... in response to Rationalizing? I don't see it..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 30, 2002Mark:
You are quibbling now...
Greg: Just a flat response as you did not respond to my post and I think that I know why.
Mark: All things being equal... you do agree that if two people lived together they would know each other better than if two people did not?
Right?
Greg: It would seem logical but is it truth? You seem to fail to remember a point I made in my post. I do not want to take the time to make it again but, one would have to do a separate study on those people who had the higher divorce rate in spite of living together for over a year before marrying.
You are assuming that they knew each other better. Some people are capable of assessing others and others are not no mater how long they live together plain and simple. You are assuming that all people are equal. People find themselves in situations because of their choices. You are assuming that all people make similar choices that all turn out the same.
Even if they do know each other better, that is only one of many, many factors. Do not get hung up on the notion that they had to know each other better and thus knowing each other better is of no help. In doing such you choose to put your head in the sand and assume that there could not be any other factors.
Mark: So, you are basing your feeble argument on the fact that *maybe* the people involved in the study (which was over a thousand, by the way) are just bad examples of relationships? That seems a little far-fetched...
Greg: That is my point to you, you are basing your feeble argument on the observation that those in this study who lived together before getting married had a high divorce rate. You then run with this one point and make a case as to how you do not have greater risk marrying a woman from the FSU. You do not choose to consider any of the other factors that increase the risk of these marriages only a feeble attempt to discount one.
Mark: The evidence I cited was a large enough sample that it took into account the variations about how some people are better at reading people than others.
Certainly there are some people so clueless that if they lived together a thousand years they would not know the other party...
But your dogged insistence that somehow everyone involved in the research data was clueless is a pretty anemic argument.
Greg: Ok smarty pants 
----- You tell me why people who lived together before marrying would have a higher divorce rate. There has to be a reason. Have ever thought about that? I will be very interested to hear what you say because, according to you it is not likely that they had a problem. Now, in answering this you are going to have to come up with something that could make this happen other than the fact that they knew each other better and that is why it did not work. And, in doing so, you are going to have to conclude that there was something different about these people and how they choose. Knowing someone better does not increase divorce rate. It is something else. You are simply not wanting to acknowledge this as it takes the foundation right out from your argument.
Mark: As for your "logic" ... I'm sorry, I guess I missed it.
Greg: And you know what, as long as you feel the need to justify your position, you won't.
Mark: Here is what I have understood from what you have said.
Correct me if I am wrong:
You think that the men who are engaged in this pursuit do it solely because they can get younger and more beautiful women in the FSU than they can here, due to the financial advantages that American men can offer.
So, they go over and rob the cradle, and then justify it by talking about love, and how knowing someone is really not important, etc, etc.
In a nutshell (and in a lot less words ;-) That's what you are saying, right?
Greg: This does not apply to everyone but it is the end result for most I would suspect regardless of what they say.
Mark: Now, although I would not call you a troll, I do think that you are deliberately refusing to admit that there are other factors involved.
Greg: How can you say that. This has nothing to do with what a disagreed with in your post and thus was not addressed.
Mark: I can't answer for everyone.
I can't answer for you. Maybe that was the only reason you went looking. Maybe you thought that you could get a younger and prettier wife there than here, and that's why you went. I don't know.
I can only answer for me.
And even though you refuse to comment on this, I will say it again:
The ages of my last four American girlfriends were: 31, 34, 28, and 29. That is an average age of 30 and a half. Victoria is 31.
I can send you pictures of the four AWs I am referring to, if you want me to ... but, trust me, they were all quite beautiful. (Not as beautiful as someone like LP can get, of course... I mean, we all have to stay in our own leagues...) But they were all very attractive women.
I didn't marry them. And it wasn't because they were too old or not pretty enough.
Instead, I met, fell in love with, and proposed to a 31 year old woman from Ukraine.
I fail to see how I am "justifying" myself in that.
Help me on that one, because I really don't see your point.
Greg: Once again, my point is that you twisted some facts to justify what you are doing. You do not need to justify yourself.
Mark: Your whole point seems to be that I found someone younger and prettier in Ukraine... and I can show you that it is simply not true. She is neither younger, nor more beautiful (though I will deny that if she asks me it!) She is as beautiful, surely. But trust me, from a purely looks perspective any of these women were "pretty enough."
Greg: That has nothing to do with my point. I was not discussing that relative to you. I was saying that you were twisting facts to justify what you are doing - nothing more. I did not have any information about any of the age beauty stuff to even make a comment.
Mark: So... if we toss out the young and pretty... (which we HAVE to do -- surely you will agree to that, won't you?) what are we left with?
How am I deluded?
How am I lying to myself and justifying my choice?
I am really confused... I don't see your point. Not at all.
Greg: The only dilution that I can comment on is manipulating data to arrive at a conclusion that seems to justify what you are doing. Why do you feel a need to do that?
Mark: The only thing you can say is that I don't know Victoria as well as I could know an AW. And I tell you that my painful life experience has been that all you can really know about a person you actually will know in a rather brief period of time.
You want to call me crazy for that? Fine.
Greg: I would never accuse someone for following there heart as being crazy. Again, I am only saying you do not have to justify following your heart and once you start trying to do that, you only injure yourself.
Mark: But are you really saying that it is simply NOT true that my fiance from Kherson has a different set of life values than the women I have met in America.
Greg: We have never discussed this.
Mark: Do you completely discount that a different culture will instill different values in a person, and that these values *might* be more conducive to a happy family and marriage?
Greg: We have not discussed this either. We do not really know a lot about that. We know that they have a lot of marital problems over there. We choose to blame the men over there don't we. Although I do not know the truth, I tend to believe it is true. I also have empathy for the men over there as when there is no opportunity men do not do well. We also know that there is a special word for lies, forgot what it is, that insinuates that lying to a man by secrecy or choice of words to mislead is totally acceptable in their culture. This is not something I came up with. We know that they can be every bit as wicked as any woman could be.
At this point, I do not have any reason to doubt this. What else do I think. I think that when hardship has been a part of one's life for so long, coupled with the issues of men, there is the great ability created to appreciate a loving man who also can provide security in a way that few AW could. Appreciation is a reflection of perspective. You can go to the FSU and find a woman of quality who will appreciate who and what you are far more easily than you can in the USA. Therefore, there will be a big difference between women from the FSU and AW. Also, the mere fact that people from the FSU appreciate the arts more than the typical American means something. I do not want to go into it as it would be too many words.
Mark: It's not all agency fluff, you know. There is some reality there. And you have also completely discounted all of the testimonials from the many happy marriages on here.
Greg: Mark, you are not staying to the topic of what I questioned. You are only trying to manipulate the issue off topic just as you manipulated facts to try and prove that knowing someone better does not help in choosing a life time partner. In fact, you admit that the opposite, knowing someone less improves your chances is foolish yet, your argument has to include that as a truth if you say is correct. If you can not see that, I am not going to go over it again. You are more into the argument.
Mark: Why?
You know what I think?
I think you gave up because this was too hard, and now you want to justify YOUR decision.
And then when suddenly there is a rash of engagements, you WANT to believe that all of these men are making foolish choices.
Because if we are not making foolish choices, and deluding ourselves... what does that say about your choice to give up?
Greg: Ah, because someone attacks a point that you make, there can not be any truth in it. There must be an explanation. If he is not a troll there must be something else. This is the denial that happens when you have to justify and when someone catches you at it.
I have not given up on all of this. I am taking a break right now. I have found a couple of wonderful AW that make that so easy to do but, mainly it is because of some work that I am doing that I am so enthralled with - to the point that temporarily a permanent relationship is in second place relative to priority.
Mark: Here is what else I think: What it says is... nothing.
Everyone must make the best choices for their lives.
To paraphrase a bible verse: "We must all find our own way, with fear and trembling..."
You gave up on the search. OK. Fine. (though maybe you should change your handle, eh?)
Greg: There you go again assuming.
Mark: But... Guess what? I did too. I sat in a resturaunt sitting across from KenC and his lovely wife, and told them both that I had given up on Russia.
His wife told me that I was crazy to give up, and that the right woman was there for me. I just had to try again.
And as it turned out, she was right...
Enjoy your time with your American Woman. Believe me, I hope it works out for you. I know that there are many wonderful women in America.
But for me, the wonderful woman I was seeking just happened to not live here...
Greg: No, you chose to find her in the FSU. And, we agree that there are a lot of reasons to make that choice. I sense that the reason you have chosen to misunderstand me is because you have refused to look at the folly of your logics in the post that I challenged and thus the only thing to do is talk about something else and find something wrong with the poster - wrong in the sense that he must be trying to justify something for himself.
You will never understand my post if that is the case, because you will choose to justify, justify, justify.
The whole point is you do not have to justify. There is no need to twist facts to support your choice to marry a woman from the FSU. The reason that you are trying to find something wrong with the poster or a hidden agenda of the poster that challenges you is because you feel the need to justify.
It is more likely than not that going to the FSU for a wife poses greater risk than staying at home. But, the reward merits the risk and you should not waste your time with trying to justify such. When people do this it makes them look like their head is in the sand. No wonder trolls find it so easy here. We give them all the ammunition they need.
My attempt is to not have my head in the sand as life can be too confusing as it is. For me, and maybe that does not work for you, it is better to acknowledge the increased risk, view the increased reward and make the choice instead of trying to rationalize away the risk. It is ok to take on more risk. The only answer for such is you think that you can more readily find a better women. Because in the final analysis is that not the bottom line? What is there to justify?
