level of literacy and FSU degrees

[Pordzhik]

A couple of us have touched on this subject below, I have seen several times claims that the FSU has a literacy level of near 100% and a highly educated workforce, but what does education in the FSU mean?

More of a puzzle for me are these FSU degrees, it's been my experience (with my Ukrainian wife) that after five years of study in Kiev for a management and tourism degree, this thing is useless here in England, and to be honest (because I know she won't read this) she don't know anything about management nor tourism as it applies in the real world.

Some of us already know that when a russian calls themselves an engineer or an economist, they mean they operate a power drill in a factory or they work in a shop but will also have degrees to back the claims.

Mike writes below about the FSU doctors degree that won't get a job in the US as a nurse. Then there was the recent thread about the quality of dentistry in the FSU.  These doctors degrees also cannot be used in England, in fact I don't know of any Russian or Ukrainian degree that can be used here or is recognised by any English college or university.(maybe someone can enlighten me?).

Here in the United Kingdom we have doctors, nurses, engineers and all manner of degree holders from the far corners of the world, inc. China, Pakistan, India, Philipines and just about anywhere you care to think of. But not Russians, I'm always hearing about them complaining that they can only find menial work when they used to be doctors etc back home.

Why are these degrees worthless, what do they teach in the colleges and universities of Kiev and Moscow?

[John F]

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

My wife was a dentist in Ukraine, and she made a friend from Russia in college who was a surgeon.  Neither will be resuming their original career in the USA because of the licensing requirements.  Before she can even request an application for licensure, my wife must complete a mandatory course of study which is about two years in length.  Now, bear in mind that most colleges do not offer medical or dental school.  For my wife to obtain the necessary schooling, I would have to quit my job and move to another city or she would have to get an apartment in that city while attending school ...... can you imagine what INS would think of that?

The reason for additional schooling IS NOT because these immigrants professional abilities are below ours.  It is because they have to learn the federal and state legal aspects of being a doctor / lawyer / accountant in the United States.  You see, given the opportunity US citizens file lawsuites for malpractice, negligence, etc.  My wife didn't have to worry about that in Ukraine but she sure would need to worry about it here and needs to be educated about it.

I am an IT professional with a BS degree.  I have worked with other IT professionals who came from Russia and Ukraine and they began working in their career without any problems.

[juio99]

... in response to It's because of OUR culture, posted by John F on Dec 8, 2002

John, my info is a little different from yours.  I have met with 4 ladies in Russia who were medical doctors.  The program there is that they obtain a medical degree after 6 years of university level study.  That is 6 years from first entering university.

Now, in USA a 4 year bachelors is required followed by 4 years of medical school.  So here, a licensed physician has minimum of 8 years of university, while in Russia they have 6 years.

After obtaining MD, the doctors here have 1-2 years of internship followed by 1-6 years of study and practice in a speciality.  After obtaining MD in Russia, they also have internships and specialized study.

It is unclear, and probably varies from case to case, just how the internship and specialization time in USA and Russia compares.

And, it is unclear just how much of the first 6 years of total study for MD in Russia contains medical study vs general study (as would occur with Bachelors in USA).  So we don't really know how the first 6 years in Russia compares with the first 8 years in USA concerning actual medical studies.

However, the physicians I know in Russia will readily concede that regardless of the time of study involved, their training is not as high level as in USA because of the lack of the lastest technology to work with.

JR

[John F]

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by juio99 on Dec 8, 2002

You are correct.  But also realize that licensure is a state by state issue.  An MD licensed in California, for example, cannot practice medicine in Florida until he/she passes the Florida licensure exam.  It may be that a doctor from FSU is given a degree after having completed the two year course ..... remember, many/most of our colleges award credit for experience if you can pass an equivalency exam (CLEP).  My wife acknowledges that our technology far exceeds anything she practiced in Ukraine.

[Pordzhik]

... in response to It's because of OUR culture, posted by John F on Dec 8, 2002

Well Ukrainian dentistry has been getting some bad reviews here lately, I wondered what happened to the good ones? I think that anybody who had the drive and ambition to complete three, four or five years of study in FSU will have retained that ambition? Would you re-locate for your wife to continue her studies?

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

I know a man who did just that.  His wife is a doctor from Venezuela.  She studied for three years to pass the medical boards, and then they had to move to Texas for a 4 year residency.  He plans on retiring after she finishes her residency to stay at home and take care of their (future) children.

These professional women can resume their careers here, but it's a hell of a lot of work and only the most motivated women (with supportive husbands) will make it.

[John F]

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

Ukraine denistry is correctional and preventative dentistry is not practiced.  In other words, they fill, extract, and make bridges, dentures, crowns, etc., but if you don't need that there's no need to see the dentist.  

My wife has discovered dental hygiene, and is currently studying to get a hygenist license.  This will provide an above average salary, no on-call and emergency treatment hassles, and she can easily work part-time if she wants.  Although Florida only awards an associate degree to hygienists, she plans to attend a program offered by a local university that accepts her associates completely toward a batchelors degree in the medical field.

[Frank O]

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

I ran into a headhunter for I'm not sure if I recall if it was a private corp that subcontracts for the government or something here. Anyways this guy says he goes over to Ukraine once a month and contracts doctors from there to come work here in the US. He says their doctors are very good & yes the people are VERY educated. He also says they are MORE than eager to come work here. He said that many come here & after 6 years or so are able to return to Urkaine & live like Sultans over there after earing US Dr's wages. I don't but that's what he told me. I do know that all the girls (at least 5 out of the 6) I went out with were pretty educated or at least very smart & able to hold a good conversation. About the only topic I noticed NO ONE seemed to know or care much about was politics, one of my faves.

[Frank O]

... in response to on my way to Kiev last month..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

pretty funny but I got invited to make a presentation/speech at a local school in LUgansk. I spoke on an influential American "inventor/businessman" (Steve Jobs of Apple fame). Anyways afterward they gave me a tour of the school. We walked into a math class with 10 year olds. They were doing algebra. I don't know about you guys but I didn't start doing algebra till Jr High & I was definately NOT 10! More like 13-14. THAT did impress me. Also the kids seem to be pretty fit. You don't have FAT KIDS like we do in our schools. Probably lack of food.

[wsbill]

... in response to another thing..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

Plus, lack of personal vehicles.

[Pordzhik]

... in response to another thing..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

And you didn't see too many fat adults either did you? other than the old babushkas.

BTW I was introduced to basic algebra at the age of nine.

Are we going to get your trip report soon or did I miss it?

[Frank O]

... in response to Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

because it seems everytime I post something about my situation I get slagged. I like asking advice & have gotten some VERY good advice. I also like reading some of the informative posts. However I hardly frequent this site anymore due to the haranguing many people get. I remember I posted once my lady was a "model" someone responded saying their lady said it meant she was a prostitute. So all of a sudden my lady is a prostitute! She is SO GREEN if she got near a cow she'd probably get bitten, much less being a prostitute! Anyways , I have today off so perhaps I'll post a trip report. My trip WAS a bit unusual so perhaps it might benefit someone. I have no plans on writing about sexual escapades or nothing like that as some here do. I'll try to keep to pertinent info.

[Pordzhik]

... in response to you were lucky...I wasn't going to do a ..., posted by Frank O on Dec 8, 2002

I'm sure your trip report would have some information to benefit someone out there, even maybe the "negative squad" could take something on-board.

[KenC]

... in response to you were lucky...I wasn't going to do a ..., posted by Frank O on Dec 8, 2002

Frank,
There will always be a certain number of guys here that will look for anything to slam anyone.  You really do have to consider the source though.  Most of the "negative squad" have either failed in their attempts over seas or have never even been there!  Another group (smaller) have the opinion that the method used by them is the ONLY correct way to do things and any other technique employed is destined for failure.  But there is an overwhelming majority here that are supportive or post little or never post at all.  Post your trip report for the last group and ignore the others.
KenC

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

...BTW I was introduced to basic algebra at the age of nine...

NINE, I don't know where you went to school.  But in the district I attended, algebra was not offered until the ninth grade. I suppose it was a crappy district.  Where my cousin went to school, they offered algebra in the 6th grade.  That was in the seventies. I don't know how it is today.  Since that time they've had an influx of .....