About last night......

[MarkInTx]

... in response to About last night......, posted by Mark H on Jul 11, 2002

Seems to me that she expects it, and wants it. You need to do it.

Mark... I'm not saying swear off AWs... but this one you need to swear off of.

The positions are set and you have already lost the high ground here. From here on out, it is just a battle of attrition with you slowly losing more and more ground to her.

I've seen it before.

I actually had a girlfriend once who's favorite expression was: "It's all about me." I mean, she would say it with the cutest little smile... but she honestly felt that way.

She, too, was a single mother.

Let me tell you what I found dating single mothers. (Almost ALL of the women I have dated have been single mothers...)

First, most of them have been hurt by some guy, that's why they are single mothers.

Secondly, most of them have sacrificed for their children. This is noble. And it is real. Some of them have made incredible sacrifices.

Third (and this is the important part) almost all of them feel that the next guy they are with needs to "make it up to them" for one and two.

They have spent nights home alone, actually thinking: "You know the next guy I am with is going to be different. He is going to be ..."

And they have drawn up a list.

Do you see where their focus is? My girlfriend was at least honest when she said: "It's all about me."

Now, someone could say that those of us heading to the FSU have done the same thing. And, maybe they'd be right.

But I'll tell you where that analogy falls apart:

I was miserable trying to be the "Single Mom's" superman. It's a hard job. And I seemed to be spending a lot of time walking on egg shells.

By contrast... Victoria keeps telling me that she has never been happier than she is right now. She is what I wanted *by nature*. She doesn't have to do anything special for me to say: "Wow! Where has she been all my life!" She isn't "working" to be what I wanted. She never walks on egg shells around me. She tells me she has never felt more free to be herself.

She "matches my list" not by what she does, but by who she is. I match her list the same way.

Now... look at the list your AW has made. Has she said, "I want a guy who is loving, good looking, and good with my daughter?"

Or is her list more like: "Well, I need a guy who makes at least $100K a year, has a nice home, who can take care of me, and be there for me. And who will let me buy the furniture -- because Lord knows he has no taste -- and who can afford to get me a nice car... send my daughter to a good college some day... and... and ... and..."

If you go back to her now after she has thrown that gauntlet down, then she has you right where she wants you.

She is setting the pace and conditions of your relationship, and you have accepted them...

And another thing, about affection: It is either there or it isn't. And, it has been my experience, that affection DIMINISHES over time... it does not increase. If you have a woman who has no trouble keeping her hands off of you, and who can "take or leave" affection... then believe me, she will be able to "take or leave" sex, too.

I've been married to one of those. She wrapped sex up in more conditions and layers than than you'd find in an Enron contract. The result? Well.. how'd you like to be married to a woman and go six months without sex? And believe me, the times you get together are no picnic, because you're afraid of doing something wrong and getting cut off for another six months...

If lack of affection bothers you now... multiply it by ten. That is how you will feel when you are married. Feelings don't change when a ring goes on her finger. (If she's abstaining for moral reasons, fine... but that doesn't explain her lack of AFFECTION...)

As for advice in the FSU... I have been told that the most beautiful women are from Kherson ;-)

But, seriously, if I were you, I would contact RW...

[Mark H]

... in response to You mean you didn't dump her?, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 11, 2002

Mark,
Excellent post as usual. I replied to your email, you've got mail as they say. You also know that I haven't been around much the last 6 months or so. I don't even know who RW is? I saw you explain it to someone else in a post and I know she sets people up but I don't know her or know how to contact her.

My last trip to Kiev with Jack was a good trip. I don't want to go to Kiev though, I think the agencies are full of crap. Like I said in my post trip report, I felt the ladies had ringers in their books who make a living out of "dating" american guys.

They were professional daters, I don't want any part of that. Sorry Jack, but they were. There were sincere girls also but many were pro's.

Jack, I also notice you have Milena's photo on your site still. You KNOW she is a scammer, how can this be? I'm not busting on you but you are always so quick to jump on other "scammers" and "Scam agencies" yet you have  a KNOW scammer plastered right in the middle of your site? Why?

Mark H.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to part for Mark, part for Jack Bragg........., posted by Mark H on Jul 11, 2002

Mark,

Since I complained about Jack using this term in reference to Kherson Pearl, I will apply the same standard to you.

Milena and you had a bad date. As I recall (correct me if I am wrong) she picked the most expensive resturaunt she could, and gave you some song and dance about not being able to leave Kiev right away...

And, since at the same time I was getting emails from her telling me that I was the love of her life...

OK... I will admit... she is maybe not the most sincere lady in Kiev...

BUT... scammer?

I don't think you can say that. She never asked me for money. To my knowledge, she never asked you for money.

Maybe she's having fun "dating" right now... and isn't really serious about getting married... but that isn't the same thing as being a scammer...

[Jack]

... in response to part for Mark, part for Jack Bragg........., posted by Mark H on Jul 11, 2002

Mark, I will not tolerate any scammer on my site. I am not scam-proof, as I have discovered now five women I have had on my site over the last 4.5 years that I feel were scammers. And it is with the help of other men that I was able to confirm that the women were indeed scammers.

The only Milena I know of is on my page 1, ID number 15. If you are insinuating that I KNOW this lady to be a scammer, you are dead wrong. I know of some men who have met her and have taken a great interest in her. Without getting too deeply into private matters, I know that she has had second visits. Everything I have heard from any man who has met her has had good things to say about her.

If you think she is a scammer please tell me now what she did and how she scammed you. Your's would be the first scam report I have on this lady and I think you know my policy in that I need two confirmed, independent reports before I will put a woman on the known scammers link, but if you have a good verifiable case against her I will put her on the suspected scammers link. Please send me any letters or e-mails she may have sent you in which you think would help identify her as a scammer. Show me where she ask for money, gifts, had a sick child or mother? Please tell me and show me what you can so that if she is a scammer I can remove her QUICKLY and give you four free addresses in return for your help.

With regards to your feelings towards Kiev women. These were the same exact feelings you had expressed to me sometime ago, I forget now, maybe a year and a half ago. Because you felt this way about Kiev women we went to great lengths to make sure you would meet several sincere ladies in a city that I thought you would do well in, Dnepropetrvosk. Our original plans were you were landing in Kiev one day, and the next day you were taking a train to Dnepropetrovsk, so our original plans were for you to be in Kiev like a day and a half, not a week. As I re-call, you were the one who wrote me and said, and this is not your exact words, I will add a little to it, "Jack, am having a great time in Kiev with these ringers and professional daters, will not be going to Dnepropetrovsk".

Mark, I didn't want you spending a week in Kiev! Remember, we had already discussed your feelings about Kiev ladies, you said you did NOT want to spend time in Kiev. We were landing in Kiev, spending the night and leaving the next day. You felt that Kiev ladies were not the type of ladies you were looking for, so we made plans for you to meet ladies from Dnepropetrovsk. I was as shocked as anyone to see that you, on your own, had decided that these bad Kiev women were now good.

[Mark H]

... in response to !!!!!!!!!....Help please.....!!!!!!!!, posted by Jack on Jul 12, 2002

Jack,
I'm not interested in digging up old dirt. You KNOW and I KNOW that Milena is NOT for real. MarkinTX knows she's not for real either. She's full of crap and she's a scammer. She may not be talking about sick mothers, sick kids, or asking for cash but she is not serious. She did inform me that we could get married "unofficially" and I could "take care" of her for 2 years because she could not come to America just yet cuz "her dad was in the military and it would jeapardize his job" but I could "send her money and visit a couple of times a year". Sound legit to you? She's a scammer. If she was on any other site, you'd be fileting the owners. Of course she's on YOUR site so she's okay.

Hmmmm, looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, smells like a pig......it's a pig. She's a scammer.

As for my trip, yes I did want to stay in Kiev. For two reasons. I already had a girl there that I could call on if I needed to, a good friend that went sour due to dating other women and I was having a blast with Ilya. No need to go to Dnepetrovsk. I guess I knew I couldn't get married anyway and we were having a ball chasing chicks. Old news, no sense in rehashing spilt milk. Don't take it so personally Jack, I just asked a question. I have always said your company provides outstanding service. I have always championed your staff. I am simply wondering why a scammer hawk such as yourself has a scammer on your site?

That's all.

Mark H.

[Jack]

... in response to Re: !!!!!!!!!....Help please.....!!!!!!!..., posted by Mark H on Jul 12, 2002

MarkH, I will respectfully disagree with you. I think Milena is a good woman. No other guy has ever said or mentioned that she was a scammer. I do know for a fact that she was very interested in meeting MarkinTex, she passed her excitement and feelings on to Rostick, who told me. I was hoping the two could meet. Something happened, I don't know what exactly, it might have been when MarkinTex went underground and stopped communicating with everyone, including Milena, and I don't know what happened there but I think MarkinTex basically dropped her and everyone he was communicating with, again I am not sure, maybe I'm totally wrong. But MarkH, this is why I don't post any woman as a scammer from ONE report. You don't offer any proof, only what you say. The great majority of scammers will say something in writing, in a letter, or e-mail, which will help to identify a woman as a scammer. In your case, I guess, you are saying this and that. I would just like to ask you for some proof. MarkH, when guys report scammers to me, and I get scammer reports everyday, they do not tell me the woman said this or that, they show me what she wrote him, what she said in her e-mail, he sends photos of the ladies in the outfit he bought for her, etc. It is not so hard to know which ladies are scammers. I do not believe Milena is a scammer and just because the two of you did not have an interest in one another is not nearly enough for me to even consider her a scammer.

YOU are mistaken, when you say I KNOW she is a scammer, I DO NOT know this woman to be a scammer, period! If I thought for one second she was a scammer she would NOT be on my site!

If she looks like a good girl, sounds like a good girls, and thank god smells like a good girl, she is probably a good girl!

You smell a pig, and are the only man to date that has smelled a pig, other men smell a good girl. I need a few more pig smellers with just a little more than she said-he said proof before I can post her as a scammer.

D@mned MarkH, I really wish you would have told me a few days before your trip you were only going to stay in Kiev!! Up until the day you left for Germany before you got to Ukraine you had me and Galina working like crazy in setting dates for you in Dnepropetrovsk. D@mn, and to think all that could have been avoided by you just telling us you had already changed your mind about going to Dnepropetrovsk and you were going to be staying in Kiev all along.

And MarkH, I only take it personally when someone with seemingly no or little regard to others feelings or emotions does something that effects a lot of other people, ESPECIALLY those of several sincere ladies.

[BarryM]

... in response to !!!!!!!!!....Help,  please help, just ne..., posted by Jack on Jul 12, 2002

2 headstrong folks butting heads only leads to headaches.

Mark, you didn't work Jack's program like you should have, therefore you didn't have satifactory results. Milena may be a "player" and not as sincere as she should. Not a scammer, but just a poor prospect for a wife. People who wish to do business with Jack have to work his program. There is another Texas agency based in Houston that may be more to your liking, Marianna's Marriage Agency:

http://www.mariannasmarriageagency.com

The phone # is 281-358-5399

This is a mom and pop agency that only works out of Chernovtsy, Ukraine. The principals are Cecil and Marianna Sandstrum. Jack and I have met them both and Marianna sometimes comes to my church. Be warned though, Cecil is very headstrong and sometimes he rubs people the wrong way. He screens his clients for sincerety. Their program is much different and more streamlined than most agencies.

Jack, there is no point bringing up this old crap such Mark's trip to Ukraine. It makes both of you look bad. You should investigate Milena and determine her sincerety. She's probably not a scammer, but not necessarily sincere.

-blm

[MarkInTx]

... in response to !!!!!!!!!....Help,  please help, just ne..., posted by Jack on Jul 12, 2002

I'm not going to wade into this fray.

I'll let you two duke it out...

However, I didn't "drop" her. She dropped me. She didn't email me (inexplicably) for two weeks (after emailing me a couple of times a day. BTW, she speaks English, and had email access at work and at home, so there was no problem there that would explain her sudden silence...)

This was a pretty critical time to stop writing, becsuse we were trying to finalize our meeting. I started trying to confirm dates with her and -poof!- she vanishes.

When she writes me again, I asked her what happened, and she says that she went away for a couple of weeks. (This was during the time that MarkH visited her in Kiev.) I told her that it was fine with me if she was seeing someone else, or whatever, but I needed her to be honest.

Then she got kinda pissy with me. She told me that I was too old for her anyway. And I said, OK... good luck...

Actually, to be honest... I think she may have gotten MarkH and me mixed up.

But then about a month later, she writes me again and says that she was still interested in meeting me when I came to Kiev, and that I shouldn't let what MarkH told me about her color my opinion.

I wrote her back and said, "It has nothing to do with anything MarkH said. It has to do with the fact that when I was trying to make arrangments, you disappeared, and when I asked you about it, you were not honest with me."

So... Do I think she's a scammer?

Not by the purest definition.

Is she a sincere lady who wants to find a husband? I can't know what's in her heart... but she seemed to be playing games to me.

It may well be that she is simply immature. She is only ... what 24? That is really too young for me, anyway. So, she was right about that...

[Jack]

... in response to Milena, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 12, 2002

MarkinTex,

  Of course I hear a lot of little things about how women feel and what they say about the guys who are corresponding with them. I don't remember all the details as to how you started corresponding with Milena or when, but I do re-call Rostick telling me how excited Milena was in getting your letter, and this was something she had not done up to that time.

 Maybe you are right in that she confused you for MarkH. And I have no problem in a woman telling a man that she went away for a couple of weeks. I can tell you this, she was not with MarkH during this time as I believe she saw him on one evening for one date. So as many of us guys tell the ladies we are corresponding with when we are asked where we are going when we are going to see some Russian women, do you think most guys tell the ladies this or do you think they tell them they are going on a little trip or vacation for a few weeks?

I would be very surprised if many good Russian women are going to tell a guy they are writing with that they are going to go spend a week with some guy who is coming to see them. I think for her to say that she was going away for a few weeks was a very proper and fitting thing to say at that point in your's relationship.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Milena, posted by Jack on Jul 12, 2002


Nope. That's fine.

But when you are trying to set up details for a visit, and she simply stops writing, it will flat out put the breaks on the "relationship."

And, unless she was "going away" with a guy for two weeks, I fail to see how she can't send an email (even if it is just "I can't write for a few days...") when she has access every day at work, and every night at home.

And there was more, too... I just don't want to get into it.

I do think that she was simply enjoying "the dating life."

Just a feel I got, expeically when she wrote me later.

Some of her letters were pretty mean, too.

But it doesn't matter to me one way or the other...

[Oscar]

... in response to !!!!!!!!!....Help,  please help, just ne..., posted by Jack on Jul 12, 2002

I remember hearing about this when it happened.  I think Jack is quite right, when you commit to meet certain women, you really should follow through and meet them.  
My situation was no different.  I went to Dnepropetrovsk for a week, met and fell for my girl, but I had women waiting to meet me in Odessa as well.  It was difficult to leave but I told her I needed to follow through and meet these women and that it would be terribly rude of me not to.  I expected her to be upset about it but guess what, as much as she really didn't want me to go (I could tell just looking at her face) she told me she respected me for it and not once did she ask me not to go!  I went and the whole time I was there, I was thinking about her!  I called my interpreter back in Dnepro from Odessa after a few days to see if she had heard from my girl and she said she had and she said my girl wasn't sleeping well or eating hoping that I would be coming back.. When I had met the women I had agreed to meet in Odessa (took me about 5 days), I left and went back to Dnepro and my girl was waiting for me at the train station with a single long stem rose she had gotten for me (first time a woman ever gave ME a flower!).  But I was glad I went on and met the women I had scheduled to meet because coming back to my girl, it just made me know all the more that she was the one for me, I didn't have to wonder "what if?" about any of the women I was supposed to meet.  And although it was hard for her, my girl also respected me for not just ditching those other women I had promised to meet.

My 2 cents,
Oscar

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: !!!!!!!!!....Help,  please help, jus..., posted by Oscar on Jul 12, 2002


That's not the discussion...

MarkH DID meet Milena.

He thinks she is a scammer.

Jack thinks she is not.

This has nothing to do with MarkH reneging on his trip to Dnep...

[Oscar]

... in response to Yes... but, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 12, 2002

Mark, I was responding only to Jacks comments about MarkH reneging on meeting the women he was scheduled to meet.  I also remember it when it happened.  So I guess it's MY discussion! LOL!  
I can't comment on the scammer discussion as I know nothing about that..

Oscar

[MarkInTx]

... in response to part for Mark, part for Jack Bragg........., posted by Mark H on Jul 11, 2002

OK... since we're long time friends, I won't tell you to go read the archives...

RW -- AKA Russian Wife. Long-time Poster. (Almost always makes a great deal of sense when she posts!)

Lives in Washington State, married an American.

Her web-site is: www.ladaconsulting.com

(Got all of that from her profile...)

I almost went with her twice. First time I contacted her after I had already made my St. Pb arrangments, so the timing was not right.

Second time I was considering hiring her, and then fate played a trump card, and I was given a free trip to Brazil.

Victoria found me there...

But, I liked the way that RW explained her services. I think you are a prime candidate for using her services. I think that you should only hire her when you are serious about getting married...

But, I have never used her services. I've just always liked her posts. She seems like a classy lady.

If you decide to go on your own, and don't want to go to Kiev again, (and we all know that you and Jack -- by mutual decision -- won't do business together again...) why don't you contact A Kherson Rose? Kherson has... I've been told... the most beautiful women in Ukraine ;-)

You can talk to Tim from Kherson Rose. He lives in OKC. Not too far from you if you wanted to visit and go over things with them before you made your decision.

Glad to have you back, btw!

[Oscar]

... in response to About last night......, posted by Mark H on Jul 11, 2002

Hi Mark,

You have one more trip under your belt than I do but I will tell you that I completely understand your feeling about "the search"..  It can be tough to mentally get up for starting over again.  
My first trip I went on I used an agency for everything, never again.
Next 2 trips I went it "alone" as you mention, writing girls on my own from the internet, my own interpreter etc.  My interpreter would take me to different small agencies in Kiev and I would pick girls from the different catalogues.  More than HALF of the agencies I went to were rip-offs in my opinion.  Example- I went to one with my interpreter and bought like 10 phone numbers.  Well, of the 10, 2 had gotten married and another 3 were out of town, so we contacted the agency thinking they would certainly replace those girls and we were told "forget it"! LOL!  One lady who ran an agency was very nice at first.  Found out later that she literally threatened to put curses on her girls if they didn't do what she told them and pretty much terrorized her girls!  After I had found a nice girl in her agency and we went out about 4 times, the owner told me that I would of course need her to help it get it to lead to marriage and that I would need to pay for that (of course this was not discussed in the beginning when I paid $15 for the girls address and for a date to be set up).  I asked her how much and she told me "oh, 2-3 thousand dollars, what is that to you rich Americans!"  Can you believe that?  Well, I told her no way, that I had bought her address and that I could take it from there.  She then got this smug look on her face and wished me good luck.  Well, I then understood that if I didn't pay what she wanted, she would basically sabotage things with this girl, telling her I was a bad guy, or threatening her etc..  Well, I talked to the girl about this and she told me it was true, that this lady was pretty much a "monster" (her words).  Well, I told her we certainly didn't need this ladys permission to do what we wanted, but amazingly, she really cooled off after that, became "unavailable".  Of course she was in on the scam and when they realized I wasn't going to pay anything more, I got dumped! LOL!  After that, I was so done with agencies for girls!    
I liked it better on my own than the full agency thing, just didn't happen to hook up, LOTS of scammers and scam agencies.
My last trip, with Jacks help, I ran an ad for the first time and I found my girl that way.  She's never set foot in an agency (not that there are not some good agency girls out there, but I just don't want to deal with it!).  Most of the women who respond to ads are not in agencies.  
I can say that if I were going back, there is no way I would do so without a personal ad.  And my ad was really run too late (my fault).  I would run an ad about 3 months before going and again a month before going.  You would have a large amount of really nice women to meet and likely zero scammers..  You correspond with women from the first ad, then when you get there, you get all the responses from your second ad, have your interpreter and go it alone that way.  I did not have one single no-show or even one girl being late for a meeting who responded to my ad!  These women were all serious and very considerate.

My 2 cents,
Oscar