Colombia, a class society

[bogota vet]

Sending US money into Colombia , big bucks at that.

Let me tell you from a person that has been ther for 4 years.
It is a class society.

Years ago the US ( and other countries) were a class society, tremendous sacrifices were made by all, transitioning into a equal
demcratic society.

The rich in Colombia don't care about the poor.

Let Carlos Gonzales or Juan Mendoza (fictous names!!) pay for the
change in THEIR COUNTRY, instead of buying a second home condo in Miami, sending thier kids to a nice private schools in NY, keeping large sums of money in Panama banks, etc...

The rich have yet to pay the price for the countyr they "love " so much.  
"Let them eat cake "

The mindset is : "you were born poor" , "I was born rich" , sothats is life.

[Pete E]

... in response to Colombia, a class society, posted by bogota vet on Mar 20, 2002

Yes Colombia is a class society,at least there is an upper class that controls much of the resources of the country.This is the argument for leftist polotics that ultimately lead to a dismall dead end as in Cuba.Also groups like FARC use this argument to recruit when in fact they have become bandits and drug dealers who more than 97% of Colombians oppose.
As Colombia moves in to the 21st century and ultimately decides to pay the price to rid themselves of these elements that are killing the economy and lifestyle of the country,they will evolve in to a more middle class society where accomplishment will become more important than birthright,as in the US.
A Marxist,communist society is not the answer,although it is appealing to people who think they do not have something because someone else does.Its been a dismall failure every where it has been tried.Democracy,free markets and personal initiative is the answer.Don't blame,create,don't tear down,build up.A system where effort is rewarded and the marketplace determines what should be produced beats a beauracratically controled economy every time.

Pete

[bogota vet]

... in response to Colombia, a class society, posted by bogota vet on Mar 20, 2002

The root problem isn't the drug trade, it could some othe product such as oil.  The problem is a class society just doesn't work anymore in the 21st century.

[Andean Condor]

... in response to Re: Colombia, a class society, posted by bogota vet on Mar 20, 2002

Bogota Vet,
Karl Marx would agree with you.  Societies stratified by class are bound to fail sooner or later-- The thesis/antithesis dialectic, internal contradictions, etc.
However, I'm interested in learning whether or not you view America as a class society as well?

-Andean Condor

[Pete E]

... in response to The world, a class society?, posted by Andean Condor on Mar 20, 2002

Contrary to the thinking of Karl Marx,the United States has evolved to a largely middle class society where accomplishment means more than birthright.And acccomplishment is available to all who seriously attempt it.How many people who arrived here penniless in the last 30 years are now wealthy and affluent?Millions.Off course if you don't believe this is possible or are stuck in a blame,ain't it awfull or victimology point of view you will waste the energy that could have created the accomplishment.I would liken this to having your head up your a--.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to The world, a class society?, posted by Andean Condor on Mar 20, 2002

Karl Marx,now there's a a deep thinker.Matter of fact thats about all he did,and most of his thoughts turned out to be dead wrong.Like there could never be such a thing as a middle class.His brilliant economic ideas brought poverty and bread lines to all who tried them,at  a huge cost in personal freedom and people murdered for the cause.Seems like there is only one old fool in the whole universe who hasn't figured this out yet.
Another case where a pull out of the sexual variety would have saved mankind alot of suffering.

Pete

[Andean Condor]

... in response to Re: Karl Marx???, posted by Pete E on Mar 21, 2002

Pete,
I assume that you're well versed in Marx... However, what you offer in terms of bread lines and the like is strictly a matter of someone's ideologic interpretation of Marx.  The man was a brilliant philosopher, it's a shame that you can dismiss him so easily without likely ever having read anything that he'd written...  Shame

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Karl Marx???, posted by Andean Condor on Mar 21, 2002

Reminds me about the joke about 3 guys stranded on an island.
There was a engineer,a physist and an economist.
All they had to eat were these cans of beans,but no can opener.
The engineer said lets bash the cans with a rock untill they open.The other guys said no,we will spill too many beans.
The physist says lets put the cans in a fire untill the heat makes them pop open.The other guys say no,they will explode and we will lose the beans.
The economist says first,lets assume a can opener.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Karl Marx???, posted by Andean Condor on Mar 21, 2002

Its true I haven't spent alot of time reading Marx.I don't like to waste time on things that have shown themselves by experience to be not only useless but counterproductive.I don't need to know alot of Marx,I can just look at what people who have taken on his ideas have produced.
I'm sure he was a brilliant guy.But brilliant does not mean realistic,as proven in this case.I think he saw a system that he thought was unfair,which it probably was and tried to come up with an alternative.The problem is it was all reaction and theory.What leftist thinking people  get stuck with is the idea that man hours = production = plenty for all.Motivated man hours,where a person can see the direct results of his efforts to himself,creates efforts and goals and even draws on a spiritual support that helps one in ones efforts.(Read Goethe on commitment).Contributing to a collective effort,where ones efforts are not rewarded and where those in charge make bad decisions not driven by supply and demand
waters down motivation to where little gets accomplished.Remember thase collective farms in Russia where the farmers were getting more results from their little personal gardens than from the big collective farm?Remember those Russian factories driven by production qoutas that produced only one size of shoe?
In theory,Marx's ideas can sound fair,paticularly to those who have nothing.In reality they don't work.Theory meets reality,theory loses.
But the other insidious thing about Marxist thinking is that the individual does really not count or matter.Its the collective good that takes precidence.Personal freedom is lost in the name of collective good.So its OK,even necceasary to take peoples personal freedom.This is not only a huge loss,but counterproductive,because almost all achievement comes from personal motivation.
This reminds me of a graduate student teaching assistant who gave us a speach in a US history class I was taking in college.He likened the "New Frontier"ideas of the Kennedy era to the settling of the west,where so much was accomplished in such a short time.Now we have this new society to create,like we settled the west.These people were going west for important and very personal reasons,and this gave them the strength to overcome adversity.Collective motivation would not have gotten them past the first river.
But its more than just motivation,its making the right decisions,which bearacratically controlled
governments have been a dismal failure at.
You don't believe me?Take a look at reality,to what the results of communist governments have been,then look at the United States we are so fortunate to live in.Does that evil capitalistic system produce more for its people?Every single time.
And a bread line is not an ideological interpretation,you have them or you don't.

Pete

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Karl Marx???, posted by Pete E on Mar 21, 2002

Though the discuss of politics is interesting topic.

My main point is when you read in the paper about the US debating in Congress to send money and how much to Colombia, think twice.  There are a hell of alot rich Colombians with more money then you and I and the working stiff in the US.  Alot of these Colombians have a few residences US  and Colombia, they flee instead of sacrificing the way our forefathers did in the US years ago.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Karl Marx???, posted by bogota vet on Mar 21, 2002

I believe You.But is Colombia going to take the rich peoples money to pay for the war?I don't think so.
I think the US needs to make the shift from thinking of Colombia as a drug problem to a terrorist problem.
Colombia needs to get the guts up to take on this issue untill it is resolved.I think we should help them with military equipment and training.Its in our own best interest as well as the Colombians.Colombia and other south and central american countries,our neighbors, need our help in creating strong economies and getting rid of terrorism and criminals.I think we should give it to them even if we can find some fault with their social higharchies.(spelling I know).

Pete

[BenKramer]

... in response to Re: I believe you, posted by Pete E on Mar 21, 2002

Hey Pete,
   I think we should give Colombia some help but the real problem is that we finance the rebels by and thru the drug trade. Until we call it quits on the war on drugs the rebs will still make money to keep the war going. I have said it  before and I will say it again, we cant win the war on drugs just like we could not win the war on alchohol during Prohibition. People will use drugs and alcohol reguardless of the laws. Of course the CIA needs its income so the black market for drugs will be around for awhile. Ben  

[Pete E]

... in response to Pete, I agree with you to a point, posted by BenKramer on Mar 21, 2002

Ben,
I agree except maybe for the comment about income for the CIA.I think we got lots of other things for them to be doing.
Yes,we are really screwing up Colombia with our demand for drugs.Even if we chase it out of Colombia it will just go to Ecuador or someplace else.
The solution,win the war,which I agree is not winable,or more realistically but not likely to happen any time soon,decriminalize drugs and become the provider,with  perhaps more control over who gets them,and much money coming in instead of going out,which could fund all kinds of education and treatment programs.It could even make a huge dent,possibly eliminate our balence of payment problems.All for trying to protect people from themselves and telling them how to live,and this in a country that talks so much about freedom.
Since the current administation thinks even marijuana is a big deal this isn't going to happen soon.
If you read any of my posts you might think I am a big Bush supporter.I am on most things.He is dead wrong and has a stupid policy on this one.

Pete

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Pete, I agree with you to a point, posted by Pete E on Mar 21, 2002

It's a sad reality, but drugs aren't going anywhere, not for a loooooong time.

There are the ethical/moral issues that will prevent any politician(with a desire to keep his job) from openly supporting the legalization of drugs, then there is the fact that drug money is a key fund for operations(CIA and others) that cannot get passed through the legal channels.

AND, there is the practical obstacle...as long as there are people desiring to escape their "problems", be they emotional or economical, and thus a demand for drugs, there will be drugs.

If not Colombia, then somewhere else...and the CIA will still be right there, with their hands in the middle of it.

just .02

-Tai

[markxport]

... in response to Pete, I agree with you to a point, posted by BenKramer on Mar 21, 2002

Sorry, but this subject drives me nuts.  Singapore has no drug problem!  Why?  Well when you fly into the country and fill out the immigration card, in big bold red letters it states "Drug trafficing is punishable by Death".  And they carry it out!!!  And its no lethal injection, its hanging!!!   Guess what, no drug problem....

I know  there is no political will in this country to do something like this.... but if there was, the drug problem would dry up pretty quickly, and the Colombians wouldn't have a motivation to harvest cocoa leaves....No drug money, no drug traders, no financing for the rebels, no rebels.....Yes, I know it's overly simplistic but it would work...and yes I know it will never happen.

Take care,

Mark