Note On Cultural Pride

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by KenC on Nov 26, 2001

Hi Ken,

  Yes,  I think anyone contemplated marrying a girl from FSU, or virtually any other country will in some cases need to take some "patience pills".  There is a different pill to take if you marry some AW's...so take the proper meds.

  For Russians,  I think the scope and degree of their last 75 years is emerging and many educated people are beginning to understand what was really going on from the Lenin era to perostryka.  History is twisted by governments for their own ends.  But,  in a free society,  with a free press the lies cannot really hold-up for long once the light of scrutiny is shined upon lies.  And today that is truer than ever before.

  For anyone who thinks life was so horrible under communism...dig deeper to see what life was like under the Czar's.  1800's-1900's,  life was poor,  tough and brutal for the average person.  And the Royal Elite of that era make todays New Russians seem like paupers.

 Understanding and writing an accurate history does take time.  From the vantage point of time...things become more in focus.  Like those recent LBJ tapes.  The truth takes some time usually.  Tim

[jj]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

.

[WmGo]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

...involuntary servitude not good.

[Dan]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

Now if only we could get him to offer some sort of substantiation to any of his inane posts. Then again - his posts give all the indications of someone that desparately WANTS to be seen as knowing something of value - in spite of the reality.

- Dan

[jj]

... in response to Another HIGHLY-Illuminating Post By Our ..., posted by Dan on Nov 26, 2001

.

[Dan]

... in response to Such pathetic insults...  not worthy of ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

n/t

[KenMan]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

Actually alot of slaves had it pretty good. Just ask Thomas Jefferson's mistress :-)

[johnE]

... in response to Re: Life in the South (Slavery) was not ..., posted by KenMan on Nov 26, 2001

If you check your history, there were blacks who owned
slaves as well.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Life in the South (Slavery) was not ..., posted by KenMan on Nov 26, 2001

but he,  like many other great historical figures was only a man of "his time."  Not OUR time,  OUR moment.    The morals, the values,  the social mores.  Few great historical figures could hold up under the white light scrutiny of today.  Their faults and excesses are stupid when viewed,  in retrospect,  from OUR time and OUR values.  In our armchairs.

  Certainly,  I do not applaud the faults of old TJ or of the Old South.  The slavery,  the beatings,  the lynchings of which some crimes continued well into the 20th century...but to even think of comparing the isolated violence in the South to good ole Uncle Joe Stalin and WWII....and the Gulags,  is so far out of scale.  Uncle Joe had alot more zeros for his deeds.  I hate to say it,  but you and me,  the possibility is that we are merely only men of OUR time.  Perhaps,  if we had lived in TJ's time,  with the associated values---we would probably each have a mistress,   who was black.  For sure I will never know 'cuz I will never be there,  for sure.  Tim

[tim360z]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

we are into the scale of 10's of millions.  Uncle Joe killed more Russians than the Nazi's.  Any comparison to the American South or anything else is !!$##$@&*!!

[wsbill]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

Winter wonder land in the West...  Ask the Jew or Germans about their relocation plans by the former Soviet Gov't.

[wsbill]

... in response to Life in the South (Slavery) was not too ..., posted by jj on Nov 26, 2001

Winter wonder land in the West...  Ask the Jew or Germans about their relocation plans by the former Soviet Gov't.

[jj]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by KenC on Nov 26, 2001

,

[jj]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

America like Canada and Australia does not have "Culture" with a capoital C.  Russia. America and Europeans do..  They have a tradition that dates dack centuries..  A tradition stepped in history...   Their Architecture, Art, Music and society abound in evry corner...  The American Drean=m is just that a dream manufactured in Hollywwod... bord out of the American westerns,  Cowboys and the slaughter of thousand od indian tribs...  Like Canada and Asutralia they had to import Culture though immigration.  The trusth of ot all is theey are not really democratic.  Like Britain they still maintain the first past the post electial system. It was obly last year we saw the election of the US President not based on the majority but flawed in its electorial system where one state can elect on questionable grounds with just 50% of the vote in one state fewer then 25% of the population 100% of delegates to a convention...

This is the proud tradition of democratic rule...  The leader of nations who refuses to go it alone and not ratify environmental treaties...  Give me the quality of European Parliaments anyday...  The main issue facing Russia and Uklraine today on the surface of it is that they tried abd failed to adopt the American model of economy.  They would have been far better off embracing the system of Sweden or Germany...  Just my 2 cents worth...

[RW]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

Tim,

Thank you for the post. I think it is very good observation. But my opinion is little bit reverse - I think it is usually a person with a little knowledge of culture and history who claims that his country/culture is superior.

As for knowledge of history.... Yes, it was very limited at one time, during Soviet era. Lately there is enormous amount of history novels, but.... that is also time of market economy, so what do you think young people would prefer to read - some pulp fiction novel or novel about Kievska Russ??? The other interesting observation is that when I was back home in June of this year I was trying to find books by very popular Ukranian writer - Pavlo Zagrebelnyi - he has books about Roksolana, Kievska Russ, First Kiev bridge, etc, but they have not been republished since 1985.... Demand and supply?? There are tons of trashy novels, Britney Spears posters and stickers, but not that many good books on history.

But I would think that you would have very intereting discussions in Russia with your knowledge. Russian women ARE very different and it depends a lot on the family they were raised by. Some would not care about Mongols and Vladimir and how Russ was baptized, but others take a lot of interest in their culture, music, history and traditions... I think it's a big myth that ALL russian women enjoy ballet, classical music, so popular "traditional values", etc. It all depends on the person, degree of education, family and personal values.

So yes, to some degree cultural pride IS a shelter for some people, but I think people who DO know more about their own history, about their own culture, traditions - they are actually more open to other cultures and have better understanding and tolerance of others. It is easier for them to adapt because they are eager to learn more about new culture.

Russian Wife

P.S. You probably already have it, but the best book I found in USA on Russian Culture and history is "Between Heaven and Hell : The Story of a Thousand Years of Artistic Life in Russia" by Bruce Lincoln.