Why is it every time I post something...

[Alteno]

...about Mexico or my do-it-yourself succesful methods for searching, I am harrased by the same guys who try to bait me into a Mexico vs. Colombia argument. They make in-my-face statements and deride all that I have done, all the while showing their inherant ignorance about Mexico and Mexicana´s.

Could it be that there are posters here who are operating under the guise of being just another agency user, when in fact there may be more to it than that. Perhaps agencies use certain methods, even infiltrating this forum, to promote their use. Nothing would suprise me, but there seems to be a pattern here.

Any comments or thoughts? No more flames, please, as I don´t play that way anymore...

Happy in Mexico

[Patrick]

... in response to Why is it every time I post something..., posted by Alteno on Jul 4, 2002

I think part of the problem may be that some read in an elitist attitude into your posts.  It's easy to see why when you post about fair haired, green/blue eyed people.  Perhaps some are assuming that you believe these people to be better than the darker skinned people of Mexico.

The comment about agency owners infiltrating the board is IMHO not very realistic.  We've had quite a few over the years and the most common is simply an advertisement-like post.  "Come to our site and meet beautiful women.  www.mysite.com."  Occassionaly there's the "testimonial" in which someone new starts posting glowing reports about an agency from the start.  Both are pretty obvious.  To come in here and work at convincing men that using agencies is better than do-it-yourself methods would be a very poor return on invested time when the agency operator is only one of the many available to use.  It just wouldn't be worth the effort and time expended.

Searching for a wife in a foreign country without the use of an agency is a viable method, but I think it almost requires that the man speak Spanish fairly well.  In fact, I doubt I would use an agency if I were currently searching.  I would most likely pick an area where there's no agency presense and place my own advertisments in a newspaper (in Spanish).  Few men are in a situation where they can move to a foreign country and attend a university like you did, and few are good enough in Spanish to operate well in a Latin country.  For those reasons, most guys specifically searching for a Latin wife do use agencies.  You've pointed out correctly in the past that most marriages between American men and foreign women do not take place with the use of an agency, but I suspect that numbers would be reversed when you limit the men to those living in the US who decide for whatever reason to look for a Latin wife.  Men living and working abroad who just happen to meet women where they live are most likely always going to far outnumber men living in the US who decide to look outside their country for a wife.

[Rick Johnson]

... in response to Re: Why is it every time I post somethin..., posted by Patrick on Jul 5, 2002

It does seem that Alteno comes across as elitist. To a lesser extent, Jeff S. also appears this way. Read through some of the prior posts. References to class are very obvious. Classism runs counter to the American and democratic ideal. Women, (people) should be judged on their merits not some artificial class distinction. Don't let these false class distinctions stop any of you guys from falling in love with the woman of your dreams when you find her and wherever you find her.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Why is it every time I post some..., posted by Rick Johnson on Jul 5, 2002

Elitist? Let me begin by saying that I have absolutely no interest or care about a person's social class from a family birthright viewpoint. That being said, though, there are lifestyle considerations that everyomg interested in finding a foreign bride should be aware. As I've said a number of times on this board, I have nearly 50 Latinas working for me at any given time - over 150 in the last 5 years. Some are educated, capable, and adaptable to modern American life, while others are illiterate, do not know how to eat with a fork, and are totally out of place here in the states outside their tightly knit communities. Believe it or not, I've actually had to install a digital clock in my shop because some of the girls could not read the analog one to write down time on their job sheets. I'm not saying these are low class people, in fact many are sweet, hardworking, faithful to their husbands, pious, and genuinely wonderful human beings. What I AM saying, is that for me, a girl like this would not fit my lifestyle. It would be too much of a project to get her up to speed on my normal, everyday activities.  Here's what I wrote about it about a year ago:

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/show.php?asian/archive00064/messages/23409.txt

False class distinction may "run counter to the American and democratic ideal" but they're here among us nonetheless. How many Manhattan socialites go to trailer parks in Tennessee to find their mates? Know of any happy Arkansas chicken farmers with ex Chicago attorney wives?  I'm not talking about birthright here, only lifestyle. And yes, there are classless a-holes born to rich families in Manhattan, and that there are plenty of high class people born in Tennessee. What they do with their lives is far more important to me than from what family  they were born. Hey, this isn't about voting rights here - it's about two people being compatable, falling in love and creating a mutually satisfying life together.

If it's elitist that I wanted to marry someone who understood art, music, and had an international perspective, an awareness of business, a sense of fashion and decoration, someone who knew dining etiquette, what to do and not to do in social settings, and other social graces, then I guess I'm elitist.That's the kind of person I wanted to marry and that's the kind I found.  If you want someone to feed the chickens and can wax beans, I say fine - that's your lifestyle - more power to you. Look at Mck, who was interested in finding a metaphysically oriented, stoner hippy chick, to go along with his lifestyle - and found it. As I said in my post reference above, there's someone for everyone's taste, just be aware that taking a sophisticated Bogota girl to the backwoods and expect her to milk the cows is just as nuts as taking a country bumbkin girl from a dirt floored hut in Chiapas and expecting her to know how to act at a country club dinner.

-- Jeff S.

[FredFresno]

... in response to Re: Re: Why is it every time I post some..., posted by Rick Johnson on Jul 5, 2002

You're right, the US is supposed to be a meritocracy, and sometimes we approach that idea.  I do think that it's important that a couple be on the same page with respect to values and important life goals.  If a guy values learning, education, and culture, then obviously he should look for a woman who values the same thing.  Unfortunately, these values are more often instilled in middle- and upper-middle class households than in poor ones.  Obviously, there are exceptions.  

It does seem to me that this board, and others such forums, often get too hung up on where to search and search profiles.  This includes issues of which country, which city, what socio-economic class, what age, children v. no children, and how much English she should speak before coming here.  That's all well and good to begin with, but, through rational or irrational means, for most of us our search will eventually narrow down to one woman.  And, in some respects, that's where the real work begins.

If you're bringing your lady here on a K-1 or spousal visa you're like a pilot taking off from from an aircraft carrier.  You don't have the luxury of a long take-off, and as soon as you run out of deck you fly or sink.  That's true even if your lady has a tourist visa, as mine does.  Randy and Gloria were each able to get to know the other living on their home turf for an extended period of time.  Compared to the adjustment pains and isolation of Latina brides that you read of on these forums, there is much to be said for that that.  Randy says he can always drop out of the rat race and come back where he left off.  Lucky him.  For me, I don't see it that way.  You choose your own risks, but it's better to go in with your eyes open.  In that regard, Randy's posts and perspectives are very valuable here.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Why is it every time I post somethin..., posted by Patrick on Jul 5, 2002

... on the Asian Board about how the married and engaged guys met their mates. The results were interesting. About 50% were introduced by friends and family, about 25% met by accident when the man was traveling in the foreign country, and about 25% went about it by buying addresses, writing letters then visiting. This means 3/4 of all meetings were not agency related. I'll bet numbers in truth are actually much higher since many people who meet someone while on vacation, get introduced by a neighbor or friend, etc, don't necessarily frequent these boards, just go it alone. I'll bet the same is true for Americans meeting and marrying Latinas. Anyway. I do believe that there are lots of avenues outside agencies. Getting connected with the community is one way. Back in my single days, I was hooked up with the local Romanian, Ediga (Caucasus area) and Spanish communities through friends and attended some social functions. I got quite a number of offers to meet neices, sisters, cousins, etc. back home in addition to learning quite a bit about the food, traditions, holidays, culture, and language of the countries. I met my own wife through a friend's wife, also from her country. When she found out I was interested in the culture, could manage some of the language, and like the food, she introduced me to several of her friends back home. My wife was the second one who she set me up with.

-- Jeff S.

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Why is it every time I post somethin..., posted by Patrick on Jul 5, 2002

I'd suggest responding to Nico and Jebster (both responded to your posts below with questions) with advice on how to go about meeting women from your area.  That would go a long way towards changing the perception some guys seem to have of you.  In addition to claiming women from your area are great and that going sans agency is a good way to go, provide some useful information to the guys on how to actually meet the women in your area.

[FredFresno]

... in response to Why is it every time I post something..., posted by Alteno on Jul 4, 2002

Since you ask... you preface your observations of Arandas and Jalisco by talking about stereotypes of Mexicans in the US.  You do say they're stereotypes, but then you say "Mexicans don't assimilate."  I don't know what the prevalence was in Oregon, but in the rural Fresno County town where I live it's 70% Mexican/Mexican-American, and where I work it's 95%.  Things are more complex here than the picture you present, but generally it's not so much lack of assimilation, but a "standing wave" of immigrants do to a schizophrenic immigration policy formed by nativists who want the door shut tight and the cheap labor faction, who encourage folks to come in through the windows.  

It seems to me that you have been, in times past, thin-skinned about negative stereotypes about rural US residents (presumably Anglos in particular), you should understand why some might be thin-skinned about this.  Here the largest ethnic component after the Mexicans is the Okies, the descendent of the dustbowl crowd.  Many of the stereotypes about the Mexicans pertain equally to the Oakies (e.g., hard-working but not particularly ambitious, often indifferent to education, etc.)  Like any stereotype, these are exagerations built around a germ of truth.

By the way, in the last 15 years you and Juan are the only ones I've heard use the term "Chicano" much.  I sure don't hear it much around here.

[Pete E]

... in response to Mexicans, Chicanos, assimilation, etc, posted by FredFresno on Jul 5, 2002

Your discription of our immigration policy,the door shut tight and the window open.I love it.That about sums up our stated rules plus the reality of the situation.
I personally have alot of respect for those coming in "through the windows".They are looking for a better life.You can't blame them for that.I have 2 friends with businesses who's employees are primarily Mexican.They both say you have to hire the immigrants,the second generation and beyond are  not the same at all.

Pete

[FredFresno]

... in response to Mexicans, Chicanos, assimilation, etc, posted by FredFresno on Jul 5, 2002

If you want to provide more light while providing fewer sparks, two suggestions:

1)  Just give your observations of what it's like being a gringo expat married to a local in Arandas.  Don’t bring US Mexicanas into it.  Don’t bash agencies; just say that’s not the route you took, and offer to expand on your advice offline if, in fact, you are willing to do so.  Some of us who as a matter of fate have already committed elsewhere are still interested in “boring details” of expat life.  Are you the only estadounidense there?  Was this your first 4th of July there?  What’s that like?  What was in like for you there when the US and Mexico played in the World Cup?  Are these girls who are whistling at you (presumably young things) tuteando with you when not practicing English, or are you “Don Randy?”

2)  Don’t respond to anything past the third indentation level.  The remarks about “where’s the agencies?” “show me the photos of babes”, and “I like morenas/you’re racist”... just let it go.  Think “Ciego, sordomudo”.

[Nico]

... in response to Why is it every time I post something..., posted by Alteno on Jul 4, 2002

Alteno, What are your do-it-yourself sucessful methods of searching in Jalisco? I speak spanish by the way. I have have been thinking of going there to try and meet someone.

[robbysanjuan]

... in response to Why is it every time I post something..., posted by Alteno on Jul 4, 2002

Your post are great, first hand experience from someone who really knows. You have the same group of clowns here that jump all over everyone. Look at the clown who called me a racist, he is another "expert", but does not even understand spanish. Calivet and his gang are just sad. I have been to Mexico teice, not searching, and was stunned by the beauty of the women. Keep your info coming!

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Why is it every time I post somethin..., posted by robbysanjuan on Jul 4, 2002

From my point of view, which I believe is fairly unbiased, I'd say your being called racist is about as accurate as your portrayal of Calivet as having attacked Junfan.  I think both were over-reactions and from what I read, neither seemed to be what they were called.  I think people read in a little between the lines in messages and assume things about a post that were not intended.  The written word does not convey nearly as much information as speech, where we can hear the tone of voice and read body language at the same time we process the actual words.  It's easy to assume something that was not intended when reading a message.