Attempt on Presidential Candidate

[pack]

... in response to Re: Re: HUH?Long drug argument., posted by Wayne on Apr 15, 2002

juan..put the bong down come up for air.

[Hoda]

... in response to Attempt on Presidential Candidate, posted by Cali vet on Apr 14, 2002

I guess FARC has some fears/concerns about Alvaro! Colombia needs to beef up it's internal intelligence & pay the regulars A REAL SALARY for risking their lives (if you pay them, they will come...lol). Alvaro should be scared & very pissed himself! Since he's gonna be the next president, he needs to start his own offensive, YESTERDAY!!! FARC knows they need to keep their narra azzes in the bush. Head to head confrontation w/the regulars would be stupid on FARC's part. It seems like they've learned their lessons well from the IRA guys that got busted. The IRA guys claim, they were in Colombia to observe the peace process.....YEAH RIGHT!?!!

[pack]

... in response to Schwartzkoff would be better....LOL!!!, posted by Hoda on Apr 14, 2002

colombia always been dangerous..but getting worse by the day.

[Pete E]

... in response to Schwartzkoff would be better....LOL!!!, posted by Hoda on Apr 14, 2002

Howard,
Problem is Pastrana is still in charge of the country.I think the election is in May.I'm not sure how soon after that the new president takes office.Sounds like Uribe will win,so if the FARC don't kill him they are really p---ing him off.
I think he has the resolve to take care of them.Hopefully the country has the guts to really back him.The Chamberlin like appeasement of Pastrana didn't work at all.A country of 40,000,000 people can surely wipe out 20,000 or so rebels if they have the will.What in the H--- does it take to get them worked up to do it?If they don't take care of the FARC they deserve what they are getting.Something like 97% of the people oppose the FARC.Where have the leaders been?Do they think they can just stick their head in the sand and it will all go away?
Hopefully Uribe is the Solution.It looks like FARC is afraid he might be.
Way overdue for some serious a-- kicking down there.

Pete

[Hoda]

... in response to Re: Schwartzkoff would be better....LOL!..., posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2002

I've wondered many times myself, when will a country of 40 mil get really worked up. Not being Colombian & only having recently getting into what makes this country tick, I'll take somewhat of a back seat. But DAYYUM this "such is life" attitude when ones major religious & political leaders are being assasinated & kidnapped, should have the populas pitching a major b*tch. Let a group of 20k tries some s*** like that here.

I still say the U.S. needs to change the rules of engagement for the Colombian forces. Just to add to the thread, more people have died in our country from the drugs being produced in Colombia, than all the terrorist attacks we've endured. We need to take the profit out of drug distribution. Drive up the cost 5 to 10 times it's current value & let's see much hits the streets. It's too cheap for FARC/ELN & AUC to grow this *$$t that hits our streets. Take the profit out...Period!!!

'bout time SOMEBODY put some fear into FARC...

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be better......., posted by Hoda on Apr 14, 2002

Howard,
I agree with the spirit of your post,but question if the part about driving up the price of drugs 5 or 10 times and taking the profit out of them would work.I'm all for this but when the price goes up the profit usually goes up.If we drive drugs out of Colombia the demand will be filled from somewhere else.When we have thousands of cargo containers coming in to this country every day and only 1% inspected I think its fairly hopeless to cut off supply.I think we need to work on demand.
Admittedly my post above about decriminalizing drugs isn't about to happen soon,so maybe there are other things we can do here to decrease demand.I'm afraid we will just fill some more prisons though.
About Colombia,drugs and terrorism are tied together so I think we have to eliminate both.As Wayne posted its hard to identify the FARC sometimes.But you can go after the leadership.They control large parts of the country.Take it away from them and their influence will diminish.
When Bill Bennet was drug Czar he wanted to bomb the drug production factories in Colombia.He said we knew where they were and they could be gone by tommorow morning.He was opposed by other's in the federal government.He wouldn't say who they were but he said they were prominent and still there.Now this is tough and we would need Colombia's approval.And of course they could start other  production plants elsewhere,but it would really slow them down.
If Colombia gets up the guts to tackle this big time we should help with money,military equipment and advisors,AND AIR SUPPORT!INTRODUCE FARC TO DAISY CUTTERS!We don't need to send troops.People they got lots of.And I think we should stop trying to poisen the drugs.This causes too many other problems and is very damaging to even the farmers who grow legit crops.Seems like a CS Bill Clinton type idea.
Even though the FARC and drug dealers are small in number they are big in power because they have the money to bribe people to really undercut the process.Colombia needs to face dealing with corruption within their police and army also.With a big sustained push hitting all elements the money and their power could dry up.Also go after their money any way we can.Maybe Colombia can seize some of their money to help pay for the process.
I didn't realize having a Colombian wife would get me so interested in their politics,but I can't help it watching what is going on.

Pete

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be better..., posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

Pete,

My wife said something really funny the other day.  She said that when the US helicopters and planes came in to spray the defoliants on the coca plants, they grew larger and healthier.  She firmly believes that the US puposely fertilizes the plants in the name of trying to kill them.  She lived in the country and saw this with her own eyes.

Many of her relatives have worked in the cocaine manufacturing plants when they needed work and money.  She says it's a normal thing to be employed by the drug lords.  She says they take pretty good care of their employees like any other industry.  Escobar used to feed entire towns, and she said that the drug lords really weren't that violent until Escobar was killed and the guerillas came in and occupied the power vaccuem.  Escobar is somewhat of a folk hero in Colombia countrysides.

She also says that there is not much drug abuse in Colombia even though the drugs are really cheap.  The Govt. education program against drug use for young people is very effective she says.  Drugs are something that the Americans do, and it's just business to the Colombians.

Maybe we could get the Colombians to teach us a little about their anti drug education programs...LOL

Something really screwy is going on with our involvement down there.  She believes the US Govt is in bed with the drug lords, and that is why we never see any real change.

It always comes down to money.  Much of the Viet Nam war was propagated by the large defense companies wanting to sell products, and influencing Govt. officials by large under the table payouts.

It's hard to argue with someone who has seen these things with their own eyes.

Wayne

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be be..., posted by Wayne on Apr 15, 2002

Wayne,
You bring up the biggest argument against the Bill Bennett plan for drug production in Colombia.Are the drug lords going to be taken out with the facility?No,not unless they just happen to be there for a monthly inspection.But many common people who are just working for the drug dealers will be killed.I really don't blame farmers who grow cocaine.Its just a crop to them.Or people who work in the production facility.They need money to survive.I used to joke that Juan Valdez got smart and he is not picking those coffee beans one at a time anymore.
And I can see how someone like Escobar caould be a hero to them.Someone who is helping them.Are they worried some kid in New York might abuse use the drug?I don't think so.
Its also interesting the point you make about drug use in Colombia.It doesn't seem to be much of a problem,but it is quite common I think.When I was in Colombia in December a couple of guys walked by my in laws house,My brother in law said they were smoking crack,but they didn't seem to be causing a problem.A Colombian well know to many on this board died a sudden death at an early age a few months ago.I was told he was a heavy cocaine user.Maybe the US making it illegal is the biggest part of the problem.Colombian use seems to support this idea.Jimmy Carter said the punishment for drug use should not be the worse than any harm the drug might do.One of thr few things I remember he got right.
About your wifes idea that the US government is in bed with the drug lords,I must respectfully say total nonsense.I see where she might get such an idea and I wonder if such conspiracy type thinking is prevelent in Colombia.When you make the truth your enemy you lose,and I think this is no way the truth.Such fantasies just get in the way of making the proper judgements.I doubt there is even alot of bribery of US officials but I bet it is big with the Colombians.The Us guys have too much to lose,they got it good already.
Being close to the situation and seeing the big picture are two different things.Sounds like she doesn't yet have a good idea what the type of government we have in the US is all about.I can understand that,its much different in latin america.We have a free and aggresive press.Any such huge conspiracy would be too easily discovered.There are hundreds of knowlegable politican analists who would be all over it.Plus it just doesn't make sense,it goes against every thing we are trying to do.To believe this is to belive in such a huge cospiracy/misimformation manipulation that there would be nothing left you could believe.
Reminds me of JFK conspiracies and sightings of Elvis,but I don't want to offend your wife,she sounds like a good person.

Pete

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would b..., posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

Pete,

No, no offence taken.

Her opinion is interesting I believe because it is from a totally different perspective...  How much of the conspiracy theory is true, I don't really know.

She has been through alot, and maybe I'll tell you more in private some time.

Wayne

[pack]

... in response to Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be better......., posted by Hoda on Apr 14, 2002

take the farc out..period

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be better..., posted by pack on Apr 15, 2002

How do you suggest they determine who is Farc???  I understand that they change there clothes frequently, and are not easily singled out.  When the Govt. took that Farc held territory back, I heard that the Farc didn't even leave, they just changed clothes and assimilated.

It really is a bit like Viet Nam in some ways.  It's tough to tell who the enemy is.

Wayne

[pack]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be be..., posted by Wayne on Apr 15, 2002

same thing in Afgan..but its getting done slowly but surely.
ot to do something..gone on long enough
1. afgan
2.sadam
3. farc

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: Re: Schwartzkoff would be better......., posted by Hoda on Apr 14, 2002

My wife grew up in the country where the cocaine is produced.  She grew up among the guerillas and lost many family members over the years in attacks.  She has witnessed much, and has her own opinions about how things work from her 1st hand observation.

She believes there really is no drug war.  After what we have shown that we can do in Iraq, Afganistan and other trouble spots, finishing off  the Farc would be no problem.  She thinks the so-called drug war is merely a show, and she believe that members of our Govt. get a cut of the profits.  One time she watched American army transport helos flown my gringos set down hundreds of microwave ovens wrapped in plastic onto her uncles ranch land.  (They use microwaves to manufacture cocaine)  The guerillas then came in with trucks and picked them up.  One time her Uncle set fire to some drops by the Americans, and then he was later, kidnapped and killed.  Since she was 9 she has watched the land used for the coca plants expand and expand while the Americans fought hard against the drug war.  She also believes that propaganda over the years on how dangerous Colombia is, has been manufactured to scare Americans into not travelling to Colombia, and finding out what is really going on down there.

She believes that the US Govt. wants to keep Colombia as their own little drug manufacturing country.  There has to be this so called "war" to keep it looking acceptable on the surface.  She is a resilliant girl and I respect her opinions.  She used to do alot of volunteer work on the weekends with her uncle Isiaas sp?? (the Catholic Bishop who was assinated.)  Three specific times while she was in the car with him travelling to poor areas of Cali, assassins fired at their car and bullets flew around inside the car.  After she came to the states, she worried about her uncle daily and expected him to be killed.  She is more at ease now that he is at peace...

So that is her opinion.  Now for mine.

As long as Americans are stupid enough to sniff that crap, and there is money involved, the drugs will never be able to be stopped. Simple economics...huge demand.  I don't believe we have any business telling Colombia what they can grow, and what they can't.  It is a sovereign country with it's own laws.  I believe we should take all the money out of interdiction and put it into educating our young people.  Good marketing by the top teen idols of the US could swing the popularity contest against drugs.  Legal, illegal, it doesn't matter in my opinion, because the people who want to use drugs are going to use them.  Legalize it, take the crime out of it, provide treatment and education. Work on the problem at home and the abroad issues will take care of themselves.   Why not try something different, because what we have been doing is not working?  But...nothing is going to change because there is just too much money involved.  Alcohol kills people and drugs kill people, it's all the same to me.  Prohibition did not work, and the drug war isn't going to either.

On a more positive note, life gets better every day with my wonderful Latino wife.  She is one of the few areas in my life that has turned out far better then I ever could have expected.

Wayne

[Pete E]

... in response to There is no drug war., posted by Wayne on Apr 15, 2002

Wayne,
Its very interesting what your wife said about the american transports bringing in supplies to the drug dealers.Money can really corrupt the situation,possibly to the extent of paying US military pilots.But I don't believe for a miniute this is US government policy,official or otherwise.
I'm not big on the war on drugs in general,I think cutting demand is the solution,but in Colombia its tied to terrorism so we need to go after both.See my post above to HODA.
I disagree strongly with your wifes conclusions that the US wants to keep Colombia as are little drug production country.I think nothing could be farther from the truth,but I see how she might draw such conclusions from the US plane story.If Colombians are ever going to face this situation they need to know what the truth is.
About the FARC assimilating in to the population,yes that happens.I have a friend who lives in Popiyan and he says some are farmers by day and FARC by night.When Carlos Castana goes in and wipes them out he says the media report these farmers were killed.They were farmers and also FARC.Apparently there is a leftist media bias in Colombia just like here.This might be a major reason Colombians have not faced the issue.
If Colombia with US help ever seriously went after FARC these part time rebels would stick to their day jobs.FARC's numbers could drop 90% almost overnight.
But really we have to take away their money,and that means taking away their drugs.It won't solve the US drug problem but it could solve the Colombian drug/terrorism problem.

Pete

[JUAN]

... in response to There is no drug war., posted by Wayne on Apr 15, 2002

Great post by the way.

The US has no interest in ending the 'war on drugs', it would be a nightmare if they did.

Any idea why they would be trying to get into Colombia? there has to be something there.