Note On Cultural Pride

[BarryM]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by RW on Nov 26, 2001

I see that program as a more contemporary example of Russian social culture. For Americans, the program is hokey and old fashioned, but I was quite impressed with the audience participation in the show. My observation is that it is a fairly good example of Russian sentimentality.

Have you seen it?

-blm

[Philb]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by RW on Nov 26, 2001

The Icon and the Axe by James Billington

[KenMan]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by RW on Nov 26, 2001

You can argue and debate until you are blue in the face. You can study history as far back as you want to go. But in the present ( here and now ) it is about the Corporate Culture. You cannot escape it. KLM, United Airlines, McDonalds, Nokia, Nike, Pop Music, Internet Games, Sony, that is the culture you live in. If you want to listen to the old composers of classical music, go to a ballet or read a classic novel, great. But does that mean you are cultured? Face it everyone wants a nice home to live in, a nice car to drive, nice clothes to wear, and likes to travel and eat good food. And they would prefer first class, the nice hotel and a good restaurant. The world is much smaller with jet travel and internet communications. Who wants to live in the past? My guess is in the next 5 to 10 years plus Russia will have Corporate Businesses on par with many Fortune 500 companies. Personally I like going to a football or baseball game, going to the New Orleans Jazz Fest, listening to Eric Clapton or the Eagles, and eating Crab Imperial and Maine Lobsters. Yes, I have been to the ballet and have Mozart, Bach and Beethoven CD's. And what does that make me? Cultured. I have also seen Ella Fitzgerald, Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis, Dizzie Gillipsie, Herbie Hancock as well as Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr ( I did not see John Lennon although I saw a statue of Lenin in Kiev ) , the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin (with john Bonham ), the Who ( with Keith Moon ), Lynard Skynard, the Alman Brothers ( with Duane ), Jeff Beck, Buddy Guy, B.B. King and many others live in concert. I have also been to a few Super Bowls, World Series, NBA Championships, NHL Hockey Championships ( I saw the 7th game of the Avalanche last year in Denver, Dan ). I don't know that might not be what you guys descibe as culture but it sure is a part of HISTORY and I had a heck of a good time!!! Now would you rather live at the turn of the 20th century rather than the 21st? I sure wouldn't have. I think the 1960's, 70's, 80's, 90's in the United States of America was some of the best times ever RECORDED in history of MANKIND! You guys are just too spoiled or too blind to see it! Kehhet

[KenMan]

... in response to Cultural Pride? It ls all about Western ..., posted by KenMan on Nov 26, 2001

YES!!! I think I want to live in a time when there was no heating or air conditioning. No trains, planes or automobiles. No mail system ( computers or internet ). No refrigeration. No sewage or modern toilets ( charmin or q-tips ). No anesthetics or penicillin ( scurvy and amputation sounds fun ). Yes, that sounds like culture to me! If I need to travel from New York to California I think I'll ride a horse or better yet just walk it. I can do that! If I could go back 200, 500, 1000, 2000 years I would really know what culture is. Not just someone here living in the 21st Century reading a book. No, I think I am thankful for living in the day, age and country I live in. Kehhet

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Cultural Pride? It ls all about West..., posted by KenMan on Nov 26, 2001

the depth and breadth and the beautiful crazy nuts beautiful American Culture of this very moment.  From virtually any standpoint it is absolutely incrdedible.  It is immeasurable.  We are all living at such an incredible moment in time and space.  It is so easy to to be an elitist and dismiss American Culture for this reason or that reason and some do...mistakenly.  And they miss the big huge hurly-burly beauty of it all.  

  And I do not think anyone here wants to return and live in the past.  This is more a collection of people looking forward to the future.  But,  in todays world it is good for Americans to understand the many cultures around the world...we have made a few mistakes in the past because of our ignorance.  History,  does help one to understand that culture and its people better...because accurate historys are the very roots of a culture or a civilization or a people.   It is just as important as understanding the here and the now...for the here and the now moves forward and becomes,  but a part of history.  Just like the ball game you went to.  Best,  Tim

[KenMan]

... in response to Yes,  You are right about......., posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

I think it is just as of late with Hollywood, the record industry and the fast food you see a shallow surface. But that is not to say you have choices and can turn off alot of the junk and still enjoy quality things here in this country. By junk I mean hip hop music and many of the televison programs. I grew up in a time of the Munsters, The Adams Family, Get Smart, The Sound of Music, Hogan's Heroes, The Sting. Of course the Amazing Mets, Joe Namath, The Steel Curtain, The No-Name Defense. Rock-n-Roll, Mowtown, Jazz. As of late the country is stale and not as creative as it once was. Blame it on the outrageous economics of Hollywood and the record industry. Money does not necessarily produce better. But the past decade did produce the internet and things like email , online trading and auctions which is now a part of our culture. As far as food I think New Orleans and New England have some great indigenous food. New England Chowder, Maine Lobsters, Creole, Gumbo. That is not McDonalds fast food where I do not eat. Also Boston and New York has some of the best bread in the world. I live in New Orleans area and just got back from Ukraine. NO where in the world have I tasted better bread than in those two cities. Personally I found the food in Ukraine not to be not as fresh as here in the States. It was good thouh. You cannot compare anything to their Vodka! Kehhet

[jj]

... in response to Re: Yes,  You are right about......., posted by KenMan on Nov 26, 2001

.

[ron]

... in response to The food in Ukraine is much better than ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

is their anything you are not an expert on?

[jj]

... in response to now you are expert on boston food!, posted by ron on Nov 26, 2001

.

[Dan]

... in response to now you are expert on boston food!, posted by ron on Nov 26, 2001

on Boston food?!?

Geez - I got fooled there somewhere into beliveing that --smile--.

- Dan

[jj]

... in response to Aren't ALL Canadians Now Living in Austr..., posted by Dan on Nov 26, 2001

.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by RW on Nov 26, 2001

Hi RW,

  Personally,  I think we all have a degree of our own cultural bias,  no matter where we are from in the world.  Or where we travel to.  Being American,  there will always be some American culture within me,  for the better or for the worse.  The human being is a very comparative species...meaning we are always comparing this to that etc.  Each people and country teaches and instills that there are great aspects to being from a particuliar ethnic group or culture and has acheivements,  whether esoteric or concrete,   to point to.  I think it is a healthy thing.  It is unhealthy for youth of a given culture to feel their culture has little value,  as when compared to another.  One needs some pride of oneself to succeed in this world.  From time to time I communicate with a successful girl in Nigeria and she takes a great pride in aspects of her country and culture,  despite the many problems there.  So this is,  in my mind a healthy universal thing.  And it is from our own inner insecurity that we may flame cultures of other countries...trying to say that mine or yours or his or her culture is better.

  To get to where you want to go it is a good idea to know where you have been.  This is wise for both individuals and countries and ethnic groups.  An accurate history is a good start.  I have a good appreciation of Russian/Ukrainian history, it is a long and interesting history with many pivotal moments.  Now Vladamir was such a pivotal person,  although he was a pagan barbarian and a very powerful warlord.  His one little decesion in 800AD determined the course of Russian culture and economics and politics for 1200 years.  It,  combined with the vast distances, alienated Russia from the rest of the western european cultures for centuries.  The effect of his decesion for the future of Russia is staggering, having great implications upon the future....far beyond he ever could have guessed.  So,  I thought it strange that some educated Russians knew so little about him.  RW,  I am sure you know the little decesion Vladamir made and why,  maybe some here do not.  But,  even today this small decesion by a pagan warlord barbarian has great impact...because it established,  over centuries,  a great culture.  Different in many ways from then emerging western europe.

  Vladamir decided that his bands,  his many tribes of people should worship only 1 GOD.  But which GOD should it be???  At that moment in time there were 3 Great Religions and one smaller one.  Muslim,  Greek Catholic,  Romes Catholic and Jewish (smaller religion).  He sent many emmisseries to study all the religions and to return and report to him on all the religions.  They returned with information,  from the centers of the great religions, Rome,  Constantinople,  etc to give their reports.  He found problems with the Jewish religion,  just too much confusing religous stuff.  He loved many aspects of the Muslim religion and culture,  especially their advanced architecture.  But,  he knew his people would not abide the part about no-drinking-of-alcohol...so no Muslim.  It was between Roman and Greek Catholic.  At that moment Rome was in a huge decline and the churches in Constantinople were numerous and huge and beautiful beyond anything anywhere.  Hundreds.  Within a huge cathedral his emmisseries felt GOD and they were sure that GOD dwelled in Constantinople.  That was enough for Vladamir and everyone became Greek Catholic immediately...it was a good idea to agree with Vladamir.  Now,  the implications of this one pinpoint moment in time are enormous.  Many historians have conjectured upon...what if he had chosen Rome?  Enuf,Tim

 

[Philb]

... in response to Part II Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

I have no basis on which to judge the "typical" Russian's knowledge or lack of concerning their countries history.  But I do think we (Americans/Westerners) are often guilty of not taking into account the entire Russian history when reaching conclusions concerning theit culture.

We tend to look at things as either pre or post communist.  I think the bigger issue is east/west.  Looking at things with my limited knowledge of Russian history this pull between east and west is present throughout their timeline as a country.  

An example would be the Russian Orthodox Church.  The Russian Orthodox Church is a markedly different entity then either of the churches headquartered in Constantinople or (of course) Rome.  It contains parts of both and parts that would be considered distinctly Russian.  

This appears to be something Russia and its people have struggled with throughout their history.  It is also something the west has had trouble with in regards to its perspective of and dealings with Russia.  We tend to want to judge Russia via a western or eastern (either/or) perspective.

[micha1]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

Hello Tim,   while I do live in North America as you do, let say that I do agree with the Europeans, culturally wise.
We are not much.    We are pretty good on télévision, fast food and plactic (in food, clothings and cars).
As a whole,  the average people are alike everywhere.  Good and hardworking, trying to get from from a  paycheck
to the next.    May be that you live in a capitalist or ex-communist country, it is all the same.
The communist system was the exploitation of men by  men, and the capitalist is  exactly the reverse.
What they do mean by culture, was books, philosophy, music and the arts (generally).
To end it all,  let say that when you can rub a few c-notes or g-notes together, you got it made every and
anywhere.              Remember the USA of is a theocracy,   Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
(no malice intented).

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by micha1 on Nov 26, 2001

I agree.  I do agree.  I have always thought,  along with the De Medici,  that money can be very good for culture. Tim