Note to theSearch

[MarkInTx]

Greg,

It's been fun, but I can't answer you right now. Things have become busy here.

I think we both made our "points" over and over again, and the board would rather get on with other things, anyway.

I do think you pulled a slight "LP" by saying at the end that "I never criticized ... why do you feel the need to justify?"

When you make claims that guys are just getting women for looks and youth, and then rationalizing it later, I think that is a criticism.

And the reason that I feel "a need to justify" is simply because others feel a need to criticize. (Not just you, mind you... Because of misunderstandings and stereotypes, many feel a need to criticize...)

I think that to let someone say: "Your girl is only marrying you for your money..." and let that go unchecked is being unchivalrous, at best. Victoria is marrying me for more than just my money. (She doesn't even know how much money I have or what I make...) And to let a comment like that go is to ignore the tears she cried when I was leaving, and the strong emotions we both hold -- and I refuse to be untrue to her like that.

(In another day and age in Texas, a man might be challenged to a duel for a comment like that... ;-)

Likewise when someone says: "You are only marrying her because she's younger and prettier"... I think I need to say something to contradict that.

Now... when that person continues to ignore what I say, and throw ups smoke-screen arguments... then I just forget it.

No one is ever argued into changing their position, anyway. That is something I learned after thity years of arguing with people...

[RW]

... in response to Note to theSearch, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 1, 2002

"In another day and age in Texas, a man might be challenged to a duel for a comment like that... ;-)"

And correct me if I am wrong - how exactly it is chivalrous to discuss the personal affairs and other details involving your lady in public with the people you do not even know? What would be reaction on that in Texas in old good times?

That is just to get your point back to you

On the other note - if you are happy and she is the "sun of your life" - why do you need to justify anything?

as a good friend of ours told my husband when he was switching jobs - "in about fifty years when you will be sitting in a bar sipping cold bear, only then you would know if you made a right decision....."

peace,

Russian WIfe

[johnnydudeman]

... in response to Re: Note to theSearch, posted by RW on Jul 1, 2002

I don't think the phenomena of "sipping cold bear" has quite yet reached our thirsty shores, but I would love to see how this act is performed in Russia.  

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Note to theSearch, posted by RW on Jul 1, 2002

Well, actually, it is a hard quetsion to answer, since in the days of dueling, the internet wasn't very common... :-)

As far as "justifying" ... as I said, I only comment when people say things I find insulting.

Saying that she is only after my money, or that I am only after her youth... I find insulting.

So, I comment back.

But I know when to let it go, too...

[thesearch]

... in response to Note to theSearch, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 1, 2002

I am finished.

I give up.

Call your assumptions fact if that suits your purpose but, don't expect me to go along for the ride. I will call you on it every time.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Note to theSearch, posted by thesearch on Jul 1, 2002


Fact: She is no younger than any other woman I have dated recently

Fact: Although Victoria is beautiful, she is not (in my honest opinion -- and it is the only one that matters in this) more beautiful than the other women I dated so:

Fact: I am not merely marrying her for her beauty.

Fact: I am interested in her morals and life goals *as much* as anything else about her.

Fact: Letter correspondence can be an effective means of getting to know someone. Easily as good as going on several dates to see movies and concerts, or going to bars and clubs, and all of the wonderful ways of the casual American Lifestyle of getting to know someone.

Fact: My personal experience has shown that "getting to know someone" did not help my marriage (because people change).

Fact: She does not know how much money I make. She may have a sense that life will be better with me financially, but she can't know for certainly how it will impact her.

Fact: She is leaving her family, and she says she would not do that just for money

Fact: I believe her

These are just some of the facts that I have stated that you never addressed... For good reason, and that is that they are incontrovertible.

And, while I am at it, here are two more:

Fact: You are a person who doesn't know me, nor my situation, and yet smugly tell me that I have rationalized my whole relationship.

Fact: When I need your help "calling me on it" and helping me sort through my personal life, I will take a vow of celibacy and join a monastery instead.

How's that for facts???

[greg2]

... in response to Just the facts..., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 1, 2002

Wow-----------this has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am speechless..

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Gees..., posted by greg2 on Jul 1, 2002

This is starting to sound more and more like someone "else" on this board: Make stupid statements, and then when facts and logic prove you wrong, pretend that you never said such a thing.

Unfortunately, there are those pesky archives...

From your Post that started all of this:

*****************

"Mark what decision have the two people made? The guy has made a decision to find a woman who is more attractive and... younger than he can acquire at home. That is his decision...

... The priority is reflected in the woman he brings back.

What did the lady decide? I want to marry a man who lives in a country where life has more promise and ... she just wants a man...."

******************

Hmmm... sure sounds to me like you are basing your whole "argument" on the fact that men go to get younger, more attractive women than they can get at home. And the woman is simply marrying for a life of "more promise".

Which is what I took exception to, and which is what I have been trying to show you in a reasonable way was not true.

Every time I pointed out that your supposition was wrong, your response was: "See, if you justify your position, you prove my point..."

Which is simple silly nay-saying, and not really a serious debate, is it?

Meanwhile you played fast and free with logic yourself, in a way that no reasonable man could accept ("Why, no, Mark, all things being equal, two people living together do not know more about each other than two people not living together...") How absurd can you get???

A person who cannot accept such reasonable common ground has no desire to conduct an honest discussion.

Clearly, you simply want to tell us all that we are making rash decisions, and then rationalizing it.

Fine... you made your statement. I think everyone understands where you're coming from...

[thesearch]

... in response to My... don't you have a short memory,,,, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 2, 2002

Greg: I thought this was all over then you have to do it.

You go and quote me and yet I do not recognize it as something I said? It seems like you decided to make up a quote for me that is far enough from the original to not mean what I said.  
Or, if those are my words, I would bet that you omitted critical data that clarifies. Why do I say this?

Now, Mark since you quoted me, you surely can tell me where you got it.

Here it is:

Mark: Meanwhile you played fast and free with logic yourself, in a way that no reasonable man could accept ("Why, no, Mark, all things being equal, two people living together do not know more about each other than two people not living together...") How absurd can you get???

This is starting to sound more and more like someone "else" on this board: Make stupid statements, and then when facts and logic prove you wrong, pretend that you never said such a thing.

Greg: That is news to me. Again, point me to that quote.

Let me go over this one more time and lets see if you get it. The issue I have been harping on is about your assumptions regarding the study you quoted.

You made the comment that the divorce rate in one study was higher for people who lived together for one year prior to marriage. You took this further on your own to assume that surely these people must have known each other better than the other people in the study who had a lower divorce rate who did not live together for a year prior to marriage. Mark, were there tests to see if indeed people who lived together prior to the  marriage really knew each other better?

I pointed out to you that if this assumption of yours is true, then people who knew each other less than these people in the same study must have a lower divorce rate or you could not compare such. So, knowing someone more increases your risk of divorce and knowing them less increases your odds of not getting a divorce in so many words according to your premise. They have to go together. Now, you state that this is ridiculous. You are referring to your assumption not mine. For example, if AM who marry women from the FSU have a much lower divorce rate than AM who marry AW then it is safe to say that marrying a woman from the FSU increases your odds a not getting a divorce and thus marrying an AW increases your odds of getting a divorce when comparing the two choices/situations. They have to go together.

Mark, in this study do you know how long the people who DID NOT live together for at least a year prior to marriage dated or how long they knew each other?  For all you know they could have known each other on average longer than those that lived together. Do you know what it was about these people that prompted them to live together before getting married? What kind of people were they? They obviously made different choices. What was it about these people that led them to this choice of living together whereas the others who had a lower divorce rate chose not to do this? What was the age differences between these groups? Understanding who someone is, knowing them better, you have decided is based upon living in the same household in such a fashion that no other factor can enter into it and have any significance upon that fact. There are many factors that influence how quickly and well a person knows someone else. Living together is not the only factor. You can not pretend none of this does not exist.  

There is a lot that you do not know about all of these people = and probably in what you do not know lies the answer as to why their divorce rate was higher. There is no way you can conclude from this study as you have described it that these people knew each other better and even if they did know each other better which does seem logical, you still can not come to this conclusion without knowing the other factors that could influence divorce rate. Mark, would it be impossible that those who did not get divorced knew each other better than those that did have divorces?  

Now if you want to know the answer to this question we have been discussing, you have to look at thousands of successful and failed marriages, group them by age, ethnics, how many times they have been married before, religion, along with numerous other factors that can affect the survival rate of a marriage and also finally look at if they lived together prior to getting married and how long. But, before you do that you would have to conduct a study to prove or disprove that living together one year prior to marriage allows people to know each other better. You assume that the answer is yes because to you it is logical yet on the other hand you admit that it seems logical that people who know each other better should have a higher success rate with marriage but decide to reject that. So, if it is acceptable to go by what seems logical but not proven, you have conflicting data now don't you.

Mark, I do not know the answers to either so called logical assumption. I do not pretend to. You say you do and you choose to believe that knowing someone well does not improve divorce rate statistics because this supports what you are doing. You do not have empirical proof that you are correct about this issue but say you do. You have assumptions and opinions that is all. You may be correct, but there is no proof presented. That is fine, just do not go touting something as fact when such has not been determined.

You quote me:

Mark what decision have the two people made? The guy has made a decision to find a woman who is more attractive and... younger than he can acquire at home. That is his decision...

... The priority is reflected in the woman he brings back.

What did the lady decide? I want to marry a man who lives in a country where life has more promise and ... she just wants a man...."

******************

Hmmm... sure sounds to me like you are basing your whole "argument" on the fact that men go to get younger, more attractive women than they can get at home. And the woman is simply marrying for a life of "more promise".

Greg: Mark you are changing horses mid stream. Stay on topic. You are confusing issues here. These comments plus others pertaining were under the category of why going to the FSU is MORE like an arranged marriage then typical courting. It was not directed at YOU but about a commonality that I observe. You wanted to twist my words and said I said that this process was identical to an arranged marriage.  

Mark: Which is what I took exception to, and which is what I have been trying to show you in a reasonable way was not true.

Greg: I am not questioning you personally on this. From what you tell me, your FSU fiancee is no more attractive or younger than the AW you dated. If that is so, you did not do such. It is my observation that you then are in the minority in this. Hey, me personally, if I am going to bring back a wife from the FSU, she among other things more desirable relative to qualities of the heart and soul,  will be more attractive and younger than I would find in a woman of similar internal quality in my own back yard. I mean why not if it is doable. Unlike other guys here, I find that there are a lot of very nice AW with quality values. But this has nothing to do with it. I acknowledge my intentions and there is no way I am the lone ranger in this but with the majority of men I have observed. There are going to be guys who will come back with what they could attract relative to physical beauty in a woman at home. Unless I saw pictures of the AW you dated, I would not necessarily accept that your FSU lady is average to what you can date at home.

Mark: Every time I pointed out that your supposition was wrong, your response was: "See, if you justify your position, you prove my point..."

Which is simple silly nay-saying, and not really a serious debate, is it?

Greg: I honestly felt that way. I did not see it as nay-saying. I saw you as not responding to my challenges to prove your statement is fact and not assumption relative to knowing someone better and it not improving the odds of a successful marriage.

Mark: A person who cannot accept such reasonable common ground has no desire to conduct an honest discussion.

Greg: That is exactly my point. You are asking me to accept your assumption of what this study means as common ground. The problem is your conclusions to me are not logical - referring to me how you interpret a study that is not designed to determine if knowing each other longer helps with divorce rate as proving empirically such. That is the only problem as I see it.

Mark: Clearly, you simply want to tell us all that we are making rash decisions, and then rationalizing it.

Greg: I do not know about the word rash, decisions in a less than normal time frame - yes - but it goes with the territory for most who do this do not have the time or money to make multiple visits and spend a month with a lady on more than one occasion. Accept the process for what it is.

Mark: Fine... you made your statement. I think everyone understands where you're coming from...

Greg: BTW - I you and your lady make an excellent looking couple. You have done some things very right. You stayed within a reasonable age range etc. I wish you two the best. Once she is here let us know about the adjustment process that both of you will go through.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to For Mark only - others do not waste your..., posted by thesearch on Jul 2, 2002

Greg,

I find it impossible to believe that you got all of the way through Med school without learning how to do a little research...

OK... First, the post that I quoted:

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/show.php?russian/archive00173/messages/72330.txt

I edited it slightly, only because your sentence structure was confusing (I thought).

However, it was not pulled out of context. You said, exactly:

"The guy has made a decision to find a woman who is more attractive and not uncommonly younger than he can acquire at home. That is his decision."

And you also said (exactly):

"What did the lady decide, I want to marry a man who lives in a country where life has more promise "

Both are exact quotes, and both are what I took exception to. As far as I was concerned, that was the crux of our disagreement. (By the way, you have made several patronizing comments such as those. I just didn't bother going back to pull them all up...)

Now then, about the "Living together issue...

One MORE time, and then I am done with it!

First off, I will repeat again, if you stubbornly refuse to admit that someone who lives together knows each other better than someone who does not, then there is no hope for you.

Secondly, in regards to the "study"...

Actually, Greg, sorry to burst your bubble, but there have been SEVERAL studies, and all have shown the same thing.

Here's a tip: www.google.com. Use it sometime... it's amazing what you can find when you take the time to look. (I know, I know... you Doctors all think that the fact that you play God makes you automatically omniscient as well... but it doesn't really...)

Again... just in five minutes of looking:

“A study on premarital cohabitation conducted by researchers from Yale University, Columbia University, and the Institute for Resource Development at Westinghouse revealed that “the divorce rates of women who cohabit are nearly 80 percent higher than the rates of those who do not.”

In a recent study from the University of Michigan, researcher Pamela Smock discovered that 55 percent of cohabiting couples marry and 40 percent end the relationship within five years.  She also found that “premarital cohabitation tends to be associated with lower marital quality and increased risk of divorce.”  

“Standard studies show that those who first cohabit are at higher risk for divorce - up to 48% higher”
            -- USA Today 04/18/00

Again, I restate what I said earlier: It is a well known fact. Just because you don't know it, does not make it untrue. (Even if you ARE a doctor ;-)

I know the board likes to dump on Oscar because he and Dan got into it, but he is a certified counselor, and if you had read his post, he instantly backed up the fact that those who lived together first are more apt to be divorced. It is not some strange study done by Jerry Fallwell or something. It is a well known fact.

Now then… How you choose to apply it to our debate is entirely up to you.

I never claimed that knowing someone was a detriment to marriage. I was only saying that it obviously wasn't the key factor in marital bliss. If it were, (read that again.. I am saying that if GETTING TO KNOW SOMEONE IS THE KEY FACTOR) then it is reasonable to expect that couples who have lived together would have a lower divorce rate. (If you can't understand the logic of that, then I give up on you!)

Since that is not true -- based on study after study -- then the conclusion I draw is that getting to know someone is NOT the MOST IMPORTANT factor in predicting success in a marriage.

Let me go through this one more time for you:

I concede that dating a woman from another country does not give you as much opportunity to get to know her in a casual atmosphere. I even concede that it feels more "natural" to date someone "casually" for one simple reason: because that is what we are all used to.

But does that make it better?

I submit not. I have come to the belief that casual dating does not, in fact, lead you to make smarter choices in picking a mate.

If you wish to disagree, feel free. As I said, it is a belief.

I can tell you why I hold this belief. But, of course, whenever I do, you tell me that I prove your point, because it is all rationalization.

Funny how when anyone holds a belief contrary to yours, then their reasons become rationalization... But your reasons are all logic.

In reality, if anyone cares about that, I had come to this realization BEFORE I started looking abroad for a wife. In fact, if I had NOT come to this conclusion, I would NOT have ever looked in another country for a wife.

The realization that I needed to change the way I was searching for a wife is what led me to look in another country, not the other way around.

I came to this realization because of three factors: 1) my age, 2) the fact that I am a single father, and 3) my life experience.

I will discuss these in turn, though I know you will dismiss them as rationalization...

1) My age. When I was 22, I could afford to date for three years and see what happened. Now I cannot. Five girlfriends... three years each... you do the math. However, I noticed that as I dated these days, I was eliminating women as potential mates very quickly. Again, when I was 22... I didn't even care if the girl was marriage material. Did we have fun when we were together was all I cared about. But things change after you turn 30... and more so after you turn 35. Suddenly, you start asking yourself a whole different set of questions... And, incidentally, so do the women I am dating. Dating for fun is not as much an option. Especially when...

2) I am a single Dad. I refuse to run a parade of women in and out of my daughter's life. Also dating takes time. Time away from her. I am not going to waste that. Also, most women I dated were single mothers. So, they had the same concerns and issues.

3) My life experience. I have been married twice. First time, we dated for a long time, and knew each other quite well. The marriage lasted 9 years. It was pretty darn miserable most of that time. Second marriage, we knew we wanted to get married within three dates. I had four pretty good years with her. Our divorce was a very complicated thing, and it was mainly due to the fact that we had a blended family that never blended... we literally divorced -- in part -- for the children. But if it had just been the two of us, we would have stayed happily married forever.

Coming from that, I looked at the way I was dating. Sure it was more comfortable to go on dates, just to see what happened. But was that the best way?

I actually considered what I was looking for, first and foremost. What was the number one ingredient -- in my opinion from all that I knew -- to making a marriage work.

The answer, to me, was not "How well do I think I know her?"  But rather: Do we share common vision for the future, a common dream of a family, and a deep desire to make it work?

That, to me, is the most important thing.

After I have that... would I like to have time to get to know her? Sure. Would it be nice if we had both watched bugs bunny cartoons as kids and listened to the same music? You betcha.  But that stuff is secondary to me compared to the other qualifications. I had that in my last marriage, and it didn’t work. What I didn’t have was what I listed first: a common vision for the future, a common dream of a family, and a deep desire to make it work.

It was only AFTER I came to this conclusion that I was able to think seriously about going abroad to find a woman.

I can't answer for everyone. I can't answer for you.

But me, personally, I didn't read an agency ad until AFTER I came to this conclusion. I wasn't even looking for a woman in the FSU. I stumbled onto another newsgroup when I was doing a search for online dating agencies like Matchmaker.com.

I figured that if I could search and correspond with a woman, without dating her first, I could find out more about what she really believed down deep inside… And THEN we could date… Which is what ended up happening, its just she didn’t live in Dallas, as it turns out…

Again… it isn’t for everyone. I have no problem with you saying: I have a nice AW girlfriend, so I’m staying home…

Just don’t come on here and tell us that we all are simply robbing the cradle, and rationalizing it afterwards, because it simply isn’t true, and it is an insult to all of the many people on here who are in happy marriages.

[thesearch]

... in response to This is getting annoying... One (last) t..., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 3, 2002

I am sorry to hear about your second marriage. To have it end because of not being able to blend two families certainly would be frustrating as well as painful.

When it comes to picking the right person as a mate, there are so many variables involved. I do not think that there is any one way to help  insure your chances, it is a crap shoot because people are so unpredictable and their predictability changes with the passing of time.

Although I think, that knowing someone better is one of the better ways to know if you are compatible it does not work for many people plain and simple.. Most likely we do not disagree on as much as you might think. I still however do not think you can determine from that study that knowing each other more does not improve your odds of avoiding a divorce. That may be correct - I just do not get that from that study - but lets drop that as it is clear we will never agree on this.

I think that the values, ethics of those involved and how they were raised can be as important as anything else but no guarantee there either..

I think that issues of the heart are not about logics and that it is possible for two people to meet and intuitively know that they are meant for each other and nothing more is needed. Sometimes the senses can discover truth that logics can not even come close to revealing. Couples who experience this can be married in a week and end up celebrating their 50th down the road.

This all can happen for guys going to the FSU as easily as anywhere else. For me, I choose to go with my gut feelings, instincts and my heart over logics. If I meet a woman from the FSU where everything seems right, I am not going to be concerned about not being able to get to know her a well as I would prefer because it is just not going to happen. I will not be allowed to get to know her better even though I think that this is very important.  

The two challenges as I see it are women wanting a way out desperately enough that they marry a guy they would not otherwise marry - thus leading the guy on so to speak. A guy just has to figure this out if such is the case. A woman in love acts a certain way. Mark, from what you have written, your fiancee is either very much in love or a great actress. I tend to pick the former from your posts.

The other problem is the availability of women who are younger than perhaps is best to consider. I know larger age differences work for some couples but, it is not going to work in the long run for everyone. I know that this is a challenge for myself.

Good luck to you - no hard feelings.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to The end to the Hatfield's and the McCoy'..., posted by thesearch on Jul 3, 2002

Greg,

No hard feelings at all.

Part of the problem with the internet is that you can't see or hear inflection. And many things are taken out of context.... or you may hear an insult where there is none... or what have you...

Over beers, we could have settled this in five minutes (twenty if the barkeep was slow...)

One thing you said reminds me of something: "your fiancee is either very much in love or a great actress..."

yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel about it.

Someone asked me: "What if she is just taking you for a ride, and she disappears in two years, and you pay all of that money to get her over here, and then she just goes away?"

And I said: "Hey, then it would be worth it just to have spent two years with the greatest actress of our generation!"

Seriously, I have learned to hold onto the good things in life, and let go of the bad.

My second marriage ended in a divorce. That was painful. But I had four really happy years on the balance, and I like to remember those.

My first marriage didn't have as many happy times... but I have my daughter because of it, so I wouldn't trade that for the world, either.

Life is about living, and experiencing.

As I said before: The God that gave me my capacity to love, also made my heart so that it can heal.

Or as the song (about two guys in a bar discussing life) put it:

"..the things we're calling heartache
Hell, they're hardly worth our time
We b!tch about a dollar
When there's those without a dime.
And as he ordered one last round
He said I guess we can't complain
God made life a gamble
And we're still in the game..."

[greg2]

... in response to Gees..., posted by greg2 on Jul 1, 2002

My god, I am surrounded by insanity

[LP]

... in response to Help LP, posted by greg2 on Jul 2, 2002

..You'll never get through to this guy. He fits the "an FSU girl will solve all my problems" profile too well to even attempt a rational exchange:

1) Divorced twice and no doubt blames the previous wives for both failures. Likely thinks he had little to do with them.

2) Also thought he was in love with both of *them* when he married and thought each of *them* was The One. Thought those marriages would last forever too, as he no doubt believes this one will.

3) In a constant state of denial about even the most innocent of truths. Can't accept the obvious, thinks with his small head, and is overly emotional to the point where he'll rationalize anything.

4) Is clearly dependant on another person for his happiness, a very bad way to live.

5) He is in sales, for cryin out loud. Nuff said.

I could go on and on but just forget him. He's simply another lost soul caught up in the FSU cult mentality who is unable to look in the mirror. Besides, its his show, let him learn the hard way.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Help LP, posted by greg2 on Jul 2, 2002

You are simply sliding down a slippery slope of your own making...