Cuba the next Colombia???

[Traveler]

... in response to Re: Traveler..US cultural impact is why ..., posted by NW Jim on Jun 23, 2001

economics is definitely a factor as is the social situation of these countries.  some of it has to do with hopping on the bandwagon.  a few agencies open in Colombia and then many more.  kind of reminds me of the microbeer craze in the US a few years back.  now, the market is saturated.  there is an agency presence in Honduras and the DR as well.

I do think that economics plays a rather large role:  thus my question about the agencies in Japan or Holland or even Chile.  

I just think that if Cuba opens up it will be the next "hotspot" for Americans and it will be quite overwhelming.  yes, there will be much economic development and tourism but the seedy side will come along with it.  

by the way, when this happens  other destinations like the DR and especially Puerto Rico are going to take a huge hit.

[Dennis in CA]

... in response to Dennis, if you agree with Jim that...., posted by Traveler on Jun 23, 2001

with you on the opportunity for foreign wives issue, actually those are good points you raised.  What I took exception to was your comment about the "negative US impact" on the Cuban culture.  You seem to imply that we are some sort of virus to be avoided at all costs; if I was wrong, forgive me.  I realize that in many parts of the globe it is fashionable to trash the US for just about everything, but it appears to me that the "corruption" that you are so fearful of may be a life-saving improvement to many hopeless souls living in Cuba.  The fact that I've never been there does not erase the terrible conditions which prevail there.  If we are culturally so corrupt, why are so many abroad desperate to come here?
While I love the Latin culture & all that it has to offer, I am an American, first, who is very proud of our culture.  And I doubt that any of those here who enjoy trashing our culture would be very eager to trade their US citizenship.
D

[FredFresno]

... in response to I do not disagree....., posted by Dennis in CA on Jun 23, 2001

Dennis, let me answer this since I am one who has sometimes criticized some aspects of US culture.  First, let me emphatically acknowledge that you are correct, that I would not live anywhere else in the world if it meant giving up US citizenship.  I am very proud of my heritage as a US citizen. Where I disagree with others is which aspects of US culture and history are just causes for pride.  Politically, we are a country of the rhetoric (and sometimes the accomplishments) of Jeffersonian enlightenment, and of the Machiavellian spirit displayed in our support of human rights abuses by right-wing dictatorships in Latin America during the cold war.  Culturally, we are a nation that has given rise to Herman Melville, Henry James, and William Faulkner, as well as to Stephen King and Danielle Steele.  I think that the Little Apple in Manhattan, Kansas is as good as US cuisine gets, but it's easier and more profitable to franchise McDonalds and KFC.  We are one of the more populous and diverse nations in the world, and certainly the wealthiest and most powerful.  We have much good to offer the rest of the world, and much bad.  There are, then, two problems.  The first and lesser is that we at home often don't agree as to which is the good and which is bad.  The second is that the bad is often a more popular and profitable export than the good.

As to Cuba, que sara sara (no, that was not attempted Spanish, it was attempted Latin a través de Doris Day).  Terrible conditions, of a different sort, also prevailed under Castro's predecessor, Batista.  Under Batista a handful of Cubans were as wealthy as anyone in the world and education and medical care was out of reach for most; under Castro education, medical care, and poverty are rationed more or less equeally and entrepreneurship is challenged and, when found, crushed.  Unfortunately Latin American tends to anti-democratic political extremes that justify the old joke, "the difference between communism and captilism is that, under one, man exploits man whereas under the other it's the other way around".  Personally, I believe that Mexico after the 1917 Constitution is the best model that Cubans could hope for in a post-Castro Cuba.

As for a Latina novia, I would imagine that California, Mexico and Colombia would be the three most logical places for me to look for a novia for the foreseeable future, however long that might be.

[Houndog]

... in response to Re: I do not disagree....., posted by FredFresno on Jun 23, 2001

**. We have much good to offer the rest of the world, and much bad. There are, then, two problems. The first and lesser is that we at home often don't agree as to which is the good and which is bad. The second is that the bad is often a more popular and profitable export than the good.**

I agree and the Crux of our situation going south is actually much the same as it would be at home. All women (and men) learn 'lesson's in life', "Which Lessons" one has learned in life is the true key. The good ones or the bad ones.

HD

[Traveler]

... in response to I do not disagree....., posted by Dennis in CA on Jun 23, 2001

yes Dennis, I said I was probably being selfish and that is probably the case.  living in Central America I often encountered  Americans who were anti-US and didn't like US development and contact because they thought that the people were becoming Americanized and losing the traditional culture.  It seems they,the TOURISTS, wanted to keep the culture in its traditional style so THEY could go and take pictures and have a REAL cultural experience.  I am all for the development of Cuba and the ouster of Castro but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind seeing it before this happens.  

I think the US economic invasion will have definitely benefits  on the standard of living but the seedy side will come along too.  I have seen it in the DR and Costa Rica.

I believe we both know the answer to question regarding if "we are so culturally corrupt then why are they desperate to come here"  which of course is economic reasons.  having a festive and social culture does not spare one from economic hardships that's for sure.  

yes, I like being an American too.  I like being an American and traveling to other countries. I always have an enjoyable experience.  I think I have made a good effort to learn about the local cultures and speak Spanish fluently but I have also seen enough tourists (not just US) who go to those countries for nothing else than the seedy side.  you have been to LA I'm sure, one thing that annoys me is constantly being pestered by shoe shine boys, prostitutes, and otheres that want me to by something.  they look at me like an ATM machine.  

[buzzy]

... in response to Re: I do not disagree....., posted by Traveler on Jun 23, 2001

Yea you're right their eyes mirror dollar signs when they see you in the street.  About gambling in Cuba does the mob run that?  If not they'll be there as soon as it's possible.  And you know it seems to me that the world is really getting smaller and smaller with all the tech communications.  The dividing line between cultures  has softened with global communications and travel.  I mean mexican food is my favorite!  And we celebrate Cinco de Mayo! But I'm Irish-American! Maybe when Cuba opens up that day will be annually celebrated with fiestas!

[bret]

... in response to Re: Re: I do not disagree....., posted by buzzy on Jun 23, 2001

i have never seen gambling of any kind in cuba, and i've been going there since 1994, from one end of the island to the other.

cuba HAS opened up, you just can't fly directly from the u.s.

[Dennis in CA]

... in response to Re: I do not disagree....., posted by Traveler on Jun 23, 2001

Malandro:
Your points are well taken with which I can agree with most.  I, too, disliked being viewed as a cash source when I visited Latin America.  However, what bothered me more was seeing 5 year olds begging on the streets at midnight, many times in full view of police.  In this regard, I believe that many of those that wish to immigrate to this country are looking for a better way of life overall for their families & themselves.  Would they want to live in a place where they could live more comfortably?  Sure, who wouldn't, but it's not totally economics.  As a matter of fact, the LA folks that I have met pretty much say the same things -- they talk more about the peaceful, tranquil life here rather than becoming wealthy.  Unfortunately, Castro has been the scourge of Cuba for far too long & he has managed to decimate a beautiful country.  When my Grandfather was alive he told me many stories of a Cuba that he loved for its beauty & culture during the pre-Castro years (1920's - 1940's); regretfully, we will never experience such a thing.
D

[bret]

... in response to Re: Re: I do not disagree....., posted by Dennis in CA on Jun 23, 2001

the beauty and culture of cuba is alive and well. castro never decimated the country. he didn't destroy the culture. he destroyed the ecomomy!

the cuba your grandfather told you about is just a short flight away.

your grandfather probably had a few bucks to spend in havana and stayed in a cool hotel, so all he saw was a nice place. but the cuban revolution was a popular one because of the terrible conditions brought about by ruthless dictators like batista. maybe at that time it was just a beautiful place for the lucky few and not the majority of cubans, hence the revolution.

this may be an unpopular thing to say here, but castro is not hated by every cuban living in cuba. you may not understand this, but he still has a lot of (or some) support in cuba.

if there were a fair election, i believe he would not win. but don't kid yourself into believing all the b.s. propoganda generated by our very own government and those crazy cuban-americans in miami.

the place is a beautiful country full of culture. and yes, it's the same beauty and culture that existed before the revolution. the same that your grandfather told you about.

i do agree with the comments in this thread about how the wave of americanos will be both good and bad for the country. the economy will benifit, but the culture you talk about will suffer most when we get there.

[Alberto]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I do not disagree....., posted by bret on Jun 23, 2001

I'm not having a good hair day. Calling cubans in Miami, crazy is most disrespectful and name calling babyish thing you could do. You live in a free country and you just do not understand why someone is very vocal against a government that has oppresed and kiked you out of paradise(of course without Castro) I would like to see your "crazy" reaction if the US government stripe you of your citizenship, throws you out of your country and deprive you of your family and so on.  You owe me an apologie and to the "crazy" cubans.

Regards

Alberto

[Traveler]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: I do not disagree....., posted by Alberto on Jun 23, 2001

during the Elian Gonzalez fiasco.  I do believe that some Cubans are rather fanatical about the politics.  I

[Alberto]

... in response to the Cubans in Miamidid not put on a good..., posted by Traveler on Jun 23, 2001

If you know the mechanics of how Castro thrives, you would understand. He used Elian as a way to make the cubans in Miami look like extremists. He knows their reaction and he mounted the Elian show, just to make them explode. The animosity goes far back. Many have forgotten how many Castro has killed, imprisioned, tortured, exile and so on. Of course they are very touchy in Miami, so he used the Elian case to exploit these feelings and make them look like extremist "maffiosos" He has never cared before when other cuban kids have died in the waters of the strait of Florida or when cubans guards have killed them while trying to escape. Remember: if this government is so wonderful, why the same government kills you if you try to escape? Do they kill you in the US to go to Colombia and meet a lady?

Regards

Alberto

[Traveler]

... in response to Re: the Cubans in Miamidid not put on a ..., posted by Alberto on Jun 23, 2001

and obviously Castro did a wonderful job of manipulating the situation so the American public would be so against the Cuban community.  but I disagree with your position.  The US government wanted to send him back.  The Cuban government wanted him back. The vast majority of Americans wanted to send him back.  the only ones that wanted him to stay were the Cubans.  that kid belongs with his father.  

and I agree Castro is a repressive hijo de puta.  no foreign travel, no freedom of speach or religion, kills his own people.  on the other hand this whole embargo situation is a joke.  why not have Americans go there now and develop trade relations and cultural relations??  because of the Cuban community that's why.  by the way, Cubans in the US can go and visit Cuba quite easiliy if they want.  other Americans cannot.  do you think this is fair???  do you see why some are resentful of the policy???   do you see Americans may feel resentful of because Cubans believe that they are in the US "temporarily" until Castro goes??  yet they get special priviledges not given to other immigrants or even other Americans.  like traveling to Cuba

[Houndog]

... in response to I am NOT a supporter of Fidel Castro..., posted by Traveler on Jun 23, 2001

***the only ones that wanted him to stay were the Cubans. ***

You couldn't be more wrong ! And speak for yourself...this is the center of your  problem...you think Your Views are everyones views, or should be...but you have some of the most wrong and warped views I've ever read.

There are plenty of people besides Cubans from Miami that believed he deserved Asylum . I happen to be one of them.

HD

[DallasSteve]

... in response to Re: you are completely wrong again !!!, posted by Houndog on Jun 23, 2001

It is true that many US citizens wanted Elian to stay in the US.  It is also true that a large majority thought he should be reunited with his father, even if that meant return to Cuba.  Since you (Houndog) like facts I did a quick search and found this page on Gallup's website http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr000128.asp .  It shows that 60% to 33% favored his return (on 1/26/2000).  That's almost 2 to 1.

I think Elian should have been reunited with his father.  I also think the opinions would have been much greater if it were his mother waiting for him in Cuba.  That's the bias most people have about parenting that the mother is the better nurturer. That is often true, but as a caring father, it still bothers me.  

My greatest concern is that at the time many people were making a case that a 5 year-old boy could request political asylum without his parent's permission.  This is ridiculous.  Every child that gets a tourist visa to DisneyWorld will be petitioning for asylum in the US now.  This kind of law only benefits the lawyers.  Maybe Shakespeare was right about lawyers (if you know what I mean).

I also thought it was funny that the press did not pronounce his name as it is pronounced in Spanish.  In Spanish it sounds almost exactly like "alien" as in "non-resident alien".