Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . .

[Dan]

My, oh my - how we manage to find some of the most interesting topics to argue about here on Good 'Ol P-L!

Out of curiosity - how many of you would insist that a person tip - or not tip - or tip a certain percentage - or spend their money a particular way - if the discussion centered around life here in America - or a vacation to Las Vegas

Maybe it's just me - but I fail to see the logic of arguing over a topic that is simply based on individual choice. I sometimes tip when I am in Ukraine - and I sometimes do not - it is entirely situational and a function of my mood at the time. I have tipped waitresses and I have tipped cabbies - and I have even tipped the 'floor babushka' that monitors who comes to my room at night in the hotel (it's amazing what a little constume jewelry will do for relaxing the 'rules' - btw, ask Jack for his inputs on the topic - they are invaluable).

Seriously, while I see both sides of this particular argument - I also see it as an individual's choice to do whatever he/she wishes. If a person has the disposable income and wishes to 'live it up' while in the FSU - so what?? Do you really believe it will spoil it for those who wish to travel more frugally? Sure, some people may form the wrong opinion - but that is hardly the entire population - and I would be pretty suspicious of someone that formed opinions of an entire country's populace based on the spending habit of a few travelers anyway.

Sorry guys - I just don't see the relevance of an argument on tipping choices.

I do, however, get really riled at some of the nonsense I see written about average wages and the cost to locals for apartment rentals in Ukraine. There sure seems to be some serious misinformation flying around here. It is ludicruous to think that any reasonable apartment will cost a local in Kyiv only $25 per month. Maybe it is possible in some villages or some distant reaches where metro and bus travel is a great distance away, but it is not realistic in most sections of Kyiv.

I also rankle at the garbage about a $50 per month average wage in Ukraine. I'd like to see the demographics and statistics to support it. The only possible way it can be true is if it accounts for the entire population (non-working children included) and incorporates the rural, agricultural communities.  Clearly, in Kyiv and other major cities, the average wage is much higher - and I know Olya was quadrupling that amount for her wages at a truck factory - without a university degree - and in a relatively small city in Ukraine.

Perhaps it is because I am active in the Ukrainian job market that I have a fairly well-developed sense of incomes - because I am paying some, but there is a pretty clearly-distorted common belief on this board.

FWIW

- Dan

[WilliamMGi]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Tipping in the US, at least around NYC, is getting out of control.  Yes, I would comment to someone on tipping in the US, as well as in the FSU.  Especially to someone travelling to areas where tipping is a relatively new practice.

Americans really need to think about why they provide tips for service.  

When I started dating, the 'rule' was to tip 10% for table service, and vary it up or down depending on the quality.  I don't recall when the baseline shifted to 15%, but I've been struggling to hold the line at that level.  It's tough, especially when most of the people I go out with have accepted a 20% baseline as the norm.  Recently, I've been reading that a 25-30% tip is recommended for 'dining' in NYC.  The service hasn't been improving, the expected size of the tips has just been getting bigger.

Tips have also been inflating for cabbies, barbers, bellmen, porters, hotel maids, and all of the other service people who tradionally have held their hands out for a little bit extra.  Tip jars are turning up by the cash register in businesses where I would never have considered leaving a tip.  A tip for the cashier at the drug store?  Tip jars at the meat and deli counters in my supermarket?  Someone mentioned the absurdity of leaving a tip for a windshield repair.  Both of the car repair places in my town now have tip jars for the mechanics.  

Why do we do this to ourselves?  

Let the employers pay their people decent wages, and scrap the habit of leaving tips simply because they are expected.

I have a few anecdotes about tipping overseas, but I think I'll leave them for the next time this topic rises up.  

[tim360z]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Money?  Money is an interesting topic.  Money helps make the world go 'round.  I used to be a head waiter(part-time) at a very very high end restaurant and here tips are all a part of the show.  if you had a great and memorable moment in your life...most Americans and South Americans and Brit's and French...all show it...no problem.  But,  thats here.  But,  anywhere most people do like to receive money.

  Some months ago I had read posts of how people make so very little money in Ukraine and Russia.  Something like $50 per month was the average salary.  There is some numbers,  statistical game going on here,  with those numbers,  especially for Moscow or Kiev.  They make more money there...period and a decent rent is far more.  Now,  maybe in Grebenik...its $50,  but not in the big cities.

  Heres the very funny thing,  I have found.  There are some very smart women in Moscow and Kiev who have excellent educations and jobs....and are married.  They speak and write and communicate in excellent English and live in very nice apartments with their Russian husbands,  who are maybe 5 years older and also make a good buck.  They are quite sophiscated and very well educated and very curious of the world beyond them.  I really have begun to think that the girls who use the agencies are probably poor and not as educated as my better gifted penpals.  Some people make nice comfortable money there and have the time to email me from work and also have a computer at home and have no interest in marrying a foreign guy.  

 So,  the money thing???  To each his own.   Tim

[Jimmy]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Dan,

I didn't meant that you are a Sugar Daddy in the downside sense of the word.  I apolgize.

My statement about the spending of Americans and other foreigners may be somewhat unsupported.  But I do live in an expat community and see how we are viewed by some and as one Ukrainian man put it to me "Americans have money coming to them like rain".  Even the French expats make jokes about how generous we are and how much money we have.  We tend to throw our money around and be very generous.  I think it comes from our great prosperity in our country and the value of money to us as a people is not well understood.  I hope I did not offend you and others here and hope that I give only good experiences that may be helpful.  My statement may have been a bit crass and uncalled for.

In answer to your question about renting an apartment in Kiev I have paid as high as $110 for a modest apartment in the center and that was when I first got here.  Now I pay around $40-$80 near the center depending on how nice I want it.  Prices are in a state of flux now and resonably so.  Yes there are very expensive apartments for $3000 a month and those happen to be very nice ones.  But I will assure you they are not being rented by Ukrainians.

I moved to Slavutich last November and many expats are coming here to work.  Americans are charged and pay higher prices for the rentals for houses than the French and other Europeans.  Because we pay it and don't mind doing it.  We tend to roll over when charged higher prices and usually don't bargain or argue about it.  Now take the French for example.  They will complain, argue, bargain, and beg to get a lower price.  For some reason Americans won't do that. The French will question every price on the cafe check and will try and minimize how much they will pay.  I will make it clear that I am not picking on the French.  I only have them to compare to but they are very frugal with their money.  Americans are not.

I read with interest how a person paying for work will get more for their money in Ukraine than the US.  I tend to agree with that but with the exception that you should be careful what you are paying for.  I could write more on that but I don't have time today.  I have some examples and may share them later.

All said, I see a vast disparity between the haves and the havenots here.  A babuska sitting down on the road selling vegatables for a measly few hr to a Ukrainian wheeling down the same road in a Mercedes.  Darn, I can't afford a Mercedes and truthfully I see alot of them and none owned by expats.

Well as always this is only my opinion.  I apologize if I offended anyone here.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

[WmGo]

... in response to Crass Statement, posted by Jimmy on Nov 19, 2001

offense to anyone (I think). Keep the valuable info coming. Your info is the same as I have learned and observed while over there.

How radioactive is Slavutich? Will you glow when you come home to America?

[Jimmy]

... in response to No, posted by WmGo on Nov 19, 2001

Actually not much radioactivity here but you can pick up some eating the local vegetables and fruits from the market.  My recent whole body count showed no increase from my work in the US.  I have worked nuclear for 24 years.

Jimmy
Ukraine

[wsbill]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50540-2001Nov18.html

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

This web site looked somewhat official.  Currency conversion came from the Yahoo finance website.  Pay in Kiev is much higher but so are the costs.  These numbers are actually better than what I have read in the past.  Maybe people are getting paid now but in the past people such as teachers and miners had an official wage but were not getting paid.  

http://www.ukremb.com/ukraine/general.htm

Average monthly per capita monetary income (January — November 2000) — UAH 141 (compared to UAH 99.6 in 1999)
141 Ukrainian Hyvernia is $26.72 US dollars

Average monthly of an employed Ukrainian (January — November 2000) - UAH 224 (increased by 29% compared to 1999)
224 Ukrainian Hyvernia is $42.45 US dollars

Decrease of real wages in 2000: 1.4% compared to 1999

Those Ukrainians are rich compared to the Belorussians.  

[James B]

... in response to Wages in Ukraine, posted by BubbaGump on Nov 18, 2001

This is an interesting conversation and seems that all have a different point of reference for wages.  I am engaged to a woman in Sumy, Ukraine who is a Doctor.  Her wage is only 150 Hrivna per month.  She is a Gynecologist for the city's largest factory.  She also receives gifts from the patients if they can afford it, but they are usually in the form of a bottle champaign, potatoes, eggs, etc.  In money, she recieves very little in tips.  Her mother has been a nurse for 40 years and received a wage of 132 Hrivna per month and because she is also of age for pension, she receives the Governments pension of 135 hrivna.  Her father is retired and receives that same pension amount as all persons at 132.  If you add all this up, you only come to about $100 for the entire family and this includes my fiancee's daughter.  All have to work their crops in the village to be able to exist on such a wage.

I understand that wages are higher in the big cities, just as our are in the good old U.S.A., but is all relevent with costs being higher.  My fiancee just started working two hours extra for families that can afford their own care and pay for it.  I don't know what compensation she receives from this, but I imagine it's better than what the Government pays.  She started working seven years ago and because the government was broke, they did not pay her for six months!  She has a friend who finished number one in the studies as teacher of English and the headmaster of the local university required her to pay him to gain employment. Just wanted to give my input from another point of reference.  Jim

[Dan]

... in response to Wages in Ukraine, posted by BubbaGump on Nov 18, 2001

Would include the entire population as the denominator - is that not true? If it *is* true, then the figure includes all school-age children and infants in Ukraine.

While it may be a useful comparison for relative standards of living in one country versus another - it is hardly a useful metric for much else.

- Dan

[BubbaGump]

... in response to And if I am NOT Mistaken, "Per Capi..., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Of course "per capita" includes all people.  That's why I also included the $42 on the individual salary.  A high birth rate would drive the per capita income down (as in Mexico) but I know for example that in Russia, the birth rate is below the population replacement level now.  I expect it to be the same in the Ukraine.  What we don't really know is how much salary may be under or over reported.  

The $42 number is in line with what I've read previously.  I expect technical professionals in the Ukraine, to have a higher salary and be more educated than most.  I also found a web site where a foreigner living in the Ukraine just guessed that the typical salaries were $100 to $150 in Kiev.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Taken from KP Post

Coming to grips with tipping

Hey miss frugal, tipping improves service!

The first thing that impressed me about Uk-raine when I arrived here was the hospitality and generosity. I know it sounds condescending and trite, and I don't mean to spew cliches about how "the people here are really wonderful." Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. In nearly half a decade, all that I have been able to determine is that some Ukrainians are really wonderful and some are just plain nasty. Same holds true for Americans. And, yes, even Canadians.

But regardless of whether Ukrainians are "wonderful" or "nasty," all of them seem to have a strong sense of generosity. Whether this is genetic or bred, I can't really say. But I know that if I wanted anything from my Ukrainian friends - be it their monthly salary, a full-course meal, their last cigarette, or first-born child - I would get it. No questions asked. No expectation of repayment.

That's why it surprises me that many of my Ukrainian friends - all of them, in fact - hate to leave a tip in a restaurant. Usually, they will grudgingly do it if there are Westerners at the table. But on those occasions, the tip tends to be a couple of hryvna no matter whet the amount of the bill. I have had friends suggest leaving Hr 2 when the bill was more than Hr 200 - that's 1 percent.

Their tipping system has nothing to do with the level of service, unless service was average or bad, then they often see it as a way out of having to tip.

I have been known to leave a really small tip or no tip at all when service has been horrendous. If a waitress is outright mean, if the food takes hours for no reason, if some sort of bodily injury occurred, I would not hesitate to express my disappointment in the form of a dismal tip.

But that is rarely the case. Even if the service and food is mediocre - as is often the case at Kyiv restaurants - I tip at least 10 percent. This causes some of my friends to grab the money, throw it back at me and hiss that if I tip so much, soon all the waiters and waitresses will expect a good tip.

Great! Maybe then all the waiters and waitress will also try to earn it.

I think there is a direct correlation between good service and good tipping. In the West, good service is expected - demanded, in fact. And it's rewarded with up to a 20 percent tip. Here tipping is not expected, nor is good service.

When I leave a tip on the table, I am saying to my server: I appreciate your attention and hard work. I know you have a demanding job and make a pathetic salary. I hope this will inspire you to be kind, efficient and even smile occasionally.

And usually, it works.  

- Diana Elliott

I'll pay the bill, but keep my change

Indeed, Ukrainians are known to be hospitable, and recently I discovered a probable answer why. Hundreds of years back, our ancestors had a custom: If you share food with someone, this person will never be your enemy. The rudiments of this custom remain until this day, even though it's no longer conscious. That's why your friend's babushka is doing her best to stuff you with tea and pirozhki when you drop by for five minutes; that's why Kuchma meets Clinton at the airport with bread and salt.

But Ukrainians have never been known as generous. Rather, the Slavic folklore depicts us as a stingy nation. There's a famous anecdote: a Ukrainian is asked "What will you do if you are given an apple?"

"I'll eat it."
"Two apples?"
"I'll eat them."
"A cartload of apples?"
"I'll take a bite of each one."

An exaggeration? Perhaps. If you go to a Ukrainian village, this anecdote becomes almost a reality. Sorry to disappoint you, Diana, but Ukrainians aren't as nice to everyone as they are to their guests.

But we needn't dig that deep to understand why Ukrainians have a problem with tipping. Apparently, the tipping culture is not new to Ukraine. Many Russian literature classics mentioned tipping in their works. In Russian, the term is "davat' na chai" -  to give money for tea. Tea was the favorite beverage in czarist Russia; each inn served tea, and each visitor spent at least an hour a day in a warm company around the samovar.  Naturally, awarding the good service of a coachman, a bartender or a porter with a half-kopek "for tea" was considered appropriate.

Most likely, the custom of tipping died out during Soviet times when both the restaurant food and service were notoriously horrible.

I'm a perestroika child who learned to economize on luxury items - such as restaurants, for example. When I look at the menu and calculate what a terrific dinner I could cook for this money, I'm no longer hungry. And even a Hr 10 tip - just think, 10 kilos of apples! - seems a waste.

When the post-Soviet generation grows up, tipping will become the norm. But hopefully, it'll never come to the absurd point of paying a small tip for horrendous service, as Diana does.

- Anna Kozmina

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Coming to grips with tipping, posted by Cold Warrior on Nov 18, 2001

Americans tip and Russians don't.  Restaurant workers seem to prefer to serve American customers for that reason.  To tip or spend money to gross excess may make you look wasteful, foolish or offensive.  

What would you think if you went to Vegas and some high roller was throwing lots of money around?  I would think his money could be better spent elsewhere rather than flashing it to impress people.  I would also think he was crying out for attention.  I would just give in reasonable proportion to the cost of the meal.  Heck, I had a great dinner for 3 next to the Europa for $26.

[Jimmy]

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Dan,

I am sure you have seen and visited some places here in Kiev and elsewhere in the FSU.

I only live here.  Tipping is not a normal behavior for Ukrainians.  Only Americans do it.  Other foreigners with some prodding will do it.  Not many.

And for a minute lets talk about the wages.  I work with some very highly paid Engineers that are Ukrainian on the Chernobyl Project.  The maximum pay is around $200-300 a month.  My Russian lady worked in a dress shop for $85 a month.  It is not uncommon here for wages to be between those numbers.  I would bet you that most don't make more than $50-100 a month and that could be considered a good job.  If you are in business with Ukrainians and paying them more then you are a good sugar daddy.  I am sure they won't argue with you about paying more and won't give any back.

I have lived here for a year now and travel frequently to Kiev.  It is a very expensive place downtown near the center.  Americans and others that come here raise the cost in the center by their extravagant spending habits.  I know.  It makes it hard on others that have to live on limited income. So, my best advice is to be frugal in your spending and stop flashing all that cash.  It makes it harder on us that have to live here full time.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

[jj]

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

I agree Americans Tip too much.  I would only tip if I was visiting a great resturant and the service was bery good.  in genearl I think tipping is a bit of an insult.  I troied to tip a girl selling sunglasses in Yalta once as I felt bad that she was bing paid less then 10USD/day.  In the end I realsies this was not a solution and in some ways reduces them to beggers and done plays others (locals) who can not afford to tip.  If you like the service then give them more custom, but best you pay the going rate.

IN one case I heard of a American gave a 1USD tip thinking the poor Ukrainians would benefit.  Hell you can not change a one USD bill that easy.  

If you want to help then talk to the reserve bank and have them change the exchange rate.  Why is Ukraine so badly undersold.  They deserve much better.  But then I guess many would not seam as important or attractive to Ukraine Women if they were paid their worth...