Inattention at the dinner table

[Scaught]

I am going to admit something about my last visit to Ukraine that really p*ssed me off. My "lady" whenever we went to restaurants (2 or 3 times a day for two weeks) would stare at people almost the entire time. She would grab the seat which gave her the best view of the crowd each time. Of course I asked her why she did this. She said her hobby is people watching. She was especially curious to see how rich Russians dress and behave. She encouraged me to look, too and join in on the fun. She said she looked at women as much as men and that it was all very innocent. On a beach in another country, she told me to check out a topless Russian girl getting some sun.

She is very beautiful and guys were staring at her all the time. One time, she glanced back just before exiting the room to see if a group was still staring at her. I thought this was childish, a sign of great self-absorption and really rude to do this in front of me.

This all really bothered me and I told her so. It especially bothered me that during the moment it became 2002 at the dinner party (I had ordered champagne), I planned to kiss her, but I didn't because her eyes were all over the crowd. In her defense, she said she had lived a long time by herself and didn't realize at all how it might affect someone else. Indeed, at first, she had no idea why I might be upset by her behavior. A mutual friend corroborated all she said, but I am still disturbed. When I am with someone I care about, I don't stare constantly at other people.

Okay, I'll sit back now and read messages from everyone saying to dump her!

P.S. Details ('cause people'll ask): she's 30; I'm 40. No kids on either side. People say we look good together. Strong mutual physical attraction. Both are professors. However, with this we are clearly opposed. I think it's extremely rude to gawk around when you're with someone, and I told her so. She called me jealous! I think there might be some cultural differences at play here. And she is not used to going to restaurants and hanging around people with money. So was she like a little kid at Disneyland?

I am hesitant to blow her off (besides my feelings for her) because in a way I'd be a big hypocrite. Of course I check out women. The difference is I have the sense to hide it. This girl was just so obvious and to her it was innocent and there was nothing to hide. So I think it is more complicated than it looks.

I am really interested in getting other opinions about this, especially from those who know Russian/Ukrainian women really well (WmGo comes to mind) or may be one themselves (RW comes to mind).

[Scaught]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

She didn't do this during my first visit... I will give it more time and see if she'll knock it off. I might just tease her until she does. She is great in every other respect, so far, but something like this really drove me nuts. This relationship is not going to be as easy as I thought-- this coming from someone with tons of cross-cultural experience.

[WmGo]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

Scaught,

Sorry for the slow reply but have been away. Yours is a difficult question to answer. I have thought about it a lot. I have had lunch and dinner with dozens of different FSUW. I never had any of them engage in the behavior that your lady did. So I cannot say that there is an identifiable FSUW characteristic on this subject. I agree with the points made in the other responses. I think that it is possible that a woman who has little experience going to nice restaraunts may have more of a tendency to look around at the other patrons, but your lady seems to do a lot more that just steal glimpses of the other people. I myself have always had a habit of looking around at people wherever I go as I find people to be interesting. But out of politeness I try to make sure noone notices what I am doing. To some extent I think it is normal to occassionaly look around a room to look at the other people. I did it over the weekend when I was having lunch at a roadside restaraunt out in the sticks. But as noted, your lady seems to have an obsession with herself. It seems that she does not just glance at other people out of curiosity, which is normal for all people everywhere, she seems to want to have their attention too. This is not normal.

I agree with RW that you need to look at the entire relationship, not just one thing when deciding to continue or end it. This is something that requires more time spent with the lady to fully understand and evaluate, along with everything else. I cannot overemphasize, however, my opinion that gawking, staring and trying to get the attention of strangers is not normal behavior for anyone, whether AW or FSUW.

My ruble today.

WmGO

[RW]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

Scaught,

I guess that would be your call. It is very hard to express any opinion. I also would be upset if my date/fiance was not paying any attention to me at the dinner table. But I also don't know if she is the same way when you are together walking around the city, on a date, with friends, etc.

And I don't know, there gotta be something more to the story if it really annoys you that much. I don't think one ruined dinner would make you consider breaking up with her. If everything else was great - would you care about that? I mean in any relationship you have to compromise - one night I have to listen to the stories of flying Tornado in Alaska, the other night my hubby has to go to the opera and try to stay awake (exaggarated but not too much

Everything can't be perfect... You like something in the person, you have to accept the rest. You can be right or you can be happy.

So make a list and put this quality on the right side with all other "bad" things about her and now see if you can live with it for the rest of your life. And on contrary  - all other "good" qualities and great things about her outweight significantly everything else?

Your call......

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

First of all, I doubt you're checking out other people as discretely as you think.  Second, it would bother me if I got no attention from my woman at the dinner table too, but how much attention do you need?  I have to agree with the posters below, that she is not accustomed to being out in public places like restaurants and just wants to check out what the nicely dressed women are wearing.  She might feel like she's part of the rich crowd now that she's got an American boyfriend.  

When I used to go out with my American wife, she would get mad at me for spending half my time looking around at other people.  She thought I was checking out good looking girls, but really a lot of the time I was thinking "Look at that fat chick over there dressed in that sweat suit, who goes out in a nice public place dressed like that?" I went out with a nice looking girl Ivy League graduate one time and she took me to a restaurant area where all the hottest chicks hang out.  I could not force myself to pay attention to her with all these great looking girls in low cut red and black dresses.  The whole date was a bomb for me because there were just too many other girls to look at.  

[DE]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

You're both right to some degree.  Conflicting character traits or behaviors are going to occur in any relationship as no two people are going to be 100% in sync with each other, especially in the beginning of a relationship.  Such actions can easily be justified as rude, childish, or being jealous.  And the truth is, what her actions were and what your response was, is all of that.  This is by no means flaming either her or you, but rather to point out that the end result of how you both handle this is entirely on how either one or both of you deal with your own actions.

One can justify her actions by saying that this is a new experience for her and that she seeks the eye contact of others in a social setting as a form of self approval that she has "arrived" or to the other extreme of saying its flirting.  Either way, it is a part of her character that you either accept, learn to live with or let it eat at you until it just becomes one more reason (or justification) as to why you are not compatible.

And I believe that she is somewhat correct in saying that you're (somewhat) jealous or this.  I say this from personal experience in that this very same issue is something I have dealt with in the past and is one of my criteria in deciding if someone is compatible with me.  Here you are traveling half way around the globe to meet this lady.  You dine her, try to be attentive and in return she seems to be inattentive at best and at worst, seems to be somewhat callous, unappreciative, pre-occupied with herself or other men.  You want to be the center of her universe but she seems to be sending signals that maybe you aren't.  And of course this will stir emotions of jealousy.  We all have jealousy within us.

The answer lies within as only you can decide on how you choose to react to this.  Sure you can tell her that this is troublesome to you, but the truth is, if this is a learned behavior or a character trait (for what ever reason), you are NOT going to change it in the small amout of time that you will get to spend with her during the courting phase.  This means you will have to deal with this for some time to come and are you going to allow this to slowly eat at you and create other problems.  You will be much more successful in the short term in changing how YOU react to it or moving on and finding someone that doesn't have this trait of behavior.  The break up of any relationship, whether marriage or courting is for the character traits and behaviors of the other person that you can't live with.  I've never seen anyone break up over the good things in the relationship that they can live with.  Does the good points outweigh the negative?  Can YOU change how you react to this?  That's where your answer lies.

FWIW, but don't take my advice, you're getting exactly what you paid for it.

[tim360z]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

you are not in the picture.  Maybe yes,  maybe no,  as you are more familiar with your personal dynamics with her than anyone on this board.  Most women,  anywhere are by varying degrees---curious voyeurs.  Most,  look around...but some are more adroit and skillful at it.  Maybe "going out" was a big experience for her?  She was 24 and had been married for 3 years and then got divorced and had a 2 1/2 year old to take care of.  She had not really been "out" for years.  Going out to restaurants and clubs was a very big deal for her and she was always dressed to kill and to be looked at.  And "looking around" was something I expected from someone who this was like all new to.  Our first 20 times out she looked all over the place with such curious eyes and comments on people she saw.  Actually,  for me I found this rather boring,  but her social life had certainly been quite confined.  So,  I never said a word and I did not let this bother me.  After about 20 times the "newness" of this experience wore off and gazing around and people watching was on the decline and soon just faded away.  Maybe "going-out"  so often was a new experience for your friend? 2kopeks

ps:  Now you probably have more experience at discretely looking around...maybe she has not yet learned this skill.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

OK.. no expert on RW, so feel free to totally disregard everything I say... but here goes:

Should you dump her for this?

No.

But... maybe it shows you other areas of her personality that you *should* dump her for.

Does it really bother you? Have you expressed it to her? Does she blow off your feelings? Or has she tried to change her habits?

These are the important questions. And they are the only ones that matter. If her behavior affects your relationship, something has to give, or the relationship will fail.

This reminds me of a story...

Years ago I worked in a computer store. And this one guy that worked there with me was really a whiz at his computer. Loved playing around and modifying it to see what it could do. (This was the days before the IBM PC).

He met this one woman that he was madly in love with. He couted her for months before she finally went out with him, and when he finally asked her to marry him, and she said yes, he was the happiest man on the planet.

So, one day, someone in the store was kidding him about the time he spent working on the computers. And they asked him, what would you do if she said she would only marry you if you sold your computer and gave up working with them forever.

I was stunned to hear him say: "If she said that, I'd break off the engagement tomorrow."

I told him he couldn't mean that. Did he really love his computer more than his finacee?

He said, no. But working with computers was something that gave him great joy, and was not harmful in any way. And no woman who truly loved him would ask him to give up something that brought him happiness.

He had a point. His love of computers was a part of him.

However, it should be noted that he was very attentive to her, and didn't choose computers over her. Last I heard, they were still very happily married.

She knew what she married, and she was OK with that.

Are you?

Are you willing to lose her over this? Is she willing to lose you over it?

Or, as the marines put it: "Is that hill worth dying for?"

[Tania]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

I think you just pay too much attention to this. Just look around and see how many nice weared girls are around. Maybe you will have fun together discussing them. Of course it is rude to stare, but I don;t think if your lady is high education, she did it so direct. I think you just too worry about it. At least western people come here to have our girls. We wouldn't be so beautiful, if we don't care about what other think of us and don't look how other look like. It is from old times when clothes were hard to find, when information about fashion we took on the street. Just remember this and you will be happy with your girl. I am sure in America she will soon became the same as American women, but is it what you look for?

[John K]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

All Russians stare.  They don't see anything wrong with it.  The beautiful girls expect it and it is a source of pride for them that they can command peoples eyes to them.  Don't see it as rudeness; it's simply their culture.

If that's the only thing that bothers you, explain that in America it is considered rude to stare.  But while you are in Ukraine, be prepared to deal with it.  *You* are the fish out of water there.  Remember, when in Rome...

[WmGo]

... in response to It's not a character flaw, posted by John K on Jan 19, 2002

John,

I have been to Russia twice for a total of three weeks and Ukraine three times for a total of five weeks. Based on my observations, people there do not stare any more than they do here. Sure, they look around at their fellow countrymen like everyone else does, but they do not really stare. If anything, they are more discreet with their glances and lookings. Perhaps this is a part of the Soviet legacy. Without a doubt, I found myself looking at other people *more* than they looked at me! LOL

I do agree that women there want to be noticed, but so do AW, and this is one of the Seven Great Mysteries of the World: why would a woman even expect to be favorably noticed dressed like a man, hair unkempt with forty to a hundred and forty extra pounds? FSUW know how to become noticeable. AW used to. Now the ones who do are in a minority.

"The downfall of a nation begins with the refusal of women to dress like a lady"

Regards,
WmGO

P.S. The quote is my own

[John K]

... in response to The Great Downfall, posted by WmGo on Jan 21, 2002

For my wife, it is painfully obvious to her that Ukrainians are more open about staring.  Here in America, she sometimes feels a lack of appreciation, not because I don't attend to her, but because Americans are more polite and discrete about staring.

I personally didn't notice any particular staring in the times that I have been in Ukraine, but my wife has told me often that wherever I go in Ukraine, people stare at me, because I am American.  Likewise, in America, I catch people staring at my wife that she doesn't see.  Maybe there is a difference in the way that people look.  If so, I wonder what it is?

[WmGo]

... in response to Depends who's noticing, posted by John K on Jan 22, 2002

Now you may be on to something. Perhaps FSU people are more sneaky about their staring. This also would seem to be consistent with the Soviet legacy. I really don't know. I read in many places that in Russian culture people stare more. I just didn't really notice it. I certainly noticed people noticing me, but not really staring  -- holding there look for an extended period. Perhaps they accomplish their staring the way I do - stealing a lot of short glances over an extended period! LOL Call it surreptitious staring!

[Stevo]

... in response to It's not a character flaw, posted by John K on Jan 19, 2002

ggg

[BarryM]

... in response to Inattention at the dinner table, posted by Scaught on Jan 19, 2002

for some reason. It may have been subconscious, but it is a red flag.

There are many more RW around that would have more etiquette. I would consider her behavior an harsh insult. If she doesn't realize this, then she is not in any way sincere and she considers you to be a stupid American.

-blm