Heads Up....

[Aaron]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&ncid=574&e=6&u=/nm/20021101/wl_nm/colombia_drugs_dc_1

[Cali vet]

... in response to Heads Up...., posted by Aaron on Nov 1, 2002

What's interesting is that the majority "man on the street" opinion in Cali is that they did their time and it's only fair they should be released. One person even commented that they'll provide a lot of jobs when released. I've often noticed this general sympathy towards the drug capos in many conversations with taxi drivers and others in Cali. None of the "these criminals are killing our children with drugs and undermining our society" attitude prevelent in the states. One university student commenting on the news however said the brothers did a huge diservice to the city by creating a false economy that collapsed and left the city in economic ruin with over 20% unemployment.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Heads Up...., posted by Cali vet on Nov 2, 2002

One of the reasons for the fallen economic situation in Colombia and Cali in particular is that the Colombia with pressure from the US came down hard on the more visable drug lords.These guys are in jail,dead or in hiding.2 out of jail now I guess.There was a imput of money in to the economy by these type of people.Billions were going from the US to Colombia.I can understand why they might have sort of a Robin Hood image among some Colombians.
Staying at the 18,000 sq. ft.Crystal Palace,the former home of Latin Love,I couldn't help but wonder who had built it and owned it before.Drug dealers I would think.I wondered if their temporary riches gave them happiness and where they were now.I immagined them killed by other drug dealers but maybe they are living in Miami.One morning about 5 AM when I was staying there we were awakened by automatic weapon fire,from an adjacent estate.I thought one drug gang was probably wiping out another one.They are not after us I thought.But I was waiting for sounds at our front door and was planning where I would hide.Actually it turned out to be the guys next door celebrating the release of one of their own from kidnapping.What was spooky was 30 miniutes or so of guns firing and explosions and no police showing up.
So I can understand some Colombians looking back fondly on the days of drug money being spent lavishly.Yes it was a temporary thing that distracted them from economic activities that would have a longer term affect.And the money contributed to more political corruption,and it seems from this report still is today.But do you really think a poor Colombian who benefits from this money is going to give a s-it about stringent US drug attitudes or some dummy that might OD?In his outlook on life its no contest.Drugs are easily available and cheap in Colombia and its not their biggest problem by a long shot.
My main concern with the drug situation is the money it is feeding to he rebels and to political corruption.If we can't control it here in the US is there really any hope of controling it in poor third world countries?If drugs get run out of Colombia,a highly unlikely event,they will just move to another poor country.I think there is much more hope of defeating the rebels than to ever control drug supply.
I for one am for legalizing drugs.But when the current US administration is harasing doctors who recommend marijuana for seriously ill patients,this seems highly unlikely,so it seems many more years of the same.As a republican I hate having to put up with that sort of nonsense in order to have an administration that encourages  a little bit of economoic reality and personal responsability and doesn't think the government owes you a living.
It guals me that people like Bush( I support most of what he is for) who talk so much about freedom want to take a doctors licence away for expressing his opinion.Fortunately the courts squashed that one.I think a certain amount of the law enforcement mentality creeps upstairs.The same thinking that says only cops should have guns and resists pilots having them in the cockpit(absolutely absurd and indefenseable)
I do understand Uribe's concern here.How can he get control of his country when judges are doing things like this?And he
needs US support in his war on terrorists.Drug money has been a 2 sided thing for Colombia and now it is having negative effects.Our inability to control consumption or quit trying has caused huge problems for them,even if alot of people there have profited.
I know this seems rambling.Whats my point?I understand Colomians fondness for drug money.But I think drug money is  counterproductive for them,so I would keep those guys in jail and clamp down on others.But the real issue is consumption and we are creating a problem for them.Maybe we can make up for it by helping them Militarily and economically.I think the rebels are a much bigger problem for Colombia than drugs are for us.
And more importantly than the drug money for them is the corruption that is so blatant through their society.It makes it hard to do anything.It will be an issue long after FARC is history.
Its not a simple situation.It makes a normally optomistic person like myself a liitle depressed.

Pete

[Aaron]

... in response to Rambling thoughts on drug money and corr..., posted by Pete E on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

I think the general population and even some of the dealers themselves had no idea how bad drugs were affecting users in the USA. Probably, most of the general Colombian population thought that it wasn't very harmful in the first place. Now, when it becomes more of a concern in the US and around the world, the message is starting to hit home why people are upset with the amount of drugs coming from Colombia and other countries. Sure, the general population may have profitted from this by having nicer cities and services, but now since they are being educated on it's effects and how the rest of the world community preceives drug consumption, many educated Colombians are realizing that the drug economy wasn't any good for them either. Eventually, the drug money is going to dry up one day, and where is that going to leave them. Sure, some barrons may have billions tucked away, and have lavish estates in a Colombian jail, but that doesn't make up for the fact that there are 1000s of other Colombians in poverty and can't find jobs because the drug lords financed either the guerrillas or paramilitaries for protection and make war against the government. And the foot soldiers in the guerrilla camps are fighting for a lost cause because it's their own violence and nacro activitiy that is preventing international investiment and trade in Colombia, resulting in a lack of jobs and growth.

As for the legalization of drugs, there is a big difference between doctors prescribing a little marijuanna for glaucoma verses allowing the legalization of heronin, crack, and other cocaine based substances. If they legalize these substances, not before long major numbers of the population in various positions of authority will experiment with them and become addicted. Once that happens, the US will fall into anarchy. And actually, that would be a wonderful thing for the narcos and their sympathsizers, as well as for the al Quaida click who hate our guts. Pete, ealier this year, when I went to Australia, I learned the valuable lesson of "be careful of what you wish for, because you might get it." Unless you yourself have used drugs and fought, and recovered addiction succesfully, then I don't think you have much insight in claiming that drugs should be legal. Just consider what addicts go through, and ask youself the question on whether or not you would want your own kids going through the same mess. Along with direct US intervention in Colombia, and more responsibility with stiffer penalties here in the US, I'm totally in favor of a cashless society, whereby everything bought and sold has to be done electronically with some kind of debit card. That will dry up allot of the drug money, and make drug sales virtually impossible and easier to track.  

As for the Crystal Palace, I hated staying there. It gave me the creeps. I only stayed there two days. And even now, I thank God that I didn't stay there any longer, and that nothing happened to me while I was there. Actually, when I learned the history of Ciudad Jardin, I decided not to go there anymore. I don't care if the most beautiful Calena in the world, with the most round bubble butt was up there just waiting for me. I'm not going.

Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Well...., posted by Aaron on Nov 2, 2002

Aaron,
It seems like we agree that Colombia would be better off if
the drug business never happened there.But as long as there is a huge demand it is going to happen somewhere and Colombia seems to be the place right now.
As far as legalizing drugs I'm not sure that it might not create more harm than the present situation,but I think that it at least deserves a serious discussion.Very few politicians are ready to tackle that one,it has a huge negative stigma attached to it.I didn't mean to imply that marijuana was comparable to hard drugs,just that with our paranoid laws about something as harmless as marijuana there isn't likely to be a serious consideration of legalizing harder drugs.
I guess first of all I come from a libertarian point of view here.I don't think the government should be in the business of protecting us from ourselves and a person who simply uses drugs without commiting any other offense should not be subject to be subject to arrest and incarceration.To me thats the worst violation of a government in a free society,to harrass and jail someone for an activity that harms no one other than themself.I know,I can hear people say now but it does harm others.Well it doesn't have to and when the person commits the act that harms others then arrest them,but not for personal use of a drug.There is an ad on TV out now about all the people affected by someones drug use,mostly by the violence associated with it.If you think about it it makes a case for legalization.Most of the harm talked about is accociated with violent activity associated with the drug dealers.If the drug was legal they would be out of business.With it illegal,as it is now,they are very much in business.And there are those one million young black men in prison for drug related crimes,most I believe from the drug business side of it,not the drug use side of it.
There are billions spent on this drug war,from cops to prisons to operations in foriegn governments like Colombia.Still it florishes.And the amount of dollars leaving the country because of this might just solve our balence of payments problem,or at least make a huge dent in it.And just a small portion of the money saved could be used to fund all kinds of treatment educational programs.And there is the huge diservice to countries like Colombia,interjecting money to corrupt officials and support gurilla activity.
Against this you have to weight the conserquences of legalization.Just the list of problems caused by our present system would argue for at least seriously considering the legalization alternative.Let me point to drug use,not dealer activity in Colombia.It doesn't seem to be a huge problem.At least way down the list of their problems.But as in the medical marijuana example there is a very powerfull group of people against this.The attitude about medical marijuana opens shows minds completely closed to the idea of even considering that it just might be better to leave people alone.No way.The persons talking loudest about freedom want to tell you how to live your life.This part of the conservative political scene drives me crazy and seems to be at odds with much of their exposed philosphy of freedom and liberty.
No I have never been addicted to drugs or had to get off of them.There might be a good argument to be made here against legalization.One of the counter arguments is that cocaine is so expensive that people turned to crack which I hear is hugely more addictive.The problem is I can't believe the people who tell me that because they have lied to me so often.I have used marijuana and steroids but they did me no harm I know of.Taking testosterone dropped my colesterol from about 240 to 166,and I didn't even bother to try to adjust my diet before the test like I did when it was 240.I basically eat whatever I want and its 166.Maybe there is unseen harm done,but there is seen benefit.I don't use marijuana anymore,I basically don't bother with it.The closest I have come to doing others harm was by ingesting the stuff we can buy at 7-11 and driving,but fortunately,thank god, no harm done and my wild days are over there.
Again,maybe the harm of legalization would be worse than all off the harm and injustice of our present system.I'm sure I missed listing alot of negatives of the present system.Again I think it deserves at least a  serious debate.
Again I'm a libertarian at heart.Every since I was a child I have had a problem with people trying to tell me what to do.I guess its called hostility to authority.I have always hated authority,and I'm not a person who ever got in much trouble.So there this part of me that says,leave people alone,if they kill themselves so be it.When I watch these "cops" shows I just get piss-d off.I watched one where they set up this girl to solicit the guy for prostitution and then busted her.She said "why are you doing this?"I had to agree.My last trip to jury duty I was on the prospective jury when they described the case.Soliciting for prostitution.I told the judge I thought it was silly for us to be there.I got bounced of course.
Politically I am not a libertarian,mostly because of their isolationist ideas.I think thats a big mistake.This world is getting effectively smaller all the time and as the worlds only superpower we do not need to put our head in the sand.(I know,someone may think I'm doing that)
Aaron you may be right about the effects of legalization.You may have seen much more to convince you.To me its a matter of principle.Maybe thats nieve.
I loved the Cristal Palace but I never stayed there after the robberies.That might have made me a little nervious.There is one guy here in San Jose who will never go back to Colombia let alone that house.I guess I don't know the Ciudad Jardine story.Is it all drug money?I am always amazed at some of the pricy stores in Chipi Chapi.Its too expensive for me and I'm rich by Colombian standards.Who buys this stuff?Must be drug money.
Got to get off my soap box and make a work call.

Pete

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Well...., posted by Pete E on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

Pete,

It's fine to have liberal views, but extreme liberalism (total freedom)for everyone leads to anarchy. It's a catch 22 because it is totally impossible to have a society, but let every citizen of that society be totally free. There has to be some rules, guidelines, norms, mores, folkways, laws, etc. etc.. Other wise, the society will fall into anarchy.

As for the legalization of drugs. Sure, the violent crimes associated with the trafficking of drugs may be less, but there will be more "social drug use." And, with hard drugs like crack and heroine, the concept of "socially using crack, cocaine, or heroine" is totally fallacious.

These are the facts about crack, during the first use, the body is addicted. Then the psycholgical addiction starts that makes the person believe that he or she cannot live without the drug, and they need more and more of the drug to achieve the initial high they experienced during the initial use. So, they go out and spend all their time and resources thinking of ideas, plotting, and planning to get more crack. They even do this at the expense of becoming sicker and sicker by using the drug, and not spending money for basic hygene and food for proper nutrition. Crack also alters the physiological structure of the brain and the brain chemistry. The end result is that the person becomes physically dependent on the drug and psychologically dependent on the drug to the point that they'll do anything for it.

As for heroine. Well once a person reaches addition, he or she must maintain a certain level of the drug in the blood system constantly. If they can't maintain the level required to maintain homostasis, they slip into withdraw and start having convulsions, and there is a high likelihood that they'll die unless they have more of the drug to maintain homostasis. So heroine addicts are faced with the dilema that they have to use an addictive drug to live, or they will die. That's why treatments that mimic the effects of heroine are given to heroine additics through stages to ween them off of the actual drug.  

Let me give you some examples:

1.) Growing up, I once knew a guy who was a decent guy when he was younger. But, after he started to use crack, he changed completely. The drug dealers taughnted him to perform humiliating things for crack. He did it just for the drugs. He performed oral sex on another male drug dealer for crack. He also climbed a telephone pole wearing boxer shorts just for crack. He was black.  

2.) The other incident that I experienced was when I was working in a leading psychiatric hospital here in the USA. About 6 years ago. I worked in a psychiatric ward for  children with psychiatric developmental disorders. On my first day at work, I can remember seeing a little pale skinned girl. Her hair was shaved short, but there were patches of skin where there had not been any hair at all. The little girl weighed about 50 pounds, very frail. All she did all day was crouch down in a ball, and she screamed to the top of her lungs and cry all day. What was her problem, I asked my supervisor. MY SUPERVISOR TOLD ME THAT THE GIRL'S PARENTS WERE SO DESPERATE THAT THEY SOLD HER FOR SEX TO THEIR DRUG SUPPLIERS JUST TO RECEIVE CRACK FROM WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 4 UP UNTIL SHE WAS 10 YEARS OLD. Also that the girl was so emotional scared that she engaged in self-inflicting injurous behavior by pulling her hair out in chunks at a time; that the patches of skin without hair were spots where she pulled out her own hair, and that it is best to shave her head so she can't pull out anymore hair. The girl and her parents were white.

These are just two cases of many I've seen. I could go on and on, and what I've seen strengthened me and convinced me to never get involved with drugs.

As for the young black men in jail who are facing drug charges. Well, they're guilty too. There is nothing so difficult that they face that forced them to get involved in the drug business. No one forced them to do it. Granted, some may have come from families where drug abuse was common, but I'm sure that isn't the case for the vast majority of them.
My whole attitude towards them is to lock them up, and throw away the key for some. However, what is not fair is when a young black male gets arrested and has to serve 10 to 15 years for a bag of crack, but then a white upper level drug dealer who supplies lower level people can pay a substantial fine, and maybe snitch and tip off the police about future deals and other dealers, and be sentenced for 5 years !!!! That's not fair, and it happens too often. The drug problem is a problem for everyone regardless of race.

Another point about "letting people do what they want to do, and that a person's personal behavior wont affect other people." Well, Cartel de Cali was probably only about 10 to 20 central key people, with other associates. However, this 100 or less group of people spread cocaine around the world bringing in about 8 billion USD per year during the time they were in business. They just didn't affect Cali, and they just didn't snort a few lines of powder for personal use either.

Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Well Well Well...., posted by Aaron on Nov 2, 2002

Aaron,
You make a good case.Especially for crack.For sure there would be a down side to legalization,but there might be an
alternative.Make hard drugs or hard drug substitutes available to those already hooked,which would mostly kill the illegal market.Then don't provide them to new users.There might be something we could do that would be better than our current situation.
I'm talking hard drugs here.Marijuana I would legalize.Steroids I would put back in the hands of doctors.
And I would revise the FDA hugely to make drugs that have promise available without hundreds of millioms of dollars of testing.I would warn people about any possible risks and let them take thier chances if they want.We are so restrictive in this country.You see news reports about promising new drugs,followed by a statement that they will not be available for at least 5 years while FDA screws around.I bet lots of foriegn objects have gone through TV screens over that one.We are going to let you die while we decide if this drug is not only safe but if it meets our effectiveness parameters.Can you immagine being termanily ill ,being in a study group and being one of the ones getting the placebo?That should be criminal.
OK,time to get back to the chicas.

Pete

[markxport]

... in response to Rambling thoughts on drug money and corr..., posted by Pete E on Nov 2, 2002

As long as you have consumption of narcotics in this country, you are going to have people producing, trafficing, distributing and selling narcotics.  

I don't have a realistic answer to solve the problem, but I can sympathize with poor farmers raising cocoa or poppies to feed their families.  

I've supported Bush, but even he has been accused of drug use (coke) many years ago.  And remember Clinton's "I didn't inhale" line of BS.  What message does this send to our citizens and those in the third world.  Just my 2 cents.

Take care,

Mark

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Heads Up...., posted by Cali vet on Nov 2, 2002

CV,

Was that university student a female? If so, I'll marry her tomorrow. She makes allot of sense.

Putting all jokes aside, I think the reasons why there is so much public support on the "streets" in Cali is that many of the poorer and less educated people remember the hay days when the drug money flowed freely and built the city. They want to see those days again because there was money and jobs, but now there isn't any thing.

The same ignorant people don't realize the larger ball game with the drug business. It practically turned their country into a lawless ghetto, with their own currupt leaders making off with the proceeds and providing jobs for other people, money laundering, buying politicians, etc. etc..

The opinions of these people make me believe that they don't realize what commitment and changes have to be made to change their country for the better. As for the attitude that "these guys did their time" , well in my opinion, they should have been sentenced to life without the possibility for parole, or executed.

What Uribe and the US are trying to do is to show that there is a consequence if someone wants to get involved with the drug business. However, the shannanigins played by this judge who wants to free these bozzos totally undermines the message Uribe and the US want to send to the general public. Now, people will think "well, a nacro-trafficker in Colombia only has to serve 10 years, then will be released, it's only a slap on the wrist. I'll take the risk to make millions and support my family."

Also, this judge totally shows how committed "some" judicial officials are with Uribe's and US efforts to stop the flow of drugs. Plain and simple, many are not committed to making a change, and they're going for themselves.

As much as I would like to see Colombia handle their own problem and clean up their own country; well I'm sorry. I'm under the impression that they can't do it by themselves. AND to put an end to this whole mess, I'm totally in favor of 1.) Americans being more responsible and stop using drugs with stiffer penalties; and 2.) American forces going down to occupy certain regions of the country to fight directly with these thugs (make it bloody and take no prisoners).

Whoever is reading this post, the next time you're
in Cali looking for a wife, I advice you not to bring this issue up with people. When you first meet the girl, don't mention it. However, after you know the girl for a while, and feel comfortable with her, ask to see how she feels about this topic. If the girl is in favor of the release of these bozzos, then IT'S A MAJOR RED FLAG.

Aaron

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Heads Up...., posted by Aaron on Nov 2, 2002

They didn't identify the student by sex but it was an intelligent observation. I think the attitude of the girls one meets depends on their socio-economicic position. It's difficult for us to imagine how pervasive the narco influence is down here. It seems like everywhere I go someone is pointing out a narco's estate to me. This  happened in Bahia Solano, in Trujillo-Valle and La Cumbre among others. I've met numerous girls through the agencies who've had some connection or other. One was a young widow, her narco husband shot in Bogota. Another's father was an accountant for them and my own novia's ex cunado was a bodyguard for them and did two years in jail. It's just everywhere.

On the military, general somebody or other gave a speach in Colombia (I think Bogota) yesterday in which he went out of his way to make it very clear that in the process of training Colombian troops to protect American pipelines the US trainer troops wouldn't hesitate to "defend themselves" against any attack. I use the quotes because I thought his manner was just shy of confrontational. With avowed hawks heading up both countries I don't imagine it will be long before American troops start "defending themselves" in Colombia. Now I'm not trying to imply that I'm agin' it. Selfishly speaking I couldn't be happier than to have the freedom to travel anywhere in Colombia and see it's wonderfull sights without fear of being kidnapped or killed. I just say "!Ojo!" and hope it doesn't have to get a lot worse before (and if) it starts to get better.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Heads Up....or duck and cove..., posted by Cali vet on Nov 2, 2002

do you think these guys would stay in Colombia if they were ever released

I highly doubt it, given the current political climate and the eve of more US involvment.

Actually, I think someone probably tipped these guys off in jail about future plans by Uribe and the US, and they realized it would be a good idea for them to try and get out of jail (bribe their ways out) and skip the country before Uncle Sam has the opportunity to have them extradited and tried in a US court. Eventually, that's what is going to happen to them, and it will happen allot sooner given that the US is stepping up their role down there. Heck, they were probably living like kings in the Colombian prison, but just imagine how things will be once they come to a US jail cell. 4 walls, 3 meals, a cott, 3 smokes, metal toilet, and no conjugal visits.

Aaron

[Cali vet]

... in response to Cali Vet, you know what ..... , posted by Aaron on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by Cali vet]

Aaron,

Since this a puente they can't be released untill Tues at the earliest and the Uribe govt. is fighting tooth and nail to keep it from happening. Supposedly there are already four luxury vehicles lined up waiting for them at the prison gates. Extradition was only reinstated in 1997 and applies to crimes committed since then so they're probobly off the hook unless they can be proved to have been naughty in recent years.

On Ciudad Jardin you should check the post on the "friendly talkzone" discussion forum at www.poorbuthappy.com. Think you'll get a kick out of it.

Cali-vet

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Cali Vet, you know what ..... , posted by Cali vet on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

CV,

The judge's ruling for the release has been blocked. I'm glad. Also, there are reports that the US made a new request to extradite these guys. I'm glad. I think the US is eventually going to be able extradite these guys, regardless if the extradition policy was reinstated in 1997. The US and Uribe government will find a way to get around that. Just imagine what Bush thought when he heard of the judge's decision !!!!! LOL !!!!!

I'm kind of scared of travelling to Cali right now. I think this opened up a huge can of worms for gringos travelling there.

Aaron