Russian women and religion

[NK]

... in response to Religion and D i v o r c e...   status??, posted by jj on Feb 16, 2002

Catholics get divorced too. And I've known a few Catholic women who even had abortions.

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Re: The truth is..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

The are a lot Phillipino women that are very religious.  They are mostly Catholic but I think they would adapt to another faith.  There do seem to be a few religious Russian women but not many.  

I have never heard of the Wesleyan sect?  I have only seen Moravians in North Carolina.

[BarryM]

... in response to I think NK is right, posted by BubbaGump on Feb 16, 2002

nt

[Lynn]

... in response to John Wesley - Wesleyan - Methodist- Chur..., posted by BarryM on Feb 16, 2002

John Wesley was a Methodist circuit minister until he started his own ministry due to his teachings going against the grain of the Methodist church or so I understand. Wesleyans are more or less in the middle between Methodist and Baptist. In the Methodist church, when you join, you actually pledge allegance to the Catholic church----if you don't believe it do a little checking. The Wesleyans very active in central NC.

[WmGo]

... in response to Actually..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

Lynn,

Methodists do not claim *any* allegiance to Rome. Their doctrine is virtually identical to Baptist: Grace alone, Word alone, Faith alone, Doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers, Baptism and Lord's Supper symbolic. All in stark contrast to the Roman Church.

Regards!

WmGo

P.S. Their are many real Christians in FSU. A minority, but they are their. And the Spiritual revival is on!

[Lynn]

... in response to Re:Methodists, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

I have read the text with the reference to pledging allegence to the Catholic church with my own eyes, I was quite supprised myself.
Yes I know quite a bit about the revival going on in the FSU, in fact our Easter program at my church is supposed to include a group of missionaries who are working in the FSU.

[WmGo]

... in response to Re: Re:Methodists, posted by Lynn on Feb 17, 2002

Lynn,

Do you happen to recall where this pledge is found? For research purposes I am interested. I have attended dozens of UMC services over the years and have never seen or heard it.

Thanks!

WmGO

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: Re:Methodists, posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

I do not recall exactly being that it has been five or six years ago, so I called a friend of mine and he is going to get me a copy or e-mail it to me. I was very surprised the first time I heard it and I'm willing to bet that a lot of regular attendees of Methodist churches have never noticed it either. My friend has a little more time on his hands than I do at the moment and he said he would be glad to do the research. I will e-mail you what he sends me if you will send me your address.

Lynn

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:Methodists, posted by Lynn on Feb 18, 2002

I'm surprised you haven't recognized it. Many protestant churches recite it at services. The one below is the original unaltered translation(Latin) from the First Ecumenical Council in Nicea in the year 325 and the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in the year 381.

When the Pope of Rome altered this Creed and declared a Papal monarchy over all of the Bishops, it led to the great schism.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

-blm

[WmGo]

... in response to It is called the Nicene Creed., posted by BarryM on Feb 18, 2002

Yes! You may recall that I mentioned the Nicene and the Apostles' Creed in one of my posts on the religion subject the other day. I often recite them  minus the reference to the "Catholic" church.

In some Protestant liturgies that contain these creeds the word "Catholic" will appear in either italics or quotes with a footnote that that denomination does not subscribe to the notion of Catholic hierarchy or authority. When members of such churches recite the creed they are normally conscious of the fact that that they are not acknowledging allegiance to Rome. Other liturgies substitute "Holy Christian Church" in the place of the "Catholic" reference.

Both scenarios are based on the Scriptures that teach that "the church" is the body of believers, not a physical structure or hierarchy.

Thanks for posting the Creed.

WmGO

P.S. Lynn the Methodists were an offspring of the Anglican Church so I am fairly confident that it was a Nicene and/or Apostles Creed recitation where the liturgy book was not properly edited to address the Rome issue.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Nicene Creed., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

You are probably right about the "Creed". It's just that in the Methodist church that I once attended, as a youngster, I do not recall hearing it until five or six years ago. I understand that most churches in larger cities have a more regimented church service with recitations of such done fairly often if not every service. I personally do not like the regimented services and opt for the more down to earth services without all the pomp and circumstance. Apparently I'm not the only one with these feelings, the church that I became a member of about four years ago has grown over 10 fold in the last six or seven years and is the fastest growing church in it's denomination is the district.

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: Nicene Creed., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

Catholic means whole, complete, lacking nothing. The reference to a "catholic church" means a complete or whole church. It is different than the "Roman Catholic Church". The use of the Nicene Creed with reference to "catholic" is not incorrect.

From the OCA website:

... In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church ...
Church as a word means those called as a particular people to perform a particular task. The Christian Church is the assembly of God's chosen people called to keep his word and to do his will and his work in the world and in the heavenly kingdom.

In the Scriptures the Church is called the Body of Christ (Rom 12; 1 Cor 10, 12; Col 1) and the Bride of Christ (Eph 5; Rev 21). It is likened as well to God's living Temple (Eph 2; 1 Pet 2) and is called "the pillar and bulwark of Truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

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One Church
The Church is one because God is one, and because Christ and the Holy Spirit are one. There can only be one Church and not many. And this one Church, because its unity depends on God, Christ, and the Spirit, may never be broken. Thus, according to Orthodox doctrine, the Church is indivisible; men may be in it or out of it, but they may not divide it.

According to Orthodox teaching, the unity of the Church is man's free unity in the truth and love of God. Such unity is not brought about or established by any human authority or juridical power, but by God alone. To the extent that men are in the truth and love of God, they are members of His Church.

Orthodox Christians believe that in the historical Orthodox Church there exists the full possibility of participating totally in the Church of God, and that only sins and false human choices (heresies) put men outside of this unity. In non-Orthodox Christian groups the Orthodox claim that there are certain formal obstacles, varying in different groups, which, if accepted and followed by men, will prevent their perfect unity with God and will thus destroy the genuine unity of the Church (e.g., the papacy in the Roman Church).

Within the unity of the Church man is what he is created to be and can grow for eternity in divine life in communion with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit. The unity of the Church is not broken by time or space and is not limited merely to those alive upon the earth. The unity of the Church is the unity of the Blessed Trinity and of all of those who live with God: the holy angels, the righteous dead, and those who live upon the earth according to the commandments of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Holy Church
The Church is holy because God is holy, and because Christ and the Holy Spirit are holy. The holiness of the Church comes from God. The members of the Church are holy to the extent that they live in communion with God.

Within the earthly Church, people participate in God's holiness. Sin and error separate them from this divine holiness as it does from the divine unity. Thus, the earthly members and institutions of the Church cannot be identified as such with the Church as holy.

The faith and life of the Church on earth is expressed in its doctrines, sacraments, scriptures, services, and saints which maintain the Church's essential unity, and which can certainly be affirmed as "holy" because of God's presence and action in them.

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Catholic Church
The Church is also catholic because of its relation to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The word catholic means full, complete, whole, with nothing lacking. God alone is full and total reality; in God alone is there nothing lacking.

Sometimes the catholicity of the Church is understood in terms of the Church's universality throughout time and space. While it is true that the Church is universal -- for all men at all times and in all places -- this universality is not the real meaning of the term "catholic" when it is used to define the Church. The term "catholic" as originally used to define the Church (as early as the first decades of the second century) was a definition of quality rather than quantity. Calling the Church catholic means to define how it is, namely, full and complete, all-embracing, and with nothing lacking.

Even before the Church was spread over the world, it was defined as catholic. The original Jerusalem Church of the apostles, or the early city-churches of Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, or Rome, were catholic. These churches were catholic -- as is each and every Orthodox church today -- because nothing essential was lacking for them to be the genuine Church of Christ. God Himself is fully revealed and present in each church through Christ and the Holy Spirit, acting in the local community of believers with its apostolic doctrine, ministry (hierarchy), and sacraments, thus requiring nothing to be added to it in order for it to participate fully in the Kingdom of God.

To believe in the Church as catholic, therefore, is to express the conviction that the fullness of God is present in the Church and that nothing of the "abundant life" that Christ gives to the world in the Spirit is lacking to it (Jn 10:10). It is to confess exactly that the Church is indeed "the fullness of him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23; also Col 2:10).

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Apostolic Church
The word apostolic describes that which has a mission, that which has "been sent" to accomplish a task.

Christ and the Holy Spirit are both "apostolic" because both have been sent by the Father to the World. It is not only repeated in the Scripture on numerous occasions how Christ has been sent by the Father, and the Spirit sent through Christ from the Father, but it also has been recorded explicitly that Christ is "the apostle ... of our confession" (Heb 3:1).

As Christ was sent from God, so Christ Himself chose and sent His apostles. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you ... receive ye the Holy Spirit," the risen Christ says to His disciples. Thus, the apostles go out to the world, becoming the first foundation of the Christian Church.

In this sense, then, the Church is called apostolic: first, as it is built upon Christ and the Holy Spirit sent from God and upon those apostles who were sent by Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit; and secondly, as the Church in its earthly members is itself sent by God to bear witness to His Kingdom, to keep His word and to do His will and His works in this world.

Orthodox Christians believe in the Church as they believe in God and Christ and the Holy Spirit. Faith in the Church is part of the creedal statement of Christian believers. The Church is herself an object of faith as the divine reality of the Kingdom of God given to men by Christ and the Holy Spirit; the divine community founded by Christ against which "the gates of hell shall not prevail" (Mt 16:18).

The Church, and faith in the Church, is an essential element of Christian doctrine and life. Without the Church as a divine, mystical, sacramental, and spiritual reality, in the midst of the fallen and sinful world there can be no full and perfect communion with God. The Church is God's gift to the world. It is the gift of salvation, of knowledge and enlightenment, of the forgiveness of sins, of the victory over darkness and death. It is the gift of communion with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. This gift is given totally, once and for all, with no reservations on God's part. It remains forever, until the close of the ages: invincible and indestructible. Men may sin and fight against the Church, believers may fall away and be separated from the Church, but the Church itself, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15) remains forever.

... [God] has put all things under His [Christ's] feet and has made Him the head over all things for the Church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
... for through Him we ... have access in one Spirit, to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow-citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

... Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that he might sanctify her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present the Church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish ... This is a Great Mystery ... Christ and the Church ... (Eph 1:21-23; 2:19-22; 5:25-32).

-blm

[WmGo]

... in response to The word "catholic" is used co..., posted by BarryM on Feb 18, 2002

Excellent post Barry,

I have read from the Orthodox web site the portions that you transferred over and agree and believe in the portions that you posted (with the one caveat below).

I understand that the term "catholic" means universal and whole church (body of Christ, Bride of Christ, etc.) and from *that* perspective it *is* doctrinally correct. But for Protestants, once the "c" in "catholic" is capitalized we think of the Roman Church and, knowing that the original word refers to the Body and, also knowing the RCC's misuse of the word to refer to itself as a physical hierachacal organization of men, we freak out (rightfully) and prefer to just say "Holy Christian Church" - which your post so accurately defines (Body/Bride of Christ - the Believers).

If you read carefully the latter part of the Orthodox doctrine that you copied and pasted ("faith in the Church"), you will see where a person could reasonably begin to think that at that point the "Church" is beginning to change from the Biblical definition (Body of Believers, Bride of Christ, etc.) to a particular denomination. This is not perfectly clear, but you can understand the caution that the Protestant feels. The allegiance is to be to Christ and not any denomination - or man, or group of men however organized. After all , we have His Word so we don't have to rely on what man says, we can read it for ourselves. That way, if a man or a group of men say something that is different from the Scriptures we know which one is right.

Again good post.

WmGO

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: The word "catholic" is use..., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

protestants do not know what their particular denomination stands for doctrinally. I don't think I know anyone who knows the difference between a Presbytarian and an Episcopalian, a Baptist and a Methodist, a Pentacostal and an Evangelical, etc. They think they're all the same as long as they're not Roman Catholic, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witnesses. I've known people to switch denominations just because a church is closer. They never knew the difference between the two and no one in the church ever explained it to them.

-blm

[WmGo]

... in response to It's funny how many..., posted by BarryM on Feb 19, 2002

it's true