Crab Mentality

[Bear]

I just can not stereotypye any body but I am having a real hard time not lumping all filipinos into one group.  I struggle to try to explain the evil way my wife is treated and I try to blame it on poverty and need but it still can't put all the pieces together to confirm it.

We have had some bad situations with Honey's family because of the phone I had installed in her house.  Family and neighbors just help themselves and make long distance calls and calls to cell phones and when asked to pay the response is "You can afford it" (meaning screw the American).  So I asked her to have the phone moved to her room.  Her father through a hissy-fit.  Said she was selfish and a "bad daughter".  We were not doing it to stop the immediate family but those taking advantage.  But still she is bad for not "allowing" them to take advantage of me.

Her mother even told a neighbor that she could use Honey's wedding dress and wedding shoes for her wedding (Gossshhh!!!).  The landlords daughter onws a sari-sari store and gets mad at Honey when she wants her change?!  Her mother gets mad at her because a neighbor lights their cooking stove with rubber (have you ever smelled burning rubber) and Honey complains about the bad smell.  Everyone is mad at her because she put her brother through the fire before she'd let me help him with his college expenses.  They act as if now she is married to an American all their needs and wants will be paid my me without question?

Honestly I think I have never seen such greed and evil attitudes but I can't believe so much of it is from her parents.  She pays the phone, water, electricity, her brothers college, her own expenses and occasionally gives them some money and she is considered "selfish"?  We even planned to purchase a house there and let her family live there.  They are even now badgering her about the pains and problems they had bringing her into the world and how she does not appreciate those problems they had doing it and she is not grateful.  Quote "even if she is chopped to pieces she could never re-pay them".  Yeah like she had a choice?  

I remember telling her after the wedding that realitives she did't know she had would be popping out of thin air asking for things.  I just didn't know that it would be her parents.  I had promised to help her family and did truly want to.  But that is changing fast.

I have suggested that she tell them that I have lost my job (not true) because I have a pinched nerve in my neck (true) and can't work.  But I haven't noticed that easing anything.  The increditably long time this immigration is taking forces her to have to live there and deal with it.  

Shoot, I even wanted her to be home more so she would be able to come here knowing I had given her every opportunity to be with her family before she came.  Now I want her to move out but she says that wll make everything worse (I don't know how).  It kills me to see her crying as they badger her when we chat.  

I'm ready to boil some crabs!!!

Bear

[Ray]

... in response to Crab Mentality, posted by Bear on Jun 28, 2001

Bear,

Get used to it! I discovered a long time ago that in the Filipino culture, if you have it, you’re expected to share it. To us it seems like pure greed, but to them it’s not such a big deal. Yes, some people over there are just greedy, but it’s not openly confronted like it is here. For the most part, they just accept it as part of life and don’t get all excited about it.

When someone asks for a favor or a loan (handout), it is not normally acceptable behavior to directly deny the request. Saying no can be extremely difficult, so they have developed their own method of saying no without actually saying no. No matter how outrageous or greedy the request may seem, you just smile and remain calm and polite. Then you make up some excuse why you can’t honor their request now and stall them off  (you were on the right track with the out-of-work excuse). When they ask again later, give another excuse and stall them off again. After a while, they will stop asking. They usually won’t openly criticize the person making the request or comment on the situation any further and peace prevails. It seems to work for them and is a lot less stressful than just saying “No Way! Why don’t you get off your ass and get a job?” If you try this method for a while, you’ll get used to it. It really does work.

Your wife is in a very stressful situation right now. Trying to honor your wishes and those of family and friends at the same time. My recommendation: just grit your teeth and smile and put up with it until she is out of there. It will be a lot easier for her to say “No” from 10,000 miles away than it is now.

About the telephone. If it’s there, she will be expected to share it without comment. If it’s not there, she won’t have to worry about it. So, it’s up to you. Is it worth it to have the phone in or not?

Hang in there Bear, it won’t be that much longer.

Ray

[katy]

... in response to Crab Mentality, posted by Bear on Jun 28, 2001

OK, first I want you to know that I totally sympathize with you! These people have NO IDEA what they're doing to you. Wealth is relative, and these people have never had to manage more than a meager amount of money at a time. To them, you are swimming in an endless ocean. They make me think of drowning people who will actually pull the lifeguard down with them in their panic. They don't know what they're doing.

Second, what I'm going to say does not reflect directly on you, but I do want to say it:

American men who seek wives abroad are able to take advantage of the poverty in other countries to find women who are grateful for the opportunity to marry American men. Be honest - nobody is flocking to meet up with women from Canada or Sweden. The parts of the world that are distorted and fraught with strife are the places where women are willing to leave everything for a chance to raise children in peace and security. They are willing to marry a man far older than them, often whom they only barely know, because they are desperate.

Even the misnomer "Mail Order Bride" implies the idea that such things are purchased. You, as the wealthy Western man, are in a position of power because you have the money. Other people - INCLUDING HER PI COMMUNITY - believe that you are purchasing a bride, so they're going to expect you to pay.

Remember - if these women did not come from desperately poor backgrounds, they would not be available to you.

I understand how frustrating it must be to be put upon by all of these distant relatives and neighbors. However, in their culture, extended family means something different than it does to us. You fiance is expected to share the bounty. YOU are expected to share the bounty. When you came a-courtin', you came with money, gizmos, and the offer of a better life. Her family simply expects it.

As for the neighbors, they probably do have a "crab mentality." They may well be jealous, and their way of getting revenge may be to take advantage.

Try to be patient. Accept that she will be taken advantage of by local merchants. As for the phone, perhaps you could get her a cell phone or a calling card, and let the phone lapse, or only pay basic service. If it gets disconnected, then it will be up to them to deal with it.

Nobody likes to be taken advantage of, so I feel for you. Unfortunately, your fiance's friends and comunity feel that they are entitled to what they are taking.

Hold on - she'll be with you soon!

[Cecil]

... in response to My completely unsolicited opinion, posted by katy on Jun 28, 2001

Katy,

I must completely agree with your message.  The simple truth is that the minority of wealthier filipinos rarely ever seek a foreign husband through the pen pal route.  Those professional ladies such as nurse seek an american becoz they know that there are high paying jobs in the U.S.  The truth is that wealthier filipinos many times look down on those ladies who seek a foreign husband.  With all respect, I totally disagree with Jeff on the age difference issue.  How many filipino couples living in the Phils have a 20 year old lady married to a 45 year old man?  I think the answer is very few.  Those people who sell addresses and tours want you to think that filipinas prefer these huge age differences so that the men won't feel guilty.  We have heard all of the excuses.  We are told that there are not enough men in the Phils for all the ladies.  We are told that young filipino men beat their wives and cheat on them so the women want older men who are more reliable.  Please do not misunderstand me.  I am not saying that these ladies are not in love with these men.  But as my uncle once told me It is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man than a poor one.  If we think that the poverty and political uncertainty in the Phils is not a major factor in pen pal writing we are deluding ourselves.

Cecil

[Jeff S]

... in response to My completely unsolicited opinion, posted by katy on Jun 28, 2001

You brought up some good points, but don't, for a minute, believe that only people who are desperately poor and fraught with strife are willing to marry American men - we aren't saving women from refugeehood in a war zone. Quite a number of foreign brides come from pretty well to do families in various parts of the world, and believe it or not, it's quite common for foreign brides to not want to come to the US. They do it more because they have to, to be with the ones they love, than because they're desperate to bail out of the poverty and strife of a foreign land.

Many have higher educations and leave good paying jobs where they have a pretty good lifestyle to brave out to the unknown leaving friends and family behind to a place where their education's are considered worthless, their native language foreign to the locals, and their career prospects practically nil. Believe it or not they do this to be with teh men they love, not to bail out from a sinking native land.

As for age differences, you're saying that only desparate women are willing to "settle" for such a wide age disparity. It's obvious you're looking at it from an American perspective, not from the reality out there in the world. I have a 30 year old Mexican woman working for me who is married to a 55 year old Mexican husband. They were married in Mexico for ove 10 years before emigrating to the US with their two kids. It's common there. Do 25 year old Filipinas, Colonmians, and Russians marry 45 year old people from their OWN country? YES, they do. In the middle east the perfect age for a wife is calcualted as 1/2 the husband's age plus 7 years. For a 44 year old man, that's 22+7=29 That's NORMAL there.

Your implication that we're not lining up to find women women from Canada or Sweden is true but not because they come from wealthier countries and enjoy their homelands. It's because like American women, they either don't know, or don't care about the kinds of traditional families and married lifestyles we seek. My own wife's family is FAR wealthier than my own, and she's actually a couple years older than I, but she had an old fashioned attitude about marriage, raising children, and responsibility that I fear is often missing in many of today's young, liberal people from western countries. BTW, my wife is from Japan, the #2 economy in the world, behind the US.

Just some thoughts, I think you should consider.

- Jeff S.

[kevin]

... in response to Re: My completely unsolicited opinion, posted by Jeff S on Jun 28, 2001

I think availability of partners has alot to do with where men look too.  In the developed world, there are relatively few women relative to the number of men.  This rings a bell about birth control, and its impact on birth rates, which I think is worth discussing.

- Kevin

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: My completely unsolicited opinio..., posted by kevin on Jun 28, 2001

That's true, too. Another contribuiting factor is sheer experience. Wherever there are GIs overseas, there tend to be lots of foreign/American marriages. I meet lots of late 60s and 70something Japanese/American couples in the local Japanese grocery stores, resturaunts, etc, that I assume were from the McArthur occupation era when many American GIs were stationed there. There have been a heavy American presence in the Philippines for a long, long time too. Often times people see how nice the ex Navy guy down he street and his Filipina wife get along, they want one too. Not too many US bases in Sweden, but I know a number of people with German wives (from being stationed there during the cold war)

Another thing that affects foreign women's willingness to hook up with an American is the way the local men treat them. While there are many loyal husbands and good fathers in Latin America, there's a component of men with the machismo attitude. Lots of Asian men have spent centuries with concubines, mistresses, and outside girlfriends while their wives stay home and take care of the homes and families, too. Face it, we American men are seen as catches by many women in the world who are accustomed to abusive, domineering, often drunken partners. We're perceived as loyal, affectionate and having a strong instinct to take care of our wives, grant them freedom, and bring them in as equal partners in our unions.
-- Jeff S

[katy]

... in response to My completely unsolicited opinion, posted by katy on Jun 28, 2001

I modified it to make sure you knew that I KNOW you are not purchasing a wife - I was only talking about how it appears to other people.

And, I said that I know your motives are pure, so you'll just have to weather the storm and have faith that all will end well.

Best of luck to you!

[Dave H2O]

... in response to Crab Mentality, posted by Bear on Jun 28, 2001

Hi Bear,

Respect for your parents is a great thing. Having parents take advantage of their children is not good. It seems that many Filipino parents use guilt to get what they want from their children. Not that parents don't do that in America, but this is extreme. Some send kids to Saudi, Japan, or Angeles to work. Some force them to marry for money. Most have their children so well trained that they do this on their own, out of a sense of guilt and obligation. Poverty is a terrible thing, but even in the PI, most people create much of their suffering themselves. I have seen people who were taught how to fish, prefer to sit on the shore, drink beer and let others fish for them, be it their children or relatives.

I really enjoyed the quote, "Even if she is chopped to pieces she could never re-pay them". Talk about laying on the guilt trip!

This is not meant for Honey's father, since I know nothing about him and I know she loves her family very much. This is meant for the attitude of many fathers I have observed and heard about.

How about, "Father, even if we chopped your balls off, you could never repay us. One night you came home drunk and enjoyed sex with our mother. You did this many times until you had more kids than you could feed or care for. Even if we chopped you up and ate you, you could never repay us for the life of hunger and poverty you created for us. You will be lucky if I don't forget all about you in my new life in America."

Dave H.

[Carrisse]

... in response to Guilty Mentality, posted by Dave H2O on Jun 28, 2001

Most who went to work abroad do it on their own to help their parents and out of love and a sense of obligation to repay their parents who worked their butts off to put their children to college.

It is the norm and it is part of our culture.  Please don't think that most parents take advantage of their children. Some parents do.  My brother went to Singapore out of his own decision to help the family.  My Mom and Dad begged him and even threatened him not to.  He went anyway.  He tried to send money but my Dad told him to save it for his future family.  We never ask him for money but he would send them as gifts or pabaon.

Although you are right about poverty being the end result of some Pinoys doing--it is not always the case.  A corrupt society begets poverty. And corruption is rampant in the PI--from the upper echelon to the very lowest.  It is almost a way of life.  Would you really blame them and them alone? And some Kanos are also to blame--going there and buying expensive gifts for their Mahals--what are you trying to show those who are looking?  Think about it.  How many times do I have to say that first impressions always last.  If their impression is that you are rich and have a bottomless pocket--then you bet you will get taken advantage of.  Kanos who go there can make a difference by telling these girls that you are not there to play Santa.  That you are not buying her love.  And that you are not going to take care of her family for her.  It would make it easier for you and your Mahal to say no now than later.

Carrisse

*Off my soap box now, that was fun. (ooops, stepped on a rotten tomato)*

[Stephen]

... in response to Guilty Mentality, posted by Dave H2O on Jun 28, 2001

DAVE:

Father, even if we chopped your balls off, you could never repay us.

STEPHEN:

You have such a way with words.  I wish I had your talent.  You're a real wordsmith!

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Guilty Mentality, posted by Stephen on Jun 28, 2001

:-)

[Don J]

... in response to Guilty Mentality, posted by Dave H2O on Jun 28, 2001

WOW.......... Wouldn't that quote go over well? Sad but true in many cases in the RP, I think guy's who go over for the first time should make up cards with that message to send home to the Daddies of the kids begging in the street corners.

Don J

[Don J]

... in response to Crab Mentality, posted by Bear on Jun 28, 2001

Oh.... the phone in the house syndrome, I have a little experience with this issue. Although my wife lived and worked in Cebu City her parents live 6 hours away by bus in the province. We tried the cell phone thing but her parents would either forget to turn it on or overcharge the batteries so we would have to pay to repair it. The land line seemed to be the best solution, the only land line in their province and word traveled fast. After the first few months of being here suddenly my wife could not get through on the line, after a little investigation it turns out they had exceeded the 2000P per month limit we had set on the phone with the phone company by about 9000P. It was agreed that the phone would be used for emergencies and for her parents to call into town to have visitors from the city bring the necessary supplies and medications that where hard or expensive to acquire in the province.

It turned out the phone was being used more so for a sister to run a cosmetics business, (she used more than she ever sold) and a telecommunication center for everyone in the province. My solution, leave it disconnected until payment was received by the violators. I was impressed on how quickly the guilty parties were discovered and how suddenly the phone reverted back to it's original intended purpose. Cutting off communication was the hardest on my wife but the problem has since been eradicated. I witnessed the new phone procedure on our trip this last January, now if a friend or family member wants to talk their family abroad they prearrange a time to call the province and or they pay to use the phone.

In defense of her parents, her father before a career ending motorbike accident that left him partially paralyzed and unable to speak well, at one time did quite well for himself and his family. They would often help others in the province (mainly widowed or aging family members) with food, and expenses to help them survive. My wife who was an accountant in the city would give all that she had to help her family after her expenses and spend little or no money on herself (Birds of a feather and all that). I mentioned before on this board how I was nearly reduced to tears on my first visit to see my wife in Cebu and her reaction to my bringing her some gifts from the US, her first pair of Rebok shoes and Levi jeans along with a few other clothes delighted her like a kid in a candy store. She kept the shoes in the box and would rarely wear them outside of the house because she was so proud to have them and did not want others to feel bad that they could not afford the same.

In many cases the greed issue certainly may be the problem in the Philippines, however sometimes it's a matter of goodhearted behavior to those less fortunate. I emphasize to my wife that she needs to tell her parents that and family to keep a low profile on the (My Daughter Is Married To A Kano) if not only to protect them from people praying on them or perhaps kidnapping a family member. We have a set amount of money we send each month to a cousin who I would trust with my life, she is as trustworthy as they come and I don't know what we would do without her. Even my wife says she has no one else she would trust in the city with taking care of the finances.

Guy's, don't be so quick to make promises of financial support to the family, buying houses and the like. I'm not saying you should not help them, just don't make it a condition of marriage. Explain how life here in the states is very expensive and how you would like to be able to help in case of family emergencies. If their acceptance of you comes with a condition of support you could be in for a bad time.

Just my opinion!
Don J

[Jimbo]

... in response to Crab Mentality, posted by Bear on Jun 28, 2001

Hi Bear,

I've found that when we help Sally's family, they will ask for more and keep pushing until they really hear the message "tama na!"  A few months later they start up again - we help, and draw the line again.  This will probably go on forever, but I don't mind helping them as long as they know when to stop the pestering and give her relief from the guilt trip.  I can see the effects of the stress it causes her and that's what bothers me.  The Filipino culture deep within won't allow her peace of mind if she just ignores them.

In my case, Sally is capable of being firm or even forceful with them, but she's hesitant to do it without an ally who agrees that it's the right thing to do.  She decides how much is too much, seeks my support, and takes action.  She voices the same concern that I have:  too much help and they'll become dependent and less motivated to work.  Also, she has a job now and doesn't need me to remind her how hard she works for the money; getting to work at 6:00a slaving over hot coffee all morning and putting up with the not-so-infrequent rude customer.

We had the same phone problem.  Her family couldn't say no to the neighbors making calls, to anywhere.  Sally drew the line when the bill went over P3000.  That was it, the phone came out.  She had warned them twice before to get control of it, so this bill became strike three.

Jim