Children’s negativism

[Tootsie]

I was much surprised by most of the comments of my post “Statistics”. Hey, I didn’t intend to play with you a children’s game “believe-not believe” as some of you probably decided. Certainly any information can be accurate or not and it’s only your own affair to believe it or not. I can remind you that even US President Mr. Clinton lied on TV and in court, what to say about the rest? This post wasn’t my own opinion on something, so in fact I expected you just to take it as an information and nothing else. If I expected comments I expected them to be something like “It seems to me the divorce rate is lower because American men are so wonderful creations blah blah blah”. Or “In my opinion the RW/AM divorce rate should be higher than 80% due to this and that”. Instead of this some posters started to explain to me that mass media could lie (and I  didn’t know that, LOL), others explained to me situation with NTV (most probably this info was taken from very “reliable” sources). The “best” and most “valueable” comment was “maybe yes, maybe no, maybe rain, maybe snow”. Phsychologists call it “children’s negativism”.

Again, it’s up to you to believe me or your mass media re. situation with NTV but I would like to explain you shortly what it was in reality. It was a long and rather complicated story and for rather long time I listened to both sides of this conflict and made my own conclusions. I don’t want to go into details of this story and will try to make it short.

There was two sides involved in the conflict – the owners of NTV channel (as you said it was and it IS a non-governmental TV company) and the employees (team of journalists, reporters etc.). The owners invested lots of money into the company and this money “disappeared” mainly in the pockets of employees in both legal and illegal ways. Legal month salary of NTV Director (employee) was $15 000, other employees had $7-12 000 monthly. Husband of my close friend worked for NTV as person in charge for lightening effects and his salary was $3 500 per month. Unheard salary for TV workers. When it was discussed on TV they said that it was normal for any civilized country to get good money for hi-fi job and that their collegues in Western countries also get lots of money. Sorry but I studied mathematics at school and I was taught there was absolute and relative figures. $100 in the US and in the Ukraine are somehow “different”. But it wasn’t taken into consideration by NTV stuff. During numerous discussions and talks between stuff and the owners stuff talked a lot about “word freedom”, “political pressure” etc. while the owners had only one question “Where is money?”. They asked this question again and again and got no definite answer. It was like a talk of deaf and blind. Finally new management came to NTV and some (not all) stuff started to work for TV6 channel. Both channels were and are non-governmental TV channels. NTV problems had nothing in common with politics, Putin, freedom of word and mass media as the interested stuff wanted to present it, it was only about money. I understand that your media presented it in another way, but I let you know my opinion.

Regards,

Tootsie

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

We don't want to eat you, we just want to tell you our feelings.  Please come in the water.  Sharks are nearsighted you know.

[Dan]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

Now - for the response you REALLY wanted -- It seems to me the divorce rate is lower because American men are so wonderful creations.

Cheers,

- Dan

[WmGo]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

Hey Tootsie!

Now, I have to challenge you a little bit As I recall correctly, when I was in Moscow in June you were telling me that I could easily go for a woman 15 and even 17 or 18 years younger than me. You may recall that I thought that that was too much of an age difference (for a serious marriage minded relationship). Did you change your view, or is your opinion situational?

I am currently dating two AW. One is twelve years younger and the other is ten years younger than me. I have never dated a woman within ten years of my age here in the USA. I personally think that 15 is the maximum *reasonable* age difference (here or there), but my personal preferance is nine to twelve years.

I agree that too big an age difference can increase the chances of difficulties in many areas. The problem is that, because Russian women are so attractive, when AM visit they lose their mind! Is this some kind of Russian conspiracy in reverse? Like the government leaders planned to send all of their women to America and slowly take over the country?

Stay warm.

WmGo

[Tootsie]

... in response to Privet, posted by WmGo on Dec 17, 2001

Certainly you can go... And for 15 y.o. girls too... Why not? But what will you get??? LOL.

No, I didn't change my opinion. Go and get and try to keep.))

Good luck,

Tootsie

P.S. Is it warm in Alabama? Maybe we change places for a while?

[WmGo]

... in response to Re:  Privet, posted by Tootsie on Dec 18, 2001

Hey Toots,

Yes, it is blue sky and warm. We are averaging highs in  the mid 60s (farenheit).

Take care!

WmGO

[Ken W]

... in response to Re:  Privet, posted by Tootsie on Dec 18, 2001

My wife has been asked sooooo many times "what do you like about America" that she always gives them the same answer:

"The weather"

We are in Georgia, and it was 71F here yesterday..

[DR]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

As a 'species', Americans seem to have difficulty answering questions and addressing issues directly...especially if the issue is contentious.

Cheers...
DR

[Charles]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

Far from being "childish", my criticisms of your post were based on 1) no data to back up the 80% figure.  Like my post to mdante above indicates, I am waiting to see some reliable data on the divorce rate of these marriages.  That study COULD be done with the data available to INS, but it hasn't been done yet, particularly with respect to RW.  In addition, what data would be available to NTV to base this figure on?  Even if there was not a political agenda, their sources are probably women who have returned and report negative experiences.  Until a more reliable study is done, I view any claims about a high or low divorce rate or the high or low age difference with considerable skepticism.  I don't think that's being "childish" at all.  2)  With respect to the NTV takeover, you will never convince me that it was not politically motivated.  If the problem at NTV was money and corruption, they would have taken it over long before they did, as the facts related in your post were known for some time.

[JLA]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

I actually wasn't surprised with the statistics you mentioned.  However, I'm not discouraged either.  

Divorce doesn't randomly happen so therefore statistics don't mean anything.  Statistics reflect what is going on in the world, not with an individual couple.  

As others have mentioned, there are the usual stresses on an internation marriage.  Add to this the cultural gap and the stress of moving to a new country and you have a real challenge (which would naturally lead to a higher divorce rate for the overall population).  How well both the man and woman are prepared to deal with this challenge will determine their individual odds of success.  

Another factor that might increase the divorce rate for international marriage is the quality of the individuals involved.  I don't have any statistics here but it wouldn't surprise me if there REALLY ARE a number of AM who look abroad because they are losers or are shooting for women way outside their league (a "2" or "3" who wants a "10").  

Before anyone flies off the handle, no, I'm not saying "all" are, I'm saying "some" might be.  

How many men who go abroad do any research like this discussion board or learn about the culture of the country they're visiting, etc?  How many men go abroad and don't take care to get to know their partner first?  How many of them keep an eye out for "red flags" (without getting paranoid)?  How many of them have realistic ideas of what they offer in a relationship and try to find a woman on that level?  How many of them have much experience in relationships?  

Statistics that answer these questions might shed some light on the divorce rate for internation marriages.

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Statistics and Divorce, posted by JLA on Dec 17, 2001

I am on the Volga Girl junk email list (don't sign up for it) and one of the discussions was on the success rate of men in the Chicago area with Russian women.  The writer did not know of any successful marriages.  Two of the reasons he lists for failure are 1) the men lied about their circumstances (implied the were more successful than they were) and 2) they were not able to communicate with their wives.  

I am assuming somewhat, that he does not live in a very nice area judging from his first comment.  I have heard stories from RW and the EC owner about men that lied to the women about their age and circumstances.  One guy brought his UW to Texas to live in his trailer.  Said he was successful and had a nice house.  The guy still harasses the people at EC and writes nasty posts about RW in chat rooms.  I wonder if we know him?  Is it Dave somebody?

Your comment about some of the men being losers does not bother me because some men in any group will be.  Don't judge all the men by their looks though.  Some of those short fat bald guys are wealthy doctors or lawyers and are pretty nice guys.    

I have to think that if you do not get a girl out of you league, do not misrepresent yourself, and you get a girl you can communicate with, then you have a decent chance.  I can easily see guys that are losers and desperate women driving the divorce rate up to 80%.  For us decent folk, I give it better than 50/50.  

This group is a step up from the Volga Girl email list.  They have some real whiners (and no I didn't mean winners).  They make me want to scream.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Volga Girl Discussion Thread, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

Couldn't be Dave...

He would never exaggerate about anything...

Not with an intellect superior to all...

[RW]

... in response to Children’s negativism, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

between statistics and psychology - they both leave lots of room for interpretation

From my knowledge of 7 RW/AM couples in the area only one has serious problems and  most likely will be heading for a divorce next year. If you add me and my husband, that will be one divorce in 8 couples, which is about 12.5% divorce rate. Is that a good number? Is that a true number? Definitely not...

You were expecting certain answers and did not get them. Sorry about that. I do understand that it is a very serious topic for you as you are considering serious changes in your life. But, call it child's negativism or whatever else - each of us has 50/50 chance - either yes or no - it either works out or not. Even if AMs are the best husbands in the world if you can not get along with your own, that would not help...

On the other note and to add more positivism to my reply - yes, for me it's been a great experience. I am really enjoying my marriage - I am very glad to have my husband's support in everything - from help around the house to decisions in my career. I am happy to see how men here are good with the kids, how attentive they are to their families, etc. So far everything worked out great for me - but you can not predict the future. And I can not speak for everyone.

Good luck to you and Happy Holidays. Next time you should come to USA around Christmas. Or may be next year you will celebrate it here. It's the best time.

Russian Wife

[Tootsie]

... in response to two common things, posted by RW on Dec 17, 2001

for the positive post and sorry for some critics.

It's so cold here that I stay in a bad mood all day long and get irritated by things I usually don't even notice. I just hate winter.

I completely understand that foreign husbands (not all but still most) are so much better that what we have here. And it's the main reason I'm on this board. But I still think that most marriages with very large age gap will fail sooner or later (guys, if you read this please don't kill me, I'm in a cold Moscow in a bad mood!). I can believe that a 20 y.o. can be in love with 40 y.o. but most probably in the long run when it is 40/60 this marriage will fail. And the divorce rate will be even higher than 80% .

You know, I could consider 11 years age gap when I was here and got plenty of letters from grandpas. But when I stepped on US land and met my 49 y.o. "penpal"... and saw so many nice looking men around... paying attention at me and my female friend... But differ from girls who come on K-1 at a man's expense and have no choice besides go back or get married THIS certain guy I did have choice and certainly used it. That's the main reason why I think even 80% divorce rate is still too low.

I celebrated Christmas both in Germany and in the US and I still like better the way it is (I mean New Year) celebrated in Russia...

Happy Holidays to you and your family!

Tootsie  

[Mikhail]

... in response to Thank you, posted by Tootsie on Dec 17, 2001

I think the age issue could be important for many people. My question to Tootsie and RW is:
What do you think the maximum age difference should be in order to give the average couple a good chance of having a successful marriage ?