Let us learn from other's mistakes

[KenC]

Guys,
Why don't we focus on the subject that could help the readers here?  David's post below has created a stir in many areas that are not on topic for this forum.  I know he has been guilty of leading many into off topic rants, but still there is much to be learned from his story regarding FSU women.  Philb pointed out that no one questioned Ukrainlover as a troll because his story was a positive one, yet many here were quick to jump to the conclusion that JohnLV had to be a troll because his story was a negative one.  This happened even after I assured everyone that JohnLV was real.
-
For the record and as I know it, the story David told is pretty accurate.  The $2K difference in costs for a car is just a silly way to search for inaccuracies.  The additional story about him repo-ing the car given to his wife is just that, more info on a story that is evolving.  I have talked to David a number of times and my wife Lena met with him and his wife some time ago here in San Diego.  We both came away with the same impression: that David may have his issues, but he is a decent guy that treated his wife a lot better than she ever deserved.  He even posted, "admittingly I'm a little naive when it comes to girls."  This is the crux of the matter too; that a naive man of 35 was totally hoodwinked by a savvy young Russian woman.  That, my friends, is what we should be talking about.  How it happened and how others can avoid it happening to them.
KenC
p.s. (David's "hate all women" rant is very understandable to any guy here that has felt the emotional sting of divorce.  I know that there were times that I felt the same way as I was going through mine.  Let's just choose to ignore the brainiac BS and focus on what is relative to this forum.)

[don1]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

OK , Ken ; you're right - this should be discussed , hopefully it might prevent something like this from happening to someone else .

However , a lot of us don't know all the history behind this story , or any of the details of the ' courtship ' . So , a lot of this is purely speculation on my part - so with that in mind , take this for what it's worth .

OK , so the guy made a lot of mistakes ; but the mistakes he made are ones that are easy to make , and some of them are mistakes that have been made by others here , myself included . A lot of these horror stories seem to have a few common denominators , the most common being that : these two people just didn't know each other well enough to get married .

As Jeff S pointed out , it's absolutely essential to spend lots of time together . I get the impression that these two didn't . And I don't mean just 'exotic vacation time ' together either . I mean doing lots of everyday types of things together , like shopping for groceries ; taking the bus ; taking the garbage out ; dealing with that rude neighbor in the apartment across the hall ; washing clothes in the bathtub ; walking everywhere and I mean everywhere together ; picking fresh fruit and vegetables at the family Dacha ; shopping the kiosks ; dealing with those government morons at OVIR ; buying train tickets ; walking through those darkened apartment alleyways to visit a relative ; hauling those damn*d plastic shopping bags all over town ; seeing where she works .........well , you get the picture .

You just can't take her out to the best restaurants in town , the best cafes , the best nightclubs , etc , etc ; you can't do ONLY that and expect to find out who she really is . You need to see her reactions , interactions , and behavior in a wide variety of circumstances and situations if you really want to get to know her . The 'less glamorous ' everyday types of situations . As Jeff S pointed out , people on 'dates' tend to be on their 'best behavior' . If that's the only way you've seen your girl , and if that's the only way that she's seen you ; then your expectations of each other are going to be based on perceived or imagined behaviors rather than real or experienced ones . And that usually leads to disappointment for somebody : he's expecting the 'girl of his fantasies come true ' , she's expecting this guy to be super attentive to her 24/7 and since he's spending money like water he's gotta be loaded....Both parties are in for some real disappointments . The success rate for relationships that start like this ain't real high .

Put yourself in his shoes for a minute :  You're on an exotic vacation in a foreign country , the most beautiful woman you've ever met in your life is just hanging on your arm and your every word . She's dressed to the nines . You're on top of the world . At that moment , life is indeed very very good . You know that you're going to remember these moments for the rest of your life.....

That's the time that a lot of guys will either 'pop the question' or take a reality check . It is really difficult for some of us to take our heads out of the clouds ( or out of our @sses ) when caught up in the moment . Before you get carried away , you need to ask yourself : '....hey , how well do I really know this woman ?....' Well , the truth is , a lot of guys just can't do that . Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead ! Some guys get lucky and manage to pull it off anyways . Others aren't so lucky .

The value of 'face time' as Jeff S so eloquently puts it , was expressed rather well in this 'rant' by robobond :

http://planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/messages/80593.htm

Another mistake made here was concerning the handling of money . Money is handled very differently in the FSU vs the USA ; and unless you really take some time to explain some of these differences to your lady , you may be in for a real surprise . Just because you 'own' a house and a new car doesn't necessarily make you rich . You may have bought them both on credit , got a loan , and actually the bank really 'owns' the title to your new car and the deed to your house . Well , the concept of 'credit' is not widely understood by many of these women . They may think , unless you take the time to explain otherwise , that you bought ( translation here : PAID CASH FOR  ) that house and that car . You'd better take the time to explain these cultural financial differences to her - cash/credit , monthly bills , savings , discretionary income , etc , etc ....because you're probably giving this woman more attention , spending more time and money on her than anyone else ever has in her entire lifetime . And if you're taking her out every night to all the best places , wining and dining her , etc , etc ........she has no reason NOT to believe that this lifestyle won't continue after she's come to the USA to live with you ......

The values of explaining these financial differences to her , and a good way to broach the subject with her , can be found in the archives in these posts by Del :

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000192&id=78316

and

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000192&id=78315

Another issue out there is : I don't think that this guy knew himself well enough for this to work . No , that is not intended as a slam on DavidSD or on anyone else . I'm just trying to say that a lot of guys aren't willing to take a good hard look in the mirror and perform an honest and realistic assesment of themselves , their capabilities , and all they do or don't have to offer a woman before undertaking this whole thing . This is something that can be extremely difficult if not downright impossible for some of us ; and I am appreciative of that . But it is a common thread in a lot of these horror stories . Did it happen in this case ? I am not sure , because I don't have all the facts . I am only guessing when I say that perhaps it did somewhat . Only DavidSD knows for sure . I am only saying that if you have emotional/social/personality/honesty issues , they are still going to be issues whether you're seeking a partner from the FSU or from Cowtown , USA ; and that these types of things need to be addressed before you take the plunge .

Well , these threads started by JohnLV/DavidSD really stirred up the pot . I thought for sure that this whole deal sounded kinda trollish to start with ( hey if it looks like/sounds like/smells like/walks & talks like a troll....maybe..?....) but now I'm not so sure . He lost a bit of credibility with some of his initial posts ; but after the guy cooled off a little bit the tone was a little more reasonable . Hope this guy gets some help , and gets some of this stuff straightened out . Also hope that some discussion about it might prevent it from happening to somebody else .  This whole deal can be a touchy subject for some , the whole tone of exchanges like these were best summed up in this post by robobond :

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000199&id=80315

Sheeeeshhh....I'm quoting robobond again . What's up with that ?

Later ,

don

[juio99]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by don1 on Nov 30, 2002

by everyone involved in this endeavor.  All of it is very much common sense, but mostly overlooked.  I am constantly amazed when I read of these engagements after a few days or a few weeks together.  I have spend close to 3 weeks with a few of these ladies (in different segments) and I realize that I know squat about them.  And I also realize that what I do know about each one is under conditions that do not approximate the 'day to day' conditions of ordinary life such as you point out.  We are always having a ball exploring new places, having fun, etc.  But what will she be like when some 'sheet hits the fan,' when the plumbing shuts down, the car breaks down, neighbors are noisy, etc.

I am really envious of some of the guys here who have been successful, even though they were mostly just lucky to end up with a great gal because they did all the wrong things and never really knew her beforehand.

JR

[robobond]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by don1 on Nov 30, 2002

[don1]

... in response to "are you talkin' to me, are YOU tal..., posted by robobond on Dec 1, 2002


...and once again I bow to your wisdom Oh great one .....

Really , robobond - you have given us all some real gems here that I and I'm sure many others here have truly appreciated . And I believe in giving credit where credit is due .

I am still not completely convinced that this guy isn't a troll , but as Ken said , maybe some discussion about the 'mechanics' of it all would still be beneficial to some . I realize that what I've posted will sound like pretty basic , fundamental , and obvious stuff to you guys who have been here a while or been around the block a few times ; but even so maybe it'll help somebody .

later ,

don

[Patrick]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

I think when it comes to finding a foreign wife, being a good judge of character and being secure enough in yourself to walk away from a relationship that's obviously not a good one is paramount.  We all have to spend enough time getting to know the other person, but for those without good people skills, the realization that they're with the wrong person will not come fast enough to avert disaster.  

Some guys are just too needy and we see it in the way they treat women.  Some of these guys use the label "nice guy" for themselves and complain that women always go for the "bad boys."  They may indeed be nice, but from my experience, many ot them are also way too insecure to be very attractive to women.  Giving a woman everything she wants and demanding nothing in return will not make you attractive to her.  It'll just show her that you're weak and needy.

I don't think there's any formula or method for men who lack in people skills to make a good choice.  For them, it's either good luck or the consequences of a bad choice.  No amount of discussion on how to do things right will work for some guys.  They'll continue ignoring obvious problems out of need and make mistakes that most other people see as glaring red flags.  You've got to have sound judgement and be secure.  There's just no substitute for it.

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Patrick on Nov 30, 2002

Patrick,
I agree that good people skills and self confidence is paramount to a successful relationship in a foreign country or at home.  There may not be a formula for the men to aquire these traits either.  That is why time is the key to success in this pursuit.  These "reads" of character and compatibility are not necessarily limited to short periods of time.  That is why it is even more important for guys lacking these skills to take their time.  The limited  the "skill" level, the more time needed.  Why guys rush this so much is beyond me.  Sometimes it is almost like sheep rushing to the slaughter house.  Good post.
KenC

[MtMav]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Patrick on Nov 30, 2002

NT

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Patrick on Nov 30, 2002

I was one of those people most women would label a "nice guy" and pass up in favor of "bad boys." I've never been weak or indecisive, though, just unwilling or uninterested in the game playing that much of modern "dating" has turned into, with the plastic attitudes, the correct brands of clothes, watches and cars, etc. Yet I found what I was looking for overseas - a woman who also wasn't into those games.

Is it possible that the skills you need for sucessful modern dating in the U.S. (flashy clothes and attitudes, visible signs of wealth, bad boy cockiness, etc.) are just the things that will attract the wrong sort overseas? It seems that often, those who post that they've found their true loves admit to putting their faults up-front, downplaying  their assets, and approaching things very humbly. Look at Greg (Feptember) on the Asian board. He advertised himself as a "farm laborer" with no mention of the big farm he owns. Not many golddiggers will hop on the bandwagon of a farm laborer. Another poster on this board admitted to dumping all of his percieved weaknesses on the women up-front.

Like many on these boards, and certainly with the original poster of this thread, I consider myself strong in the knowledge arena and weak in the "judge of character" arena and the "impressing women" arena. Had I been otherwise, I'd have probably not gone overseas. I was lucky, I guess, or at least patient. I was married for the first time to my foreign bride in my mid 30s.

- Jeff S.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

I've posted many times about the necessity for spendling lots of time together to really get to know your potential mate before marrying them. While it's possible for someone to put on a facade for short periods of time, it's not possible for them to keep it on for extended periods. Far too many foreign bride seekers "fall in love" meeting a beautiful girl while while on an exotic vactation in a foreign country, then perhaps follow it up with a romantic week or two on a Mediterranean beach and think they've found "the one." We all put on a facade when meeting new people and experiencing new things. The tendency to want to be accepted is natural - that's why men dress nicer, use more manners, spend more money, etc, while on dates then they do at home. Women, too do this, trying to present themselves in a good light and showing the man what they believe he's looking for.

I do not believe people "change" after they utter their wedding vows, they simply drop the facade they've been putting on. If a person spends enough time with their potential mates, in enough varied situations, both fun and ststressful, with family and friends, as well as strangers, they'd have seen the true personality come through, in my opinion.

I spent about 13 weeks over a span of nearly three years with my foreign bride before we were married and I brought her here. Even then there were plenty of surprises, but I knew her basic personaliy and what to expect from her in most situations.

Yes, I know there are plenty of successful MOB marriages that have had minimal pre-marriage time spent together. In fact there's a poster on the Asian board who applied for and received an exemption from meeting with his K1 fiance due to health reasons. Their marriage is approaching the three year mark and they're both very happy.

Nonetheless, I don't believe there's any substitute for face time. What's the big rush everyone seems to have? I can understand it with mid-thirtysomething women eager to have children, but what's our excuse? MOre time together not only gives you time to see the real her - but it gives her time to see the real you - and maybe that's the big problem. What's the difference who's the incompatable one, so long as you find out before you both make a major mistake.

In just about every one of these "horror story" cases I read about on all three of these boards, they met, held hands in an exotic vacation spot, in a week or two they knew they were destined for each other, then.. well you all know the rest of the stories.

Just my take.

- Jeff S.

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Jeff S on Nov 30, 2002

Nice post Jeff.

[MtMav]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Jack on Nov 30, 2002

n/t

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Jeff S on Nov 30, 2002

n/t

[robobond]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

n/t

[tim360z]

... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002

...jumped the gun.  There is the flip-side---namely marrying the totally wrong RW as I am sure it can happen and does.  Like I married the wrong Aw years ago.  Happens all the time.  I've seen it eat-up guys alive...happens.  Risk...is involved in any marriage.