Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts)

[WmGo]

... in response to I have it right... believe it or not..., posted by BarryM on Feb 10, 2002

Good post!

[tim360z]

... in response to Ken...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

about younger women.  Almost a year ago I first wrote a letter to a girl in Ukraine who was 5 years younger than my self-imposed limit.  The only reason I wrote to her was I simply had an impression or intuition that this was a very high quality girl,  of course I could have been wrong on that.  She was good looking,  but not a knockout in the photo.  Our communication began and proceeded very slowly because we both have very busy lives.  After the first 4-5 letters I knew I was talking to a very deep thinking girl with a very high intellect and of excellent character.  We never got into all that lovey stuff---just a great communication of each others lives and thoughts.  I realized she was such a nice girl,  but too young.  I told her this and asked if we could continue to know each other,  but as friends.  She agreed to be friends and she was sorry that I considered her to be too young and too inexperienced for a relationship.  Over time I realized we had just an incredible communication on everything...just incredible and somewhat unexpected on my part.  And of course we are very warm in this friendship.  It is to me quite unexpected.  I don't know just where this will go to in the future...but,  now I would not be very surprised to find that we are together.  I nearly scrathed her off,  because of her age.  And then I would have missed this great friendship.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Hhhmm! a point in point, posted by tim360z on Feb 9, 2002

Was that a typo? Or do you think a woman five years younger than you is too young?

I gotta tell you... I think five years is nothing.

My dad was 6 years older than my mother. I was 5 years older than my first wife. I was 8 years older than my last girlfriend, 7 than the one before that, and 11 the one before that  -- these were ALL AWs...

I have NEVER felt old in any of these relationships. (The one who was 11 years younger took regular naps, and was always wanting to slow down. Maybe she needed more iron in her diet?)

Anyway... Five years? Are you kidding me? If that is the only thing holding you back from committing to a wonderful woman with character and integrity...

Sheesh man... what do you want: A woman who shares your same birthday???

[tim360z]

... in response to Because of FIVE years?, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 10, 2002

Yeah Mark,

  OIC.  With any girl it is so easy to paint these borders...sorta like a self-imposed limitation based on various ideas stormin' around in the brain.  One can always be unexpectedly and pleasantly surprised by reality.  Thats all I was trying to post here.  When you begin to know a very remarkable girl---ya gotta throw all those convenient misconceptions out the window.  Life is life.

[BrianN]

... in response to Because of FIVE years?, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 10, 2002

ie, if his lower limit was 30, then that put her at 25... etc.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Mark that was 5 years younger than his l..., posted by BrianN on Feb 10, 2002

Missed that somehow

[BrianN]

... in response to Hmmm....., posted by LP on Feb 8, 2002

This post of yours definitely requires some long thought.  You're obvilously the harder of the "hard arses" around here it seems lp, and I understand you very well.  More concrete "logically" based decision process, as a pilot would be... (airspeed low, altitude low... Extend FLAPS, no grey area whatsoever - as self preservation to prevent total destruction would be the order of the day).

And you go so far as to throw in the word romance.  In my opinon, "romance" is the by-product of an emotional behavior, not the root.  A guy doesn't start his day by being romantic, he just behaves that way with his lady, wife, etc.  The lady then considers this as a definition, as "romantic".

Like you said, "romance doesn't power a relationship on the long haul", it's actually the persons behavior to the other that does.

Maybe Ken has thrown out his swipes at you based on a misunderstanding of the man that you are, and your lack of diplomacy (extend flaps again, even though it's not PC), but that doesn't mean he's not right, for his particular situation.

Each man is different, but most pilots, will still fly the same plane, the same way, with the same set of procedures.

(oh, sorry!  Nothing against pilots!  just an ex tactical a/c... the community sometimes calls the a/c's pilot wanna-be's.  Only one pilot was ever needed in my family... my dad).

Helluva post though.  Lots of thoughts to entertain.

[LP]

... in response to WOW,  what a post..., posted by BrianN on Feb 8, 2002

""Maybe Ken has thrown out his swipes at you based on a misunderstanding of the man that you are, and your lack of diplomacy""

Yes indeed Brian. I'm mostly misunderstood here. :-) But Ken is a sharp guy and has read enough of my stuff to know its just my poor social skills.  Those who *really* know me have no complaints. I beleive Ken when he says he didn't mean to slam me, same as I didn't mean to slam him. It's just his opinion, there was no "malice aforethought"

Ken is a nice guy, an all around gentleman. I hope one day I can be so also but it ain't lookin good. :-) I won't say he is thick skinned because that is different than being a nice guy. Being a nice guy is better.
lol, I'm thick skinned, but not such a nice guy at times.

Sure, I can be a jerk. Beleive it or not, I have to actually work at it though. The difference between me and some others is I can turn it off. :-)

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

if things don't work out with a western woman...its like things didn't work out...while with an FSU woman...shes a scammer 'cuz I went there and things didn't click.  Strange mindset.

[thesearch]

... in response to I find this to be quite true...for some ..., posted by tim360z on Feb 8, 2002

I appreciate what Ken is saying but I do not think that the correlation of AW and FSU dating  can be compared to easily.

The word scamming is not one that I have really heard  by males in dating AW. This word only became a household term for me when I entered the FSU women scene.

I feel in part the reason we can not so easily compare the AW and the FSUW is the great differences in economics and culture and great distance involved between parties.

The average Joe does not have as  dramatic economic status difference from the AW that he dates as compared to the FSU woman (of course there will always be exceptions) and therefore there is not a much to scam for by the AW as compared to the FSU lady. Also because of the great physical distance lies are easier to hide and better scams easier to create. In other words there is not as much perceived reward by the AW.

Come on now, how many here have dated an AW who makes up things like illnesses, accidents, or other major reasons simply to get money. I have never met anyone where this happened. I am sure it does but, it is the exception versus a common occurrence. Very few AW are really trying to scam a guy in this nature. They are just like their male counterparts relative to recreational dating - wanting to have fun - willing to have the guy spend money - but the guy gets sex and everyone is happy. If the woman does not put out and only lets him spend money he moves on. It is not about scamming. It is how the game is played.

However, if an AW dated me, and while I was not attending my wallet stole my credit cards etc. with all planned and her not being interested at all - lying to me about caring for me then well I would say that I was scammed. Again, I do not hear of these things (yes I am sure they happen - but again they are the exception of the AM experience and not common)

I have never had anything like this happen to me here in the USA after dating many many women but in the FSU I experienced an event of such magnitude with the third lady that I corresponded with - fabricating stories for the sole purpose of trying to get me to send funds to save her while she told me how much she cared for me when such was not the case at all. She got me for a sum of money before I got wise. This was just not behavior that I was used to here in the USA.

Where I agree with Ken is that because of the extremes of scams that these ladies have been known for some guys get paranoid enough that they over react and call certain behavior a scam when the magnitude of what happened does not justify the label scam.

For any FSU ladies who read this, I acknowledge that there are foreign men who are trying to scam them for sex and attention when they do not have honorable intentions. We dishonorables on both sides of the fence. Both sides have to deal with it.

[RWife]

... in response to Can not easily compare apples to oranges..., posted by thesearch on Feb 8, 2002

Greg,

Just one comment - american guys have created the "rules" and image themselves ASSUMING that they HAVE to pay for translations, rents, fancy vacations, etc.  You don't HAVE to fly her to Paris, you don't HAVE to spend big $$ on hotels and fancy dinners. It would be much wiser and appreciated more to spend it on your wife's adjustment in USA, your future house, etc than on some girl you haven't even met. Unfortunately, when somebody falls into this trap, they have only themselves to blame.

Can't comment on AW and RW dating situation. But me thinks AW are much more shreud in spinning you guys in separation, divorce and getting hands on current assets and even potential earnings It still amazes me. Yes, you will have sex every day compared to Russian woman living overseas, but I don't think that comes out of idea "just" having fun
I am certain believer that everything comes with the price, it's just different payment terms

Otherwise, why would you even consider Russian woman?

Russian Wife

[MarkInTx]

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

RW,

I am constantly amazed at your fluency in our language.

Your posts have better grammer, punctuation, and spelling than many "natives." (And dropping something like: "Methinks" shows a broad grasp of nuance.)

How long have you been speaking/writing English?

[MarkInTx]

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

RW,

I completely agree with the idea that men create this situation for themselves. Part of that is the way we operate here, and we go over there with the expectations and concepts that we learned while dating an AW. I can easily drop $100 on a dinner here in the states. That's $3000 rubles in Russia, and it makes the date's eyeballs pop since she would NEVER spend that kind of money on a dinner. Women in Dallas barely even notice that kind of a first date.

But, I will side with Greg on the definition of a scammer.

My first wife got the house and all of our possessions in our divorce. But that was after 8 years of marriage, and she never ONCE thought that we were getting a divorce when we got married.

We were both sincere in our goals and both sincere in our attempts to make it work.

If an RW married a man with the same intentions and then it didn't work out, I would not call her a scammer. Even if she "upgraded" her lifestyle in the process.

A scammer is someone who lies, cheats and steals with no INTENTION of ever trying to have a happy married life.

There may be AWs who do this (Anna Nicole Smith comes to mind...) but as Greg pointed out, these are rare and few.

There is a HUGE difference between a scammer and a woman who was unfortunate enough to be in a relationship that just didn't work out.

Are there AW scammers? Sure. Are some RWs labelled scammers inapropriately? Absolutely.

But the basic premise that Greg laid out in his post is 100% correct, in my opinion...

[tim360z]

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

and many Aw's have such highly developed skills with language and expressions that most guys never even know when their pocket is being picked.  Just sit in on a girls-only session and you will be amazed at how the AW's really talk about you.  Their talents are so refined that you scarcely even know the true motivation.  You missed the moves.  The Rw's skill is not so well socially and culturally refined as Aw's who have lived in our society all their lives.  They do lack the skills at motivating in our culture.  A-girls have practiced these skills since they were little girls,  some are so adept that their skills are seen as seamless by us men...not even recoginized.  Barely perceived ever.

[BarryM]

... in response to Yes,  I must agree on that, posted by tim360z on Feb 8, 2002

Don't ever underestimate them. That would be a stupid error on your part. Remember that RW/UW have more feminine behavior than AW these days. Because of feminism, TV, and the breakdown of the family, AW don't care as much. I would bet on the RW/UW to have more feminine guiles than the AW.

-blm