting pregnant will look for another mate.   It is another way of nature ensuring the survival of the species.   She doesn’t know why suddenly she is not attracted to him, she just knows he has to go.
Each of the two partners will contemplate what went wrong. If they lack understanding of life itself, they may ultimately think that it all comes down to the wrong choice of partner. They'll remember the other options they had in life, those that they bypassed because they decided for the one they're with. But it wouldn't have been better with the other option, just different, and finally, just as depressing. Make no mistake... the deficiency is in nature. Basically, it's the impossibility of love.   Now I know what your thinking your still in love and you have been together for years.  Well there are exceptions and I want to be one of them.
My question to you is have you observed similar things than I have or am I so off base that my observations are meaningless?
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surfscum
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Love can it last?, posted by Peter Lee on May 24, 2003

Love is patient

Love is kind

It does not envy.

It does not boast.

It is not proud.

It is not rude.

It is not self-seeking.

It is not easily angered.

It keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.
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Stephen
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Real Love is..., posted by surfscum on May 25, 2003

Someone ought to write that down in a book.

Stephen
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Edge
Guest
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to That's really pretty good........, posted by Stephen on May 25, 2003

[This message has been edited by Edge]

written them down in a book.  These words of wisdom have been attributed to Saint Paul in 1 Corinthians chap. 13 verses 4-7 (which is in the New Testament of the Bible for all the heathens among us).

There is also the famous "Sonnet 116" written by William Shakespeare which talks about Real Love.

Let me not to the marriage of True minds admit impediments.
Love is not Love which alters when it alteration finds, nor bends with the remover to remove.
Oh no!  It is an ever fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken.
It is the star to every wandering bark, whose worth's unknown, altho his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool.  Tho rosy lips and cheeks within his bending sickles compass come.
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, but bears it out, even to the edge of Doom.
If this be error, and upon me proved, then I was never writ.
Nor no man ever loved.

The poem (since it is a work or Art, it has a life of its own) starts out talking:

"Let me not to the marriage of True minds admit impediments."
Do not let me by what I am goin to say stop or put up impediments to the union or marriage of you people who are already Loving.

"Love is not Love which alters when it alteration finds, nor bends with the remover to remove."
It starts to tell what Love is by telling you what it is not.  Love is not Love which changes when it finds a change in the loved one.  Por ejemplo -  If a woman or a man marries for say money, and the other person loses the money, an alteration has occured and their Love will then alter or change.  (This part of the poem is generally thought to say the this is a "selfish" act to alter upon finding an alteration)  It also does bend with the remover to remove.  If the loved one is trying to break the love union and you bend to their will you are not loving them.  If a child wants to do something you know is not good for them and you allow them to do it (or bend to their will), you are not doing what is "good for them".

"Oh no!  It is an ever fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken."
The poem says - Oh no, it is not that.  It talks about Love being a mark or point in space in time that looks on storms and cannot be shaken.

"It is the star to every wandering bark, whose worth's unknown, altho his height be taken."
Back in Shakespeare's day, a Bark was a ship on the ocean and they navigated by the stars.  The aim of every ship was to get to home port or to put into port.  Love is the star to guide your life with to get to happiness.  The worth of Love is unknown.  When using a compass and sextant to navigate you take the height of the star and guide by the horizon.  This forms a cross.

"Love's not Time's fool.  Tho rosy lips and cheeks within his bending sickles compass come."
Everything is Time's fool, except Love.  We are Time's fool. Everything eventually falls prey to old man Time with his sickle, even youth and good looks.  But not Love, it breaks through and lasts through time.


"Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, but bears it out, even to the edge of Doom."
The poem talks about how Love remains steadfast even until doomsday.


"If this be error, and upon me proved, then I was never writ.
The poem says if what I have said here is not true and there is an error is what has been conveyed, then I (or the poem) was as good as never having been written.

Then Shakespeare says:  "Nor no man has never loved!"


I have written this sonnet from memory so if there are some errors, that is why.  I learned it many many years ago.

From the sonnet we can develop a definition for Love (if Love can be contained in a definition?)

"Love is the unselfish, willing of the good of another."

The willing part comes from the True minds part at the beginning of the sonnet.  The "will" controls all of our actions.  When you will something, you put what you have into it.  The "unselfish part" comes from the altering when you find an alteration.  The "good of another" part comes from the bending with the remover to remove.

Pretty amazing what Shakespeare was able to create with this sonnet.  It has lived for over 500 years because it has Truth or Love within it and is able to break through time and live for who knows how long.

I have never know a person who was able to Love with Truth when they were thinking of themselves.
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Stephen
Guest
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Someone already has..., posted by Edge on May 25, 2003

...it was Shakespeare that said that stuff.  But the Bible quotes a lot of Shakespeare, you know.

Stephen
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surfscum
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to I thought....., posted by Stephen on May 26, 2003

your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you said that.
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Howard
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Love can it last?, posted by Peter Lee on May 24, 2003

Peter,

A few years ago I noticed many of the same things that you have just stated.  Similar apprehensions delayed my ability to make a decision on marriage until my 30's.  I have no regret that I chose to wait.  Waiting will make me a better husband.  Waiting has found me a better wife.

I too have seen more failed marriages than successful ones.  My mother never married my father because she knew it would only end in divorce.  It was a wise but controversial decision on her part.  In the end she was the one who made the best choice.

I have an advantage over some in trying to figure this riddle out.  I have a solid group of friends who are realistic and stable and I have two marriages in my immediate family that should be hearlded as the template for successful marriages.

The reason(s) for failure are many.  You noted a few, but there are many others as I'm sure you well know.  I found it impossible to address all of the reasons for failure.  That's when I decided to try and list the reasons for success.  People think two ways.  I am an optomist, so for me, looking at the positives is already the way my mind works.  It wasn't that much of a stretch Smiley  By nature we tend to remember the bad, the end, the mistakes, etc... and dwell on them as if not making them in the future will somehow asure us of a different result.  Of course, we find entirely new mistakes to make, because we are in a different situation, with a different person, in a different place, etc...  There really seems no sure fire way to avoid failure, if that is your mindset.  To me, it seems that the only way to avoid failure is to concentrate on success.  

Instead of walking around on pins and needles, find confidence, hold your head up and believe in your decision.  Your partner will never have faith in you, if you don't have faith in her.

Anyway, the one thing I have noticed in the successful marriages that I have tried my best to analyze is friendship and equality.  Of course, respect, compassion, tenderness, mutual attraction, etc... play their parts, but the one factor that is in all of the successful marriages I have been exposed to--and there are several more than the two I mentioned earlier--has been friendship.  It seems everything stems from there.  No matter how physically attracted you and your mate are to eachother, if you don't really like your partner, you will never love them.  I found this is abundance in successful marriages and found it completely absent in those that failed.

The others hit the nail on the head in my opinion on the subject of love.  Love at first sight is a very, VERY rare occurrance.  It's usually lust mascarading as love.  Love takes time and patience.  Love is something that evolves and grows, not something that happens when you meet a pretty girl.

Pop Culture has given us a very distorted and innaccurate picture of what love is.  Love is not what is depicted in most Hollywood movies.  Love just doesn't happen like it does in teen movies.  Unfortunately, I grew up in an era that love is defined by Hollywood and not reality.  Call me crazy, but I have several women friends looking for the Mr Right they saw in a film.  They will never find him because he's not real.  

It's only getting worse as more as more ridiculous movies come out and teenage girls absorb them like a sponge sucks up water.

I was talking to a close friend's fiancee recently.  For the record, they just got married.  She is in her early twenties, he is in his mid twenties.  She came right out and told me that she has been planning her wedding since she saw Pretty Woman when she was frickin' 9!  Sitting in her trailer, just waiting for Richard Gere to give her a comfortable life of means because she is so special.  That scared the CRAP out of me for my buddy!  

To me, love is in the details.  My Aunt and Uncle--married 35 years and never happier or more in love Smiley--always place eachoter's needs above their own.  According to my Aunt, it's because their ultimate need is their partner's happiness.  They are best friends and have been since they got engaged.  There have been rough times, but they always knew that the other was there for them and that got them through.

Obviously, I could go one forever Tongue  Hopefully, this is what you were looking for Smiley

Keep the Faith!

H
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Stephen
Guest
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Of Course it can Smiley, posted by Howard on May 25, 2003

But you're not old enough to be giving such good advice.

Thanks.

Stephen
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Howard
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Excellent....., posted by Stephen on May 25, 2003

Stephen

You know I have always respected and listened to my elders Wink

Give my best to your lovely wife Cheesy

Keep the Faith

H
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Jeff S
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Love can it last?, posted by Peter Lee on May 24, 2003

Love isn't something that you fall into or find. It's not soomething that grows like a plant nor something that withers and dies. There's no mystery nor delicate chemical balance to it. Love is something you DO ..... every day, day after day. Sure, there's the pitter patt of your heartbeat when your sweetie quickens you breath and you feel like you can do anything but is that love? NO.

Love is action, not feelings, comittment not magnetism. It's including your partner in your decisions even when you don't want to. It's listening when you know she's wrong. It's supporting her in spite of what your friends or family say. It's doing whatever it takes to make you two a team.
Love is like self-esteem. It's not something you teach or can be nurtured or cultivated. It's the result of action. Want to feel self esteem? Win a tournament, get your story published, achieve something - only then do you really have the self esteem. Likewise with love - Do love first, then feel it later. Do it for years, feel it for years. Stop doing it for a day or two and guess what, you "fall out of love." Start doing it again, and viola! you suddenly "fall back in love."

Just my, never to be humble, opinion.

Jeff
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Peter Lee
Guest
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Caca de toro.., posted by Jeff S on May 24, 2003

Sounds very nice, it is what happens if there is still that attraction.   The mystery is how some couples in less than 7 years actually hate each other.  What then if I would replace your word love for caring, respect, loyalty or attraction?
I don't believe love can be defined.  Love is a mystery of life. It has careing, loyalty, respect, feeling, attraction, and the thirsting need to be with that person.  If it can’t be defined then you can describe what it does to you.  
Now, I have seen women love their man despite being mistreated, beaten and used.
I have seen women treated so well they became spoiled but they did not love their lover.  So:  
TO LOVE IS NOTHING
TO BE LOVED IS SOMETHING
TO BE LOVED AND TO LOVE IS EVERYTHING
That is what I believe we are all looking for
I can't think of anything worse than loving someone and not getting love back in return.  
It can make you a fool for love.
But the word love is still a mystery and seems indefinable so poetry and sonnets will have to do.
Your attempt to define the indefinable was a brave one.
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Mita
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Caca de toro.., posted by Jeff S on May 24, 2003

Amor con amor se paga.  
My mother said her mother always said that but was disappointed when it didn't work for her.  Despite my mother's bad experience, I've always kept those words of wisdom close to my heart.
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stefang
Guest
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Caca de toro.., posted by Jeff S on May 24, 2003

Jeff you should write books instead of the so called experts.
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Stephen
Guest
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to Caca de toro.., posted by Jeff S on May 24, 2003

You know, you just can't beat the wisdom we old farts can give out.

By the way, Tess is hungry for Chinese food again....you know that place we meet for lunch.  Give me a call.  I can't get throught to you on your email.

Stephen
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Jeff S
Guest
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
... in response to That's very good....., posted by Stephen on May 24, 2003

You betcha Stephen. I'm always up for Dim Sum. I'll give you a call.

- Jeff
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