New wife associating with illegal immigrants

[soltero]

Just curious as to the board's opinion on this. Here in Atlanta, we have a HUGE community of illegals, mainly mexicans, but hondurans and many others. I am not the type of person to limit anyone else, but I think that allowing my soon to be ex-wife to come in contact with the illegal population helped to hasten the demise of my marriage. I saw that she was having trouble communicating with neighbors and my family, so I didn't see anything wrong with her making friends with other spanish speakers. I tried to intoduce her to some professional people I know, but she didn't seem interested in getting to know them. The only thing that I was uncomfortable with was the fact that she wasn't coming in contact with any educated hispanicson her own, only the ones who are here illegally and struggling to make it. There is nothing wrong with that, or so I thought, but I saw her changing in many ways, and I am still not sure if she was already like that and just hiding it from me or I just didn't know, or because it was due to her new friend's influence. I am not going to go into the changes here, just curious to find out if anyone has had a similar experience after bringing their bride here.

[Seeker]

... in response to New wife associating with illegal immigr..., posted by soltero on Oct 13, 2004

Soltero et al.,
I welcome and admire any man who has the guts to pursue his dreams beyond his physical and cultural borders of comfort and familiarity. Obviously, most of the guys on this forum fall into this category, including yourself. So I congratulate you on this and more power to you. I hope you haven't given up and that you'll soon be sharing some great news with us.

With all due respect, do you honestly believe you have the power or right to allow or not allow your wife to come into contact with the illegal population of Atlanta? How could you have prevented this from occuring? Let's assume her contact with the illegal population did contribute to the unraveling of your marriage; however, the critical question is to what extent? How many other hundreds of variables may have also contributed to this outcome? I'm concerned that you'll conclude that the success of a future relationship will depend on your ability to distant her as much as possible from the "illegal population." What if she is a medical doctor for a low-income neighborhood or a social worker?

In general, I believe that perspectives on illegal immigration are often based on whether or not you have this issue confronting members of your own family. From the women I've met in Colombia, I've noticed that many  have a relative or a friend who reside in the United States illegally. Perhaps one day, you'll have a member of your adored wife's family in this category. In the back of your mind, you'll be aware of the Harvard economists who theorize about the benefit-cost analysis of illegal immigration, but it won't matter to you. Suddenly, illegal immigration will not be a passing segment on the evening news, or a social virus from which you can vaccinate your loved ones. An illegal alien will be a loved family member or your wife's childhood friend for whom you'll go out of your way to assist, because you'll recognize the common sense decision he or she has made to be in this country, albeit illegally. Perhaps one day you'll experience first hand the racism and discrimination toward your Colombiana for her limited English skills, her cultural differences, her physical appearance. You may resent that others will not be capable or will not care to distinguish her from the "illegal population" and therefore, she will be treated similarly. At this point, I believe you or anyone confronting similar experiences will be able to see more eye-to-eye with me regarding this matter. Racism and discrimination takes on a personal note when it affects a family member or close friend.  Until then, I'm not surprised my perspective on illegal immigration is polar opposite to many of the members on this forum.  

[soltero]

... in response to In response to my critics on undocumente..., posted by Seeker on Oct 16, 2004

Thanks for bringing this to me in this manner. I never understood the need to flame in any disagreement other than it might be entertaining to other readers with nothing else going on. I think that there may have been some misconception as to my intent in the post. I never try to limit a person in anyway. People have the right to excel or fall on their own merit and based on their own choices. I try to help in any way I can, and give advice if it is requested, but I believe in free will. I have no issue with illegal immigrants at all. Everyone here immigrated at one point or another throughout history and perhaps being part Native American, I hold to the same belief that land belongs to everyone just like air and water.  I agree that there were many other variables that added to the ruination of my marriage, but this was one of them and I was hoping to see if it was unique or if other posters had had similar experiences. Personally, I don't have a problem with anyone, and I tend to look more towards what is good in a person more than what may be wrong with them. This affords me the ability to basically get along with anyone as I don't prejudge. I let people show me why I should not associate with them instead of bringing preconceived prejudices to the table.

What I was able to observe was the obvious affect that my wife's new relationships with the people she was associating with had on her. For one, I am Black. Due to my Native American heritage, I have a reddish/caramel skin tone for lack of a better description. In Honduras, her extended family ranged from lighter than me to darker than me, and some were exactly my complexion. She had no problem with the difference in our complexions there. That was something that she developed here. She actually became quite racist in some of the things she would say, not directed towards me, but towards other Blacks, and it was obvious that she was parroting what she was being told, especially since her younger sister is darker than I am. This is only one instance as there were others. Certain individuals saw "illegal immigrants" in the title of the post and decided to run with it without truly reading what I posted and answering my question. I am sorry if my post was misinterpreted to include all illegal immigrants, but since it has been, I would like to make a statement based on my personal observations.

I have noticed that normally, most hispanics are very good and decent people but she headed towards the negative subculture within the subculture. To say that all hispanics move here to be law abiding, hard working people is naive and kind of hypocritical. There are ignorant, lazy and unlawful people in any group. To say that there aren't is not to wise. I can understand the desire to maintain your culture and heritage as these things are important, but any group that does not understand the need to grow and change to adapt to new situations is doomed to failure. The people that she began to associate with mocked anything to do with American culture including learning the language. Funny, because the men would learn out of necessity, but they made the women seem stupid for wanting to try.  I can understand perfectly the benefit that they would receive from this as they could keep their women in check more if no one else could talk to them. My experience was that there were certain individuals in that group that made it a mission to ridicule my wife and subvert my marriage, and I understand that it was not a strong marriage to begin with for them to be able to do that, but it may have been if given the chance. I can only speak on my personal interactions, and that is why I made the post. I was hoping to see if I could find similar experiences from other points of view, and yes, part of my reason for putting this out there was to determine if distancing any future wife I might have from this influence, at least until our bond was stronger, would be a wise and necessary course of action.

[Seeker]

... in response to Re: In response to my critics on undocum..., posted by soltero on Oct 16, 2004

Soltero,
I'm not interested in the flaming wars either. This is why I thought it would be best to get back to you since you were the one to begin this thread. I appreciate your good-natured response and found lots of common ground in what you said. You're absolutely right with regards to there being "ignorant, lazy and unlawful people in any group." Since I've worked primarily with Latino immigrants for the past 8 years, I'm well aware of the limiting effects that occur when immigrants decide to isolate themselves from mainstream American culture and undermine their opportunities to learn English. I apologize for going off on a tangent that distracted others from providing you the feedback that you were seeking.

[soltero]

... in response to I appreciate your clarification, posted by Seeker on Oct 17, 2004

Apology accepted, but unnecessary. It was just a misunderstanding and you made your point intelligently. This is a mostly open forum and I believe all points of view are relevant as they enlighten us good or bad as to who we are and what our purpose is. There was nothing wrong with anything you said, it just didn't have anything to do with what I was inquiring. Even in misunderstandings we have the potential to gain insight and information. I enjoyed your posts even though they did not answer my question.

[gkdrummer]

... in response to New wife associating with illegal immigr..., posted by soltero on Oct 13, 2004

For 20 years I was married to a Honduranian/Cuban girl, who moved to Miami when she was 7.   I have lost count of the times she told me that she was asked "why are you with a gringo?" - usually by Mexicans and always asked in an unfavorable tone.  I had problems concerning her fidelity around Mexican men throughout our entire marraige until she moved out 3 years ago due to yet another Mexican she was involved with.  Yesterday, she told me that she will be marrying a different Mexican in December.  
Although I chalk up most of her behavior to selfishness, I feel strongly that the comments she received helped to plant and nurture a seed of discontent.  I have come to believe that it is often true that "you can take the chica out of the barrio, but you can't take the barrio out of the chica" - I am not saying this from the perspective of wanting her to lose her culture, but rather from the possibility that she will feel there is "something" missing in her marraige to a gringo.    
Obviously, this doesn't apply to ALL latinas, and I envy those who have found the exceptions!!

[Locii]

... in response to Re: New wife associating with illegal im..., posted by gkdrummer on Oct 14, 2004

Your experience was very similar to my (AW) marriage.

The version of the phrase you mentioned that I am familiar with is "You can take the girl out fo the bar, but not the bar out of the girl", obviously relating to some people who try a real relationship with a working-girl type.

In Key West, I see SO MANY females come from a foreign land and change dramatically in their behaviors.  Most of them are eastern european (Czech)...and the things I have seen have basically put me off eastern europeans forever.  But you know what the kicker is?   Often times the males will go back home to visit/live (especially when they marry), but when the women do, they are in a scramble to get back here pronto.  it is so predictable its funny.  If that isn't the lesson we all need  to get, I don't know what is.

I watched my brother's Czech wife re-invent herself to what SEEMED to be a totally different person.  However, I knew her well enough, and she and her friends confided in me, that, in fact, she became ther person she always was...its as if she had put herself on hold for a few years when she was with my brother.

Case in point: she confided in me that when she went to university (in Praha) and away from home for the first time, her parents were giving her money for an apartment.  She accepted it, even while her new businessman boyfriend was paying for her apartment and lifestyle.  I don't care what anyone says, that takes a certain amount of "long term dishonesty" that is a deep character trait.  So when her marriage to my brother dissolved as her 'personality changed', only I could see that it was her true nature coming out.

Ciao

[Jamie]

... in response to New wife associating with illegal immigr..., posted by soltero on Oct 13, 2004

People associate with those that they feel most comfortable with. If your soon to be ex did not associate with “professional” people it was due to her belief that she did not fit in with such people. It is not likely that you ex was influenced by the “illegals” without already being under the influence of shared similarities. Judging from my experience many men don’t get to know the women they are interested in. They will come down and visit a fiancé for one or two weeks and maybe understand 100 words of the same language and rarely or never use a translator. Or if they do speak the language they don’t ask the 100’s of questions that need to be asked to determine suitability. I have spent time with beautiful Colombian women with no shared language and have had a great time. I don’t need a translator to have sex, or to enjoy a tasty meal or frolic in the ocean or to go dancing the communication is body language and physical. Yet at the same time I knew I was just having fun, whereas many men enjoy the same fun as a basis for building a future family without knowing the strength and durability of the foundation. They don’t know what their fiancé’s thinks and more importantly how they think. I had a recent client come down to visit a girl for 6 days. He used a translator for one day. At the end of that day he tells me, “boy, I learned a lot of things…” Well he did not learn enough to use a translator the next day but one of the things he learned from the translator was that his girlfriend loved watching television. While they were having coffee he was getting annoyed that she was constantly watching television while he was trying to talk with her using the translator. She would answer his questions but she was easily distracted by the television. He almost never watched television. When he voiced his disapproval at her behavior she responded that well you work on computers too much (he is a programmer) instead of relaxing more. We are now beginning to see a clear compatibility problem. This college educated, intelligent man is interested in a woman easily distracted by a glowing television (I’ll let you conclude the cause of such behavior) who defends her position by attacking the man for working hard something she has no experience doing herself. And while the man tells me yes that concerns him it didn’t concern him enough not to take the next step – make her my wife. If you want to avoid another divorce the first think you need to do is shoulder the responsibility, unless of course someone besides yourself choose her to be your wife.

Jamie
Engage the Exotic - Latin Women
http://Latin-Wife.com

[soltero]

... in response to Re: New wife associating with illegal im..., posted by Jamie on Oct 14, 2004

All good points, except I do speak spanish, just not fluently. My spanish is much better now than it was in the beginning. Your advice is always pretty sound and to the point. There were a lot of red flags that I ignored. I went out on this totally green as I had not found this forum or any other information before I started, but what I was really asking is if anyone has had experience with this as far as the illegals trying to subvert or belittle someone in a marriage of this type. I have found that they do not approve of it and they try to do everything they can to make the woman feel like she has done something wrong and offer aid or advice on how to get out of it after they have convinced her that she needs to be with her own. Not only the men, but the women also preach this. I know what I did wrong in ignoring the flags, and I have learned from that costly mistake. Right now, I am just trying to find out if there are any other instances where illegal or otherwise "friends" of a new mate try to influence her against the relationship.

[Jamie]

... in response to Re: Re: New wife associating with illega..., posted by soltero on Oct 14, 2004

My wife took English classes with recent arrivals from Mexico. I do not know if they were illegal or not but they did have low paying jobs. I have never had any concerns who she associated with or what they say about me. The only feedback I got from her was on men hitting on her which is part of life for any man with a good looking woman. No one says worst things about me than her mother and since she does not take her advice she is unlikely to take the advice of new friends.
My wife also models (here is a recent photo http://www.latin-wife.com/personal_intro.asp the first picture) so she associates with a variety of economic levels and professions. She has white single women and divorce women who are her friends. The only questioning she hears regarding me has come from professional female doctors that have never seen me who ask how did an “old” guy like me get you. If you have a strong relationship you don’t need to concern yourself with outside forces. A man has to believe, feel and act has if the woman is as much a winner for having him as he is for having her. A woman that does not want to be with me for any reason is all I need to know for not wanting to be with her. If you have "value" as a husband there will never be a shortage of good women willing to open their doors to you prior to locking and throwing away the key. It is what between you and her that matters and determines the strength and longevity of the relationship not anyone else. Choose wisely.

Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

[Locii]

... in response to Re: Re: New wife associating with illega..., posted by soltero on Oct 14, 2004

Hi Soltero,

I think what you have experienced is pretty universal, and while it affected your marriage specifically, it is a common kind of thing that is hardly specific to marrying a foreign bride.

When I was in my early twenties, I had the ability to earn about 4X what most of my male acquaintances earned (with my computer knowledge) and, being self-taught, I had never finished college (most of them had).  I didn't realize it at the time (oblivious to warning signs like you) but what I came to realize is that most of the people I knew were, in effect, damaging my marriage, and the fact that, in general, I had things that they did no seemed to have a lot to do with it.  My wife had the very female trait of complaining to our 'friends' about me.  They would get together and commiserate, judge, convict, and carry out sentence against me while I went about my life.  It would only come up in arguments, where, out of nowhere, I would hear, "...well all our friends think that you are wrong about [fill in blank]".

I did, finally, convince her that her friends didn't know sh**, that it was none of their business, and that it was her error to share with them our (her) difficulties without me.  I say finally because it took a seperation and divorce, and now ten years later, she still wants me back.  My point is ONLY to remind you that this is a universal thing...the fact that you have a wife who uses English as a second language merely makes the divisions easier and wider.

You seem to make the distinction that 'educated people' would not influence your wife the way these people did.  Well my world, at the time, was 90% a University setting, with (too) well intentioned people sticking their fingers in my marriage.  I really think it comes down to positive versus negative people, not how much school they have.  

The upshot of it was that my ex-wife was not a trusting person...for some reason she trusted people who she 'felt good about or could relate too' more than me...just as Jamie was pointing out.

Sorry it worked out for you the way it did.  Try to look at it positively, that it takes two brave, smart people with common interests to make any marriage work...and she told you in so many ways that she was not brave or smart enough.

Ciao

[soltero]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: New wife associating with il..., posted by Locii on Oct 14, 2004

I appreciate your comments, especially the closing. As much as I wanted to think differently, it did all boil down to your last statement. She is now with the people she feels comfortable with, and now matter how much I might want her to have a better and more productive life, she is going to have the one she is most used to with the people that she relates to. One day, so will I, just not with her. I try not to judge people, and I can get along with anyone in any setting, but this experience has taught me that there are certain things that need to be there for both people to have compatibility, and she didn't have them and was unable to change.

[WS244]

... in response to New wife associating with illegal immigr..., posted by soltero on Oct 13, 2004

Sorry about the demise of the marriage.  When you saw she  was having trouble communicating, your marriage was already over.  The only way you could have kept your wife away from less desirable people, was to be living in colombia, where the man is still the decision maker of the household.  Next time find a girl of the same class and character as yourself, and though guessing, not base much of your decision on her looks and youth, which I notice a good number of those on this website seem to base their decisions on, and have met with the same demise.  At 58, my colombiana is 44, and while it would be quite easy to find a 30 year old 9, I am more interested in self preservation.
regards, ws

[Fuzzyone]

... in response to Re: New wife associating with illegal im..., posted by WS244 on Oct 13, 2004

My ex was always brought up as she was upper class, so when she came to live with me as my wife we had lots of trouble. She use to call me low class, she called everyone she worked with low class. It got to the point well you know... she hit the door and it did not hit her in the butt..  She never did find a person that was of her class.

[Seeker]

... in response to Re: New wife associating with illegal im..., posted by WS244 on Oct 13, 2004

I'm shocked that anyone on this forum would refer to "illegal immigrants" as "less desirable people." Some of my family members fall in this category, and I've never had anything but admiration for them. I know about the limited economic opportunities for them in Mexico that motivate them to  risk suffocating in the trunk of a car to come and work to the United States. I admire the hard working undocumented farm workers that I come into contact with on a daily basis. For years, I have chosen a long commute to have the privilege and great responsibility to educate their children. Many of these people encounter unimaginable challenges on a daily basis and submit themselves to incredible sacrifices to support loved ones back home. I don't judge a person by their residency status or humble origins. My father was a strawberry picker in California, but he financed my brother's education through Stanford & UC San Francisco's medical school. The difference between my brother and my "illegal" cousin working as a gardener, is that my father decided to pursue the American Dream, while my aunt did not.