a couple of things

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Greetings from Corpus Christ..., posted by BFH on Aug 29, 2002

I suggest those who are ignorant of the Orthodox Church go to the OCA website at http://www.oca.org
Check the Q&A for many answers.

The Orthodox Church allows for a marriage between an Orthodox and a non-Orthodox Christian as long as the non-Orthodox was Baptised by water in the name of the Holy Trinity. As with most clergy, an Orthodox Priest charges a small fee for performing marriage rites. For a marriage to be legally recognized in Ukraine, it must be registered with the state. The same as obtaining a marriage license here is the US.

-blm

[BFH]

... in response to "recognized" marriage..., posted by BarryM on Aug 30, 2002

Barry,

I've not been a reader of this board for a long time, however I've spent considerable time in Russia, going back to the late '70's and early '80's.  I hope you were not suggesting I'm ignorant.  Please check that abrasive attitude at the door.

The rule of the Orthodox Church in Russia, admittedly, I don't know squat about the Ukraine, is not to perform marriages until the union is blessed by the State.  For a priest to perform a marriage that he knows ahead of time will not be a legally binding marriage goes against the grain.  The Church will not condone it, hence a priest will have to be convinced he is doing the right thing by performing what the Church would call a sham.  Of course, it is done with some frequency, and the "fee", as you put it, is not small.  The "gift", I mentioned, to the Church would have to be a somewhat larger than the usual fee charged by the priest for a legal, regular, binding, marriage. Imagine how that priest feels after doing such a marriage, knowing that those two people are leaving the Church and are really NOT married.  To them, it's the same as giving people a license to commit sin.

I met with Orthodox clergy before my wedding, and the Church is pretty selective about what they consider a "real" baptism.  Since I was Roman Catholic, mine was recognized, I wouldn't want to be a "Holy Roller" and try to make that case to the Orthodox clergy.

You really should think before you use terms like "ignorant", there are a few of us out there who have "been there, done that".

[Jack]

... in response to Re: "recognized" marriage..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

BFH, it's nothing personal. I have seen BarryM from the Texas call many people worse names before when referring to Ukraine as "the Ukraine".

[Apk1]

... in response to Re: "recognized" marriage..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

BFH, tell us a little more about yourself. Are you American?, I am curious why  you traveled to Russia in the Soviet era, and what are your plans now for going. Are you married, engaged or searching in Russia?

[BFH]

... in response to Tell us more..., posted by Apk1 on Aug 30, 2002

One thing I can help you all with; if you've "been there and done that", and maybe developed a taste for Russian food. I have several sources for domestic caviar, both black and red, I'd be happy to share with you.  How's that for a peace offering?

BFH

[BFH]

... in response to Tell us more..., posted by Apk1 on Aug 30, 2002

To answer your question.  Yes, I'm an American. A native born Texan, in fact.

Why did I go to Soviet Russia?
During the late 70's and early 80's we shared a period of detante with Russia, at least until "Peanut Jimmy" screwed it up.  Many American companies did business with Russia on a "by contract" basis during those years.  I was fortunate to be involved with our Russian project, I had dozens of Russian Engineers and Geophysical experts in my care for about two years and made several trips to help them kick off some oil exploration ventures in eastern Siberia.

I am married to a Russian, a Moscovichka.  She is the blond version of the current Miss Universe.

I do manage to butcher the Russian language fairly well, but that's the product of a 6 month crash course from the Berlitz School of Language.  I don't do tapes....

For the past 3 or 4 years I have traveled to Moscow about 4 times a year.  I'm a part time resident there, we have a 4 room flat located next to the 1980 Olympic village area, and we own a semi-nice dacha 50 km outside of Moscow.  (semi-nice means it has running water 5-6 months of the year, but no indoor plumbing, we are working on that).

Jack:  I wish to state I do know that when talking about "the Ukraine", I should be saying "Ukrainia", but sometimes that just doesn't flow with a sentence structure.  Besides, 99.9% of the people would give me a pass on such a minor screwup.

Now for a small commentary.  Even though I have "been there and done that", for a long time.  I don't know any more about Russia and Russians than,,,say,,, a Frenchman who came to America for two weeks, spend all his time Dayton, Ohio, and then goes home claiming to be an expert on America and Americans.  Russians are just too diverse and complicated as a race and culture to try to understand all there is about them in such a short period of time.

It was not my intent to start a fight here, sorry if it came out that way.  But you all have the right to know some credientials before you accept anything I say as having any value.

Regards,
BFH  

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Tell us more..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

BFH,

 I hear from clients and individuals almost every week who will say "the Ukriane" and I politely tell them that they are dating themselves and that the country is called Ukraine.

 There are a few places where "the" is correct, such as the Netherlands or the Baltics, but Ukraine is not one of those.

 No problem BFH, it's just a little thing that I try to get across to everyone who I see use the term "the Ukraine". No offense was intended. I hope you will continue to share your wealth of information as I love learning new things about Russia and the FSU.

[Apk1]

... in response to Re: Tell us more..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

n/t

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: "recognized" marriage..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

Good heavens! You think that being there and doing makes you not ignorant?

Shucks... not to members of this board!

You will regularly find members of this board who have never been on an international trip farther than Canada dispensing all sorts of advice.

And, although BarryM has never been to Russia, and has no immediate plans to do so, he DOES study Pimsleur tapes, and he has converted to Russian Orthodox -- so that makes him an expert... don't you think?

He does.

Why, he even stands in judgement of Mark H, and tells Mark that he is "not serious". I mean, Mark H has only been there something like five times. He can't be serious! Why, he doesn't even study Russian!

You really need to get over the thought that "going there" makes you an expert. And especially the thought that giong there more than once makes you more of an expert.

Hell, if we eliminated everyone who had only been there once (or less) from offering advice... what would we be left with?

Oh yeah... I know... we'd be left with a board that offered advice based on experience instead of presumptive opinions.

We wouldn't want that now... would we?

(Oh... and by all means.. don't point out that Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox are two different entities that recognize different ruling bodies...)

[BFH]

... in response to Re: Re: "recognized" marriage...., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

Maybe......

If he is a paid up, no dues pending, whatever, member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, then I guess he's an expert.

According to my local clergy, there is no difference between Russian, Ukrainian, and Greek, Orthodoxy.  I guess it's all depending on which side of the fight you are on.
Personally, I don't give a hoot.  It's really not important to me.

Cheers,
BFH

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: "recognized" marri..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

The Orthodox Church is not a Masonic lodge or some other fraternal organization. We don't have "dues" and there is no such concept as "paid up". If you were to ask an Orthodox clergyman how much would it take to be "paid up" the response would be that your debt is beyond your capacity to pay and the only redemption is through Christ.

There are such concepts as "tithes" and "stewardship" in the Orthodox Church but these go beyond the simple act of giving money.

Your comments on the Orthodox Church are blatantly insulting especially about the references to bribes to Orthodox clergy or "gifts" as you call them to perform a corrupted Rite of the Sacrament of Marriage. You are basically advocating the deficating and defilement of the Church.

To quote you: "Imagine how that priest feels after doing such a marriage, knowing that those two people are leaving the Church and are really NOT married. To them, it's the same as giving people a license to commit sin."

That's a really scummy thing to say. The Orthodox, unlike the Roman Catholics, never had in it's history the selling of indulgences. I could say some really horrible things about some recent incidents in the Roman Catholic Church, but I have too much respect for the decent humble Roman Catholics who participate in this forum.

You BFH, however, are just a lowlife... plain and simple.

-blm

[BFH]

... in response to Don't use insulting language when referr..., posted by BarryM on Aug 30, 2002

"You BFH, however, are just a lowlife... plain and simple."

-blm

Barry, you claim to be a Texan,  so am I.  Can we get together somewhere?

BFH

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: "recognized" marri..., posted by BFH on Aug 30, 2002

Well, I'm no expert, either.

But when I toured the Russian Orthodox monastary in Kiev, they were VERY specific that there was a difference...

[Pordzhik]

... in response to Re: Re: "recognized" marriage...., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

I will refrain from further comment.

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Re: "recognized" marriage...., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

Well Markintex, at least some of us will say BarryM is right in his assumptions about one person!