Clarification of my latest Bogota trip

[lswote]

I didn´t make it clear in my post in ¨My lastest Bogota trip¨ thread, but I have known the girl I proposed to for awhile. I first met her at an agency party 6 weeks ago but didn´t pay any attention to her because she spoke only Spanish and wasn´t my ideal physical type. It was only when the folks at the agency asked me to reconsider Spanish speaking girls that I made an effort to get to know her. I have been seeing and talking to her along with another girl since my last visit 2 weeks ago but was unsure of the direction to go with either girl. I had only one date scheduled with her this weekend because I was only in town for 2 days and I was seeing the 2 girls I was interested in, along with several new ones.

The other girl made more sense looking at the way I normally pick girls, but this girl has really been showing me her interest in me the last couple weeks and things finally to a place where I made a decision.

Sorry for the confusion.

[lswote]

... in response to Clarification of my latest Bogota trip, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

These responses are quite surprising.  I have been talking to this girl everyday for the last 2 weeks.  While she wasn't my first choice she has been really becoming special to me and I was torn about which of the girls I should pursue, the one that seemed like a better fit or the one who I was developing feelings for (which is the one I proposed to).  A proposal is a long way from getting married.  You don't ask these girls to go steady, this is a marriage agency not a dating service for God's sake and I want to concentrate on a relationship with her, not a bunch of others.  Getting married is no overnight event.  There is the filing and waiting for the fiancee visa, then scheduling a wedding in Colombia, which is where I would want to get married.  I think I will be lucky if I can get married in less than 6 months.  That is a lot of time to find out the relationship is a mistake and change my mind (or she hers).

You know a lot of these girls lose interest in American guys because they aren't willing to commit to marriage but treat the agency like some kind of dating service.  It might travel around the agency that I move pretty quickly in a relationship, but it will also get around that I am sincere and am not just saying it to get laid.

I was sincere with Martha and I am sincere with this girl.  Martha dumped me, I didn't dump her.  I am sure many of you guys have the luxury of taking a lot of time, but I am lonely as hell, have no family or close friends and I want to start a life with someone.  I think the timeframe it will take to actually get to the point we can get married will be more than enough time to get a pretty good idea if it is going to be a mistake.  I am willing to take a certain amount of risk just to get out of my god-awful lonely life style.

[oakham]

... in response to Surprising answers, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

You are so right about getting to know the lady.  I visited a pretty latina in Mexico several times but found that my spiritual pursuits suffered because she would not allow me to lead her to a deeper spiritual connection and life fulfillment.  So we cordially agreed to end our relationship to find more compatiable mates. She is Catholic but had told me in the beginning that she was open to spirituality. My mentor advised me not to continue with someone that was not progressing in like spirituality.

[Pete E]

... in response to Surprising answers, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

Bruce,
I thought I set the speed record proposing to my wife on our fourth date,5 days after meeting her.I guess I am lucky it worked out but in hindsight it was not the smart thing to do.
Among the other risks you take in doing this is that the woman will have no respect for you.She is probably thinking whats going on with this guy more than wow I found the man of my dreams.You didn't give us her reaction,I assume it was yes or you would have told us.I think it starts you out
in the relationship percieved by her in a less than possitive manner.
Yes you are right,this adventure is about marriage and women do expect you to follow through,but it sounds like you are just going for the first halfway acceptable one.
If you do take 6 months to follow through that will give you some time to evaluate the situation,but I think you got the relationship off on a bad note with your hasty actions.
I can understand being lonely,but whats wrong with taking at least a week or two to decide?
I hope I am wrong and you get lucky also,but it sounds like a recipe for disaster.I can almost hear the sad follow up tale now.

Pete

[lswote]

... in response to Re: Surprising answers, posted by Pete E on Oct 14, 2002

Actually her answer was "I need to get to know you better because I don't know you well enough to answer right now, but it is definitely something I want to think about " (I am paraphasing because a translator told me what she said). But it did open the dialog to lengthy talks of marriage, kids, etc.  We talked to Nelson about a K1 visa and found that you don't have to actually have a commitment to marry to get one, but he thought it is a good idea to file one if there is an interest in marriage because it takes 90-120 days to get and is relatively inexpensive to apply for and can be easily canceled if the parties lose interest in each other.  I mentioned my proposal in the first post because it is indicative of how I feel about her.  Her answer is relevent, and I apologize for not including it, but the whole point of my original post was not whether I was a blockhead or not for proposing, it was that paying attention only to the girls who pay attention to you is VERY IMPORTANT even if the girls are not quite who you would choose otherwise.  THAT is the mantra Pete and many others have said. And that was what I was trying to confirm through my personal experience.

I don't know how many men who are responding to my posts actually have come to a marriage introduction agency, but proposing shortly after meeting is not that uncommon.  As I said, the process of getting married is not that quick and there is a pretty long time to get aquainted.

Am I desperate?  Yeah, perhaps I am.  I wouldn't have gone to Colombia in the first place if it wasn't that I was lonely, because I was scared to death of being kidnapped, murdered, or both, as soon as I stepped off the plane from all the horror stories I heard.  However after having been to Bogota 4 times now and finding it is an incredible place I realize my fears were mostly groundless, created by a news hungry media and people who like to pass along baloney, but it was only my initial loneliness that caused me put my fears aside and come the first time.

Am I looking for ANY warm body?  Hardly.  But I am not looking for the holy grail either.  I am looking for an attractive, intelligent, affectionate, faithful woman.  Not that hard to find in Bogota.  After having raised 3 stepchildren from toddlers to adults with my exwife, I have learned that love is not that hard.  You give it, you get it.  It's not rocket science.

Am I setting myself up for being scammed?  Maybe someone can scam me for awhile, its happened a time or two.  I consider it the cost of living my life with a trusting open heart.  But long enough for me to marry them without catching on?  No way.  I demand honest affection from those I care about and that is real hard to fake for very long.  Martha tried to act like she was interested for awhile because it served her purposes (I believe she is a selfish and insincere woman), but when I constantly dug at her to find how she really felt, she dumped me because it wasn't worth the trouble of putting on a front.

I am sorry I stated my case so poorly that I seemed to have lost the respect of several posters, several of who have been kind enough to have written to me personally in the past.  I regret it, because I do feel I had an important personal experience to pass on.  Pete and others have stated the importance of having a woman SHOW you she is interested.  I am a case study of what happens when you go after women where only you are interested and it was that point I thought was worth sharing.  I hope I can eventually "redeem" the poor opinion held of me by those posters because I have found the posters on this board to be a valuable resource that I hope to continue to enjoy for the indefinite future.

Bruce

[Pete E]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

Bruce,
I can understand I think.I did something somewhat similar.It just seems proposing on the day you meet her is too quick,as her response has told you.
One thing I will say.If you find the right woman your search will be over and the lonelyness a past issue.Beats the hell out of a few years of counseling.So go for it.But if you find the wrong woman you just buy yourself lots of trouble and heartache.
You already proposed here.If it doesn't work I would proceed a little more carefully next time.Someone mentioned this is a lifetime type decision.Why not tough it out a week or 2 before jumping in?The right decission here can be much better than a quick one.
Just a humerous note,if you are going this wild in Bogota what would happen if you ever went to Cali?Actually it reminded me of a guy I know.He was falling in love with every girl he met so his friend took him out to a whore house and got him laid.He said he wanted to get him thinking with his big head.

Pete

[lswote]

... in response to Not trying to be hard on you, posted by Pete E on Oct 15, 2002

Pete, you probably understand the situation best of anyone I know personally who has responded to this post.  First off I want to clarify further, boy I am having trouble getting this point across, I didn't just meet her the day I proposed.  I met her 6 weeks ago, started pursuing her in earnest on my trip 2 weeks ago, having a couple good in person dates with her, then talked to her on the phone and emailed her every day until my past trip.  Then on the second date of this trip I proposed.  Now I am not saying this still isn't fast, but it isn't the "instant proposal" everyone seems to be painting it to be.  If anything, at least I was slower than you ... LOL.

If a guy is lonely, I really don't understand the purpose of going to Colombia if you are going to take a year or years before you get married. Why be alone for so long?  Even with my ideal situation of living near Miami and having the time and money for frequent trips I am still only spending 4 days a month in Bogota, which means I am alone for 26 days a month.  I realize not every person on this board is interested in Latins because they are lonely and I understand their gameplan is going to be different, but a lot of us are lonely or at least a lot of the guys that come to the agencies are, and why prolong that loneliness for so long?  I have read the horror stories posted on here about the failed fast marriages, but I also have come across failed Colombian marriages where the courtship was over 2 years.  I have developed a good friendship with a man from one of my agency trips who actually moved to Colombia to court his eventual wife and when he brought her back to the states his marriage still failed.  As with good friendships, good marriages are built on character and character begins to reveal itself very quickly.  I plead guilty for misreading Martha's character, but I also plead a certain amount of ignorance for not understanding the rules of dating since it was my first trip and I have since changed my tactics.

I don't mind people disagreeing with my views, but to attack me and call me nuts or other derogatory terms, that I don't understand.  I am a perfectly sane man who understands exactly what I am getting myself into and it is not a case of understanding it is a case of being willing to accept the risks.  Where does it say you are obligated to take the safe path or you are nuts?

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Not trying to be hard on you, posted by lswote on Oct 15, 2002

Bruce,
I plead guilty to not reading your posts well.I didn't understand you had met her before.I thought it was the day you proposed,with maybe some writting before.I guess some of the guys got on you because you seemed to be considering another person just before proposing to this one.I think its OK to shop untill you decide.I ruled out another girl I was interested in 4 days before I proposed.
I agree this is not your typical courtship situation as in the states where you live close by and can just date untill you decide.These girls are trying to sort out the serious guys from the players.If you find one she may not be around too long before someone else gets interested.
In my own situation I couldn't see going all the way back just to date.Also when you find someone it seems right with,after years of not finding that,wait is not a attractive option.As I posted before its like a man crawling accross the desert,getting to an oasis and having someone tell him it would be a good idea to wait to take a drink.Also I have and old issue with wait.It was my mother's solution for everything.As an adult I have tended to the opposite extreme.
So its really your choice.As I said before its very important that the woman feel the same as you.hopefully you are getting those vibes even though she is not commiting immediately.
One thing I stated when I got alot of flak for marrying quickly was it was for sure going to be more interesting than what I had been doing before that,which is certainly true.
I do think it can be a mistake to come off as needy or desperate to these women,even if they want what you offer.There is unfortunately still that old game of wanting what you can't have and not wanting what you can.A liitle doubt on their part if they can have you can be a good thing.I remember a girl I met many years ago.We were both
recently divorced.She said something about wanting what she couldn't have,me.I ruined that impression in about a week by being way too available.Actually that was my vulnerable and lonely stage,right after the divorce,not when going to Colombia.But hopefully these old games don't play quite the same in Colombia.

Good luck,keep us posted.

Pete

[lswote]

... in response to I didn't understand you had met her befo..., posted by Pete E on Oct 15, 2002

[This message has been edited by lswote]

Yes you are correct.  There were 2 girls I was interested in.  In fact that was the point of the original post, to tell how 1 girl showed her interest and influenced how I felt.  See there was one woman who reminded me of Martha who I will call R and there was another girl who I hadn't really considered my physical type when I first met her but who let me know she was interested in me.  Her name is Zulma.  I had dates with both of them on my trip 2 weeks ago and called both of them and emailed them during the time before my last trip.  I really wanted the relationship with R to work because the numbers all made sense, she was the physical type I usually pick, closer to my age, seemed more settled since she had kids.  Zulma is younger, no kids, and has a slighter less voluptuous figure than I usually like.  But the thing was R, while nicer to me than Martha had been while we dated, didn't seem particularly interested.  She missed phone dates.  She didn't return email.  Zulma on the other had, said she missed me when I didn't call her one day, sent me email and online greeting cards and let me know she was delighted when I called.  She even had a gift for me when I returned to Bogota.  She really started growing on me and I found myself thinking "If I move to a steady relationship with R I will have to give up my relationship with Zulma and I don't think I could do that".  I didn't want to accept that my relationship with R wasn't progressing because all the things I knew about her at the time said she would be such a better fit than Zulma so I tried to ignore my feelings for Zulma.

So when R stood me up on Friday night, it finally dawned on me that my assumption she was such a good fit was wrong.  And like Martha, I had chosen to look for things instead of see what was there.  And when I realized Zulma was giving me real attention, not what I projected she should be giving so I finally decided to stop fighting my feelings for her.  And when we finally went out on our dates on the last trip things went wonderful and in the impulse of the moment I proposed.

So see Pete, what you said about the girls showing interest made all the difference in how the relationships turned out.

[Pete E]

... in response to Thank you, posted by lswote on Oct 15, 2002

Bruce,
After several dates with my wife she seemed totally right for me and also such a very good person.I intended to take a few more days getting to know her and even get someone to translate while we talked over our expectations and desires about marriage.It was a Friday night.I intended to propose Sunday if all went well,I was scheduled to leave on Monday. I thought oh what the hell,I want to do this  and proposed that night, our fourth date.She accepted right away but seemed a little shocked by the whole thing.I thought whoops,I did that too fast,but didn't intend to back off of it.I extended my trip for us to have 9 more days together then went back in 6 weeks and married her.
It has not been perfect but my original impression was correct.She is as good a person as I could ever hope to find.
I hope it works out as well for you.

Pete

[Craig]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

If your not full of crap and your telling the real story don't apoligize. Remember your a 2% er. That's the number of people on this board who actually have the courage to travel to Colombia

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

iswote:

You wrote:
We talked to Nelson about a K1 visa and found that you don't have to actually have a commitment to marry to get one

Nelson's a good man and has helped me in the past.  However, whether this was his advice or not, I have to disagree.  The petition for K1 visa makes it clear that you not only have to have a commitment to marry but you both must declare the same in separate letters submitted with the petition.  To say otherwise here in public might jeapordize your application if the INS were to discover this.

There is no penalty if she comes to the US on a K1 visa with the intention to marry you and one of you changes your mind.  There could, however, be serious penalties if she came here without both of you commited to marry each other.

Steve

[El Diablo]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002


Hi Bruce,

You seem like a good guy from your posts and I truly have respect for you.  However I think you should ask yourself if the approach you are taking will have a positive and successful outcome.  I know that other guys have put the cart before the horse and been successful but it may be the exception rather than the rule IMO.  And to a large degree my criticism is not so much about the speed of your proposal but rather the psychology that is driving your decision making.  Tai really said it well when he suggested that your loneliness is not a good foundation to build a relationship.  

In a case like yours, I would not recommend getting into a serious relationship right away.  I think you should consider doing the very thing you lamented, that is dating a bunch of Colombian women over a period of time like a year or so.  Despite what some have said, there is nothing wrong with dating as long as you are honest in your intentions.  You appear to have the financial wherewithall to travel to Colombia frequently.  I would take advantage of this and use your dating experience to help build confidence and esteem so that instead of making decisions from more negative aspects of your character like loneliness,  you make decisions from strength.

El Diablo

[puckster]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by El Diablo on Oct 14, 2002

loneliness is the driving force to create union, hardly a negative.

[greg]

... in response to The point of my original post was lost, posted by lswote on Oct 14, 2002

You sound like a good Guy. I don't understand why your considering on possible marriage to someone that doesn't truely fit what your looking for in a Calena. Heard that there are countless available women in Colombia, so why should a Guy rush himself? Wouldn't it be more wise to take your time dating until You find that special Woman that meet what your looking for? I'm lonely and old, never married, but I am not gonna rush myself into a quick marriage with a foreigner. We should take our time, don't Rush. I think you should continue to meet other women, try visiting other agencies, go to Cali..God got something better for you, no need to settle for leftovers