Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts)

[Oatmeal]

Hello all,

The following is a true story, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

There is a man who was married to a Russian woman for many years (about 8 or 9 years)  The marriage was not really all that great from the start but the man married this lady anyway.  I think they would have been divorce earlier but they had a tour company together and they did not want to break up the business so you might say they had a marriage of convenience.

So the man often went to Russia and Ukraine and did a lot of partying when he went.  His so called wife actually hooked up with a man who was working for her husband in the tour company and recently practically stole the business from him while he was away.  

Actually I felt a bit sorry for the man because he was an older man (maybe in his 60's) and I think he had been very lonely for most of his life.  I feel his problem was that he doesn't know how to make a good choice in women and he likes to go after the young hotties or maybe ladies that are way out of his league (I can't blame him though, since this is also in my own nature)  

So as of the past year he had been looking for a new lady and was going to finally get a divorce from his wife.  He found one girl of 26 years old in Russia that he liked a lot and was going to bring her here on a K-1 visa to get married when his divorce was finalized.  

So this man went to meet this 26 year old girl for a second time in Russia but this second meeting went very badly and he felt she was a real scammer and acted very differently from his first meeting with her.  He said she was just very mean spirited and so.

In my most recent conversation with him a few days ago he said he felt he was just too old and he would not consider to marry anyone else yet alone a Russian woman.  I feel he has just been burned out but again I feel that it is simply a result of bad choices.  

Even the most experienced traveller can be fooled if his choices are still bad or he is inclined to select a certain type of girl.  But it still blows me away that a man with so much time and experience with these women can be burned in such a way.

Luckily, I don't have to deal with this issue myself as I have found a wonderful and sincere lady.

[juio99]

... in response to Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts..., posted by Oatmeal on Feb 8, 2002

There are a lot of great gals in FSU who are in their 40s, so why can't this guy just look at those ladies?

JR

[KenC]

... in response to Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts..., posted by Oatmeal on Feb 8, 2002

Jim,
I have a different point of view of your sad story.  The guy didn't "get burned".  He just found out that the girl was not for him.  It is part of a natural selection process.  I dated a lot of AW while I was single.  Just because I didn't marry them, didn't make it a scam, a burn or even make them bad women.  I always thought that there were two types of daters: ones that do it for recreation and the others that are looking for their future mate.  I was always in the second catagory.  LP, for example, would be in the first.  (No slam)  Dating is a natural process that gets out of whack because of the distance between us and Russia.  No one would think twice if a couple didn't continue to date after 3 or 4 or 5 dates here.  The answer one would give to why you were not together with your former dating partner would be. "Things just didn't click between us".  Now if she were Russian it would be, "She scammed me!"
KenC

[LP]

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

...It *is* a slam.  My current situation does not support that theory either. You fail to recall my history so here it is again:

1975 to 1977: married, she ended it.
1977 to 1989: Lived together, one woman, I ended it.
1989 to 1994: Lived together, one woman, she ended it.
1994 to 1999: Lived together, one woman, I ended it.
1999 to 2001: searching. (is this the "recreation" you speak of?)
Current status: lol, thats my little secret.

Each of these women were younger than the previous one and that pretty much precluded my marrying them. I'd also point out that two of my chosen careers paths were/are infamous for destroying relationships. Nor would I have traded this history for time with only one woman. I was younger, I was in control, and those were my choices and I would do it again in a second. It sure beats the typical path many take, one long marraige ending in divorce, with all the trauma that entails.

Just because I didn't marry them doesn't mean it was "recreational". As I've pointed out before, no amount of love will turn back the clock and marrying someone much younger than me introduces practical issues that can't be resolved. I know this from experience dealing with youngsters, experience you lack. In fact, I find it an extremely selfish thing to do to the younger mate as it is living on borrowed time and she will one day pay a heavy price, in many different fashions, assuming it lasts at all.

Besides, why would I marry them if I had all the benefits? I'll tell you, it sure was a blessing in the end, when we simply parted ways, two of them my doing. I'm danm glad I didn't because nothing lasts forever, a fact many here (including you) may have to one day face. Your one such "experience" seems to preclude you from considering such a possibility, I know better. Marrying any of my women would not have been a factor in the relationship's survival, on the contrary, it would have made the endings much worse. I know I'm far better off in both a financial and emotional sense from this history.

As I've reminded you before, didn't you feel your first marriage would last forever the day you consumated it? How about three years later?  You have no idea what will happen. People change don't they? Didn't your first wife? See my point? When you get past ten years or so I'll be impressed, until then your "success" is an illusion shared by all "recently" married couples/established relationships. As I recall, your first marraige lasted far longer than this and yet failed. I'm not saying one should live in fear of marriage. I simply choose to wait for many years before I even considered marriage as I had all the benefits without the risks and I'm darn glad I did. I say again, there was nothing "recreational" about those relationships.

I have never adopted a playboy attitude to dating at all. I'll admit that a byproduct of my employment has allowed me to have lots of fun during the last few years and I certainly have not had to go to the FSU for "recreational" dating. I've enjoyed it tremendously but it certainly wasn't only for fun. For me every date, here and abroad, was part of searching for a long term mate, as is typical of many guys. Maybe marriage wasn't part of the *immediate* plan (especially with FSU girls) but I dispute that puts me in a "recreational" mode. lol, I assure you that living with different women for many years (and raising their children in one case) is not recreational. Other than being forced to marry in this latest game, which I deeply resent (not marriage but the government setting a time limit for it), it was all the same to me.

Like many men who are involved in this endeavor, you spent a long time with a woman in one marriage. That limited your experience in living with and watching how people change. One thing I've noticed about guys married for a long time and then divorced is they can't wait to get married again, even if the previous one was somewhat bad. They are not comfortable alone and never give themselves the time to adapt to it, they rush out and reenter the dating game to recoup an enviornment they are "used" to. (The general good stuff about having someone around, not the bad stuff from a particular previous spouse.)

In other words, I've seldom met a divorced guy (after a lenthy marriage) who wasn't fairly motivated to marry again before the pain totally wore off. Nothing wrong with that but its too bad they don't wait a bit to readjust to a single life. Single may suck in *some* ways but the adaptation allows a search with a clearer perpsective and without the internal stresses that often drive them to make bad decisions. (lol, no slam)

Its this that seperated me from many here. I was not in a hurry to return, I had no need, and thats why I took so long to develop what I now have. Even then, I realize that at this point its all a crap shoot because I've been here before. You be a romantic guy Ken, good for you. Me too, I just don't let it cloud my undertsanding of reality. Since romance does not power a relationship over the long haul, I hope you one day realize how limiting a romantic perspective can really be.

Ken, you are a gentleman and I wish I had some of your diplomacy but, alas, I do not. Keeping that in mind, I'm amused by your "flock" here. All I see so far is a guy with one longterm failed marriage who went abroad and found a young girl who he's been with for a few years. (lol, using that definition, I've got you *way* beat.) What you have so far regarding FSU woman is pretty easy to accomplish, guys do it all the time. It doesn't take rocket science to over and find a young girl, God knows how many I've turned down, nor does it take much to get to three years. Hell, I've got you beat there *wthout* marrying any of them.

No offense, but big deal. You haven't done anything much at all that others couldn't easily do and thats why I find it a bit amusing that so many here aspire to your "success". Whats really interesting is that the ones with the right perspective *know* better than to duplicate it. They know its much more difficult than what you've done.

Seriously, I mean no offense, its just the way I communicate. I clearly view many things differently than others. (For example I'm baffled by the propensity of people to post stories and photos of their "win" for all the world to see. I sincerely do not understand this, one's business should be one's own. Besides, it smacks of the trophy syndrome, infers a prior sense of desperation and lack of confidence and opens one up to electronic mischief. I did it once and learned never to do it again.)

lol, no slam.

[KenC]

... in response to Hmmm....., posted by LP on Feb 8, 2002

LP,
Very good post with a lot of "truths".  Maybe "recreational" was a poor choice of words on my part, but I sincerely didn't intend it as a slam to you.  How would you describe a man that says he is looking for a lifetime mate on one hand and yet is so proud of his past "successes" without marriages?  You wear your past relationships with younger women as a badge of honor to your ego.  What is the difference between your boasts of past "successes" with younger women and the guys you mention that post photos of their trophies"?  The photo?

You do make a valid point about men jumping into this FSU thing shortly after a divorce.  There was one guy on here a few months back that was going to Russia and his divorce wasn't even final.  Give me a break.  I advised the guy to wait until he got his head together.  FYI, there was 5 years between my divorce and my marriage to Lena.  During that time I too dated a lot of younger women.  Granted, not quite as young as Lena.  As for my first marriage being a "failure", it may be by definition because it ended in divorce, but that doesn't make the entire time a waste.  I raised two great kids during that marriage, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.  

You are again correct that anyone can bring back a Russian hottie and marry her.  No big deal to accomplishing that.  The real trick is to find someone that you love and loves you back.  Please note that there is no "Ken & Lena" website and that I don't normally send out photos of my "trophy".  (I have shared a photo or two with a few guys I was more comfortable with here)  I don't brag endlessly about how young or beautiful Lena is, I do tend to brag about the love we have found with each other though.  I won't apologize for that.  There is no way to verify what the future will hold for us, but I wouldn't bet against us.
KenC
ps (I didn't take your post as a slam in any way.  You brought up some very valid points)

[LP]

... in response to Re: Hmmm....., posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

....Thanks for not taking it the wrong way. I wasn't saying what you did was wrong or that it wasn't right for you.

I was simply saying why I didn't do as you did and was amused at the corelation between your experience and the many others who seem to want to duplicate it. It only reinforces the public perception about MOB in some ways that men go to the FSU for young women they cannot get here. (Thats nonsense btw, most men can date much younger women here if they just have the confidence to try it.)

I don't wear my relationships with younger women as a badge of honor, my meaning was that these experiences have left me with a different outlook on the subject compared to your's. I'm not "proud" of these relationships one way or the other, thats just the way it worked out. It s not intended to be boasting. I'm only pointing out that relationships with younger women aren't all they're cracked up to be as I have lots of experience in that area. My relationship history has been somewhat unique compared to most and I'm offering that up for what it's worth.

Two of these women pursued me. I did not want to get involved with them, but even I sometimes don't learn from my past mistakes. It's not ego, it actually gets old dealing with it sometimes. The grass is always greener, and all that.

You are correct in that I meant your marriage was a failure in definition only. I didn't mean to imply it was a waste anymore than "mine" were. Had I choosen to countine the enviornment that I'm used to (living togethor unmarried), I would not consider it any different than a marriage. Remember, it's pretty much all I've known, the marriage thing is new to me and I was a bit uncomfortable with it.

Yes, I know you don't exhibit the trophy thing, I was just pointing out another example of how I view things differently than the majority. Again, I'm not saying to do so is wrong, I'm saying I personally don't understand the motivation. Btw, I've seen your photos even though you didn't send them to me, once out there you have no control and thats my point. lol, Lena is very pretty and you clearly look a charmer. What happened to her posting? lol, I think we all would like to hear "her side" of your adventure togethor.

As for betting against you? Sorry, I do. We will never agree that you are living on borrowed time. Maybe not divorce but there are other issues you simply can't escape or have control over. I hope the value you receive will be worth the tramua in the end. Again, no offense, but I would not want to be in your future shoes. lol, I'll admit its a pretty good deal at the present time though isn't it?.

Again, thanks for understanding my bluntness as only my attempts to effectively communicate my opinions and not as a slam. Tact is not one of my strong points but there is no malice behind them and very technical people are often cursed with this weakness. Hey, at least I'm aware of it.

[BarryM]

... in response to Ken...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

You're right. About the time KenC hits the age of 70, there may be some problems. It's genetic. Look at James Doohan(Scotty of Star Trek), he fathered a kid at 90. But what the hell. Have fun and a good life while you can.

-blm

[KenC]

... in response to Yep... If you're betting on old age and ..., posted by BarryM on Feb 9, 2002

n/t

[LP]

... in response to I'll take 23 years of happiness-anytime ..., posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

...when I say I consider it somewhat selfish.

What then? What about her? She'll be what, around 50?

Alone and in pain, having to start all over again when it won't be so easy. Or worse, forced to spend her golden years alone, when she will need you most.

Ask any couple the best part of their long relationship and they'll tell you it's growing old together. Sure, you're both growing older together now, but thats not what I mean.

And this is assuming you maintain your health up to the end. Ever had to care for a dying parent? A long painful process that culminates in even more trauma, it's not pleasant.

Imagine how that will be with a spouse. And all this doesn't even address the other practical issues
involved with a large age spread. There will likely be problems even before that, when you're pushing 65 or so and she's mid 40's. Think about the possible problems, it boggles the mind.

What about children? Is she gonna forgo them for you? If she's like most women (who want them) and does so, you will have robbed her of the experience you so treasured, the one you had before. And if she does have them they will be be college aged when you are what, 70?

Of course, she seems willing to accept this, or a least ignore it. After all, it's years away and who knows what'll happen. She's young and the young look at the future as light years away. But if you plan on sticking it out to the end you'd better be prepared, if thats even possible, for the outcome.

She was depending on your age and experience to have the wisdom to see what she could not. In your zest to have a beautiful young wife, you didn't feel you let her down? This doesn't strike you as selfish?

Borrowed time I tell ya, borrowed from her.

Or stolen, you decide.

Just food for thought.

[KenC]

... in response to Thats what I mean...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

LP,
You have to understand that we have discused these areas many many times.  Our plan is for Lena to have a life "after Ken".  I would be remiss in my responsiblities to the woman I love if I didn't have a plan for this.  I am sorry that the rest is just too personal to share with others.  Just know that you have not brought up any new subjects.

The "zest for a young wife" comment is a little out of line though.  As I have said many times here, I didn't go shopping for a wife in Russia (young or otherwise), things just happened.  FWIW, the only negative I found in Lena was that she was her age.  I didn't "steal" anything from her either, except maybe her heart.  Thanks for your point of view, it is a valid one.
KenC

[LP]

... in response to you ask a lot of good questions, posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

....general comment Ken, using your situation only as an example. The post was directed at people who may not have your foresight.

Regardless of your planning, it will still be traumatic, but I suppose thats the tradeoff for the years spent together.

Thanx for the perspective.

[BarryM]

... in response to Thats what I mean...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

I think KenC is doing just fine with Lena. She knows what she is in for. You have a very narrow, cynical, and sad view of the world, but the world doesn't revolve around you and your views. Reality goes on despite your skewed view of it. You can't perceive what is in the minds of others, especially KenC and Lena. Your life is yours, and I don't think the way you are living is right, but how do I know what you think or really how you live. What you post here is quite a cynical and harsh criticism of people who are happy. That is not right. They have already made their decision about life. You should be happy for them and you should wish for a long prosperous life for them.

-blm

[LP]

... in response to You can't steal what is given to you..., posted by BarryM on Feb 9, 2002

.....Barry. My view is logical. The reality is that what I wrote about will most likely happen in one form or another as they have no control over it. For you to dispute that shows you are the one who is lacking in the perception of reality.

Like you, my perception *is* my reality, and my world *does* revolve around it. I (and you, in your case) wouldn't have it any other way. Besides, my "view" of the world is far more complex than I've ever presented here.

It is not my intention to critsize anyone, only to cause people to consider all the ramifications of their actions and to make them think beyond the present. My post was using Ken as an example but was directed at those who haven't made that same choice as yet.

I do wish Ken and Lena a long and happy life, they have made the commitment and have accepted whatever price they'll end up paying. Not my place to offer any opinions on what they should do. Of course they are "doing fine".....now. I wasn't speaking of now, was I?

As for narrowminded, you qualify for that in a big way. There are none so narrowminded as those blinded by faith. Religous zealots are *the* definition of narrowminded and  have resulted in 98% of the world's misery throughout history.

As for living my life "right", it's been darn good and only because I'm in charge of it using logic and intelligence to achieve my goals, not wandering lost and forlorn hoping something will happen to change it. How bout you? In charge are ye? By narrowing your choices down to practically nothing? By demanding your mate share *your* belief and value systems? If anyone here should be concerned about time, its you.

Your method is to use emotion and oogabooga. You have, and will continue to, be here a very long time. I'm done and couldn't be more tickled. If I was such a bad guy that wouldn't have happened, nor would I be in the other positions I'm in today. How does your faith explain that? lol, Good things happen to bad people?

Take a tip from me: Worry about changing your *own* life as much as you worry about others and you'll do much better with it.

[greg2]

... in response to Ya got it all wrong....., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

- just realistic - perhaps the truth sometimes seems cynical

[BarryM]

... in response to Ya got it all wrong....., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

Hey, you have to live your own life. It's not up to me to tell you how to live. Logic and reason is quite a wonderful gift from God. If you think about it, it is all logic and reason, just that there are things beyond our understanding. It is a neverending chase. The more humanistic science tries to prove that nature is by random chance, the more evidence that nature is divinely inspired.

-blm