Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . .

[Dan]

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

Hi Jimmy,

Yes, I know you are living there - and you may recall that I asked you about several people I know that work at that same facility shortly after you first arrived in Ukraine.

Actually, I have done a bit more than simply visit Ukraine. In the course of the past 4 or 5 years, I think my cumulative time is a bit more than 18 months - maybe a lot more. I'll have to add it up sometime. And in that time, I've managed to establish some pretty solid connections within the business community. I am active with the American Chamber of Commerce in Kyiv - have met with government ministers - established relations with numerous local firms, as well as contacts with numerous MNC's doing business in Ukraine - and I also have established connections in a couple of educational institutions (notably, Kyiv PolyTechnic and American International University). So you see, I think I have a pretty well-grounded basis for my understanding of wages and incomes paid in Ukraine. I doubt if anyone - especially the people with whom I am working - would consider me a "sugar daddy."

I've also had the unfortunate experience - just recently - of losing some of the very best people working with me to firms recruiting from outside Ukraine. This loss has forced me to, once again, become directly familiar with the job market and wage conditions.

I'll admit that my market is not the same as you are in - I am not recruiting Nuclear Engineers - or those working in the nuclear industry. I *do* however, have business dealings that take me into the energy and telecommunications sectors pretty regularly - as well as the software development arena. Perhaps this has something to do with the differences in opinion, but I doubt it.

It is interesting to see that you accuse Americans and others with their "extravagant spending habits" as causing the cost of living in Kyiv to be high. I wonder - can you cite a single city that operates as a center of commerce in their country - particularly international commerce - that does not suffer from this same situation?? I am thinking of my experience with Taipei, Jakarta, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and even Washington DC - and I cannot think of a single one that does not have the same problem you cite. I suspect it has far more to do with the international nature of the business conducted - and the centers of government there that lead to the high cost of living - and much less to do with the American influences - and certainly not the casual traveler that is looking for a wife.

You know, we have some really interesting 'discussions' about the economics of travel to central Kyiv. I know, for a fact, that some people pay almost nothing to live in apartments in central Kyiv. Why? They 'own' those apartments having been given them by the former Soviet system. I also know numerous American expatriates whose companies pay more than $3000 per month for their apartments. I also know that hotels range from a low of about $125 per night to much, much more. At the same time, I know what quite a few of my Ukrainian colleagues pay each month for their apartments - and I know the going rate for decent apartments because I periodically look into renting one for our business (no, not commercial property - residential). And I know several apartment owners that rent me their apartments for $50 per night. So tell me - which price point do you consider "extravagant" against that economic landscape??

But in all this, I could be wrong. I don't live there - I only have a huge investment of time, money and energy in the country.

FWIW

- Dan

[RW]

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

Yes, tipping is not normal, as well as "how can I help you?" attitude. At least I am glad it's getting better and tipping would be one way to introduce it.

Come on. What are you comparing? None of the Ukranians are paid range of expats salary, benefits, travel expenses, per deims. Company does not have to pay for rellocations, bunch of taxes, drivers expenses, interpeter expenses. And they get work done by sometimes even more qualified, better educated workforce who would not dream about raging for discrimination or ask for a pay raise or extra benefits.

Why would not Kiev be an expensive city? You expect Warsaw or Prague to be more expensive, but not Kiev - another tourist center and big city, that just seems odd to me.

As for tipping and spending money. The same way as in USA you get what you pay for. You think you are saving money, but paying $5/hr you get $5 quality... That's all.

[DE]

... in response to what?, posted by RW on Nov 18, 2001

 I think you get more for what you pay for in Ukraine than here.  That $5 quality is much better there than here. JMHO in paying $5 there and $5 here

[Dan]

... in response to Disagree, posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

I *think* RW meant that a cheap (by any measure) service will usually result in a sub-standard service.

I have a friend that works in Kyiv and is a trained linguist. He was trained in linguistics by the Soviet military in Moscow and speaks fluent English and Mandarin (in addition to Russian and Ukrainian). He charges substantially more than $5 per hour - and I use him exclusively if I have an important meeting in which I simply cannot afford a mistake. Bottom line - quality costs.

In absolute terms, I know that I get a whale of a lot more for my $500 per month paid to to developers in Ukraine than that same $500 spent here in America. No question about it.

- Dan

[DE]

... in response to Relative Economics . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

cheap doesn't necessarily mean sub-standard.  Nor does it negate a bargin or sale?  Of course we are not talking about translation services on this board (in general) where multi-million dollar deals hinge on the correct meaning of bargin vs. discount.  I have used several translation services which have ranged substantially in prices, and quite frankly, some of the better ones have cost me substantially less than $5/hr.  The point is, just because you paid $40,000 for a car and someone else pays only $25,000, doesn't necessarily mean you got the better car.  While generally speaking, higher quality does cost more, it is not necessarily always the case.  And by any comparison, your right, $500 over there is usually better than $500 over here.

[tim360z]

... in response to Point exactly . . ., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

Just because I spent $10,000 more for the same car you have...does not mean that---I have a better car.  NO,  You got the better price,  for the exact same car.  Just because one spends more...does not mean one gets more.  Like,  I just bought a beautiful brand new Ralph Lauren King Duvet,  brand new for $60.00 on Ebay.  At Bloomingdales its $350.  There is no difference between the products,  just like the cars.     Enuf said, Tim

[DE]

... in response to Re: Point exactly . . .Relatively, posted by tim360z on Nov 19, 2001

I was thinking more along the lines that if I bought a Timex for $20, and you bought a Rolex for $8,000, 25 years later my Timex is still ticking and your Rolex is sitting on a self not working doesn't necessarily mean you had bought the better watch because you paid $7,980 more for it.  No one will argue that you certainly bought the more expensive watch, with the expectation that the quality should be better, but that doesn't mean it keeps better time or will out last the $20 Timex.  Even if the Timex lasts only 5 years, I could buy 15 of them in a life time and still save thousands over you even if your one Rolex lasts 75 years.  Again, more does not always equate to better and is relative to status, price, purpose, and other factors that each person has to weigh.  A $3/hr translator may be very well better than a $20/hr translator although reason might lead us to believe that more is better. JFFT

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Re: Point exactly . . .Relatively mo..., posted by DE on Nov 20, 2001

Yeah DE,

  I agree and I would go with 20 Timex V. 1 Rolex. $$$ In any deal and in any price an item is not worth anything until...someone ponies-up the asking price.  Prior to that one can negotiate.  Like a house,  everyone can tell you its worth 1 million.  What if it sells for 700K??? But,  until someone actually comes and pays 1 million---the value is only a comparative abstraction.  Like 2 years ago a certain stock sold for say $200.  Now,  because of various factors it sells at $8.  Now,  what is the value of that stock item.  What was paid on the day it was sold. The most recent day.  And the price can go up.  And the price can slip.   Next year it could be worth say $100 or $1.  So comparative prices and real values fluctuate on supply and the demand.  If I am selling yo-yo's at $6.99 and nobody's buying.  Then I must do something.  I can either lower my asking price and try to sell more yo-yo's at a smaller profit margin...oooorrrr...I find a scheme to make yo-yo's more attractive and desirable---aka= marketing.  OR,  I take the very high road and I somehow make people beleive that my yo-yo's are...a special limited work of art.  And I sell much less yo-yo's---but I sell a few at $500 each.  So money and value and perceived value are all an abstraction...until someone lays the money down to buy it.  Thats it,  Best,  Tim

[LP]

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

...Jimmy, thats like comparing the cost of living in downtown San Francisco to Crawford, Texas. Of course it's gonna be more expensive in the city center than a rural area, where in the world isn't it?

And like other places, I certianly think the locals in Kiev appreciate those extra "tourist" dollars and think little as to how it effects those outside Kiev. (They're just looking out for number one again, kinda like *you* are in this case. :-)

Having said all that, I can't simply ignore your opinion. After all, you live there and have the experience. I'll mull this over and who knows? I've changed my thinking before on things....

I'm just not sure it's relevant to the issue at hand, or how it effects us who *don't* live there. I'll still help out those who strike me as unfortunate. It's true that "charity begins at home", but many people here in need are so because of their own doings. Where it isn't, many are still better off than over there, where it seems mostly out of their control.

To answer DE's question, it's people like you that are the reason I keep up with the board. There is nothing like real world, longterm experience, but I have to sift through any bias that may be added and, lol, add it to my own.

I think, as in many cases, DE and I are closer together on this than we are apart. It's just a matter of preferences and the situation at the time.

I still think many here are overly concernd with money and need to evaluate this more closely before they enter into the game.

[DE]

... in response to Well,...., posted by LP on Nov 18, 2001

This is DEFINATELY not for the underfunded!!!  It does take an enormous amount of long term financial resources, especially once she has arrived.  Granted you can save a few bucks here and there, but in the long run, you've got to accept that three or more trips will be involved, plus all the enormus initial costs of intergrating her into your life (clothes, dental, entertainment, wedding, English lessons) and you into hers (family communication, support, visits).  This ain't cheap by anyone's standards and if you're looking for cheap, go with AW.  Trying to go cheap here will cost you more in the long run.

[Dan]

... in response to Agree again...., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

What's going on ? --smile--

- Dan

[wsbill]

... in response to Agree again...., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

You don't have to be super rich to do this.  I swear alot of you guys seem to think this is only a rich mans adventure.

It probably is if you plan on taking her shopping every weekend. = Sugar Daddy.

But if you looking for a companion for life. Sticking all that money in her face and tossing it out the window with giving everyone a tip.

In America we have been sucker into this logic of giving away our hard earned money in the form of a tip.  This is pure and simple nonsense, totally wasteful and inflationairy.

The employees should be paid on a scale by the company on a reward system.  Having the customer foot the bill for good service is nonsenses... Where do you tip people most?

At Resturants.  When was the last time you tipped someone at McDonalds or Wal-Mart.  When you tip, your in the company of someone special and you want to relay to them via finanical means that your a nice guy.

To me, your a chump.  I do alot of work for some very rich people...and they rarely tip.  Because they know the value of the $$$, most people don't.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

..know the value of money, I wouldn't have any would I?

The value of the dollar does not change whether one is poor or not. Me thinks the rich people you do work for are cheap, plain and simple.

Wait staff greatly rely on tips to supplement their income, thats the way it is. McDonalds or Walmart??  lol...Your entire post reeks of the CB syndrome.

Oh, and btw, this chump's money is not very hard earned.
See, I get paid for what I know, not what I do. (Thats why you're working hard and the folks who don't tip you aren't.)

Btw, the benefits of being a sugar daddy aren't so bad, you oughta try it.

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

Bill,
You are nuts if you think most people don't tip (where appropriate).  Certainly people don't tip for a windsheild replacment, but while dinning, at a car wash, a bellhop, parking lot driver ect I would seriously doubt that the majority don't tip.  I am sure you get GREAT service from those I mentioned.  You are just justifying being a cheap arse.
KenC

[DE]

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

Did you have a bad day?  Read a little slower and repeat after me....I'm not a chump.....I'm not a chump.....

wsbill, I'd be more than happy to tip you if you replaced my windshield.  But maybe your service is not of such that deserves a tip?  And maybe you're making more than minimum wage?  Or maybe, you're just a chump?

I agree that there is way to much emphesis on tipping here in America.  In fact, the restruant industry DEMANDS it.  I don't like this "I'm entitled to a tip, and expect one" anymore than you do.  However, we are talking about Ukraine where tips are not expected.  It actually is an opportunity as LP elluded to, to give what amounts to so little to a waitress in Ukraine, or a cab driver, or a translator a little something extra for their service IF it is above the norm.  Believe it or not, they actually serve you [unlike many of the professions here that expect a tip (now we can wsbill to the list) yet view you as a burden] there in Ukraine and value you as a patron!

Earlier I look the opposite side of Cherokee only to try an add some balance to his post.  His statement elluding to someone seeking to find an interpreter for no more than $5/hour was being a tight wad needed some buffering.  For example, if I used the translator 14 hours per day for 14 days on a trip, $5/hr is way to much.  Most will do it for $20/day.  The point is, if I used your service for two weeks and contracted you for the two weeks to be available 14 hours a day and pay you $280, vs. if I used your service for $5/hr and used them for a total of 56 total hours over two weeks, I'd still be paying you $280, but you'd have more free time to contract with more of us Americans.  Therefore, slamming someone (or in general) for asking for an interpreter for $5/hr was BS.

Or, so I thought until I read your post.  Now, I understand what Cherokee was referring to.  As for the value of the dollar, or whether or not this is a rich man's adventure, I believe LP made that point as it is all relative and as Dan said, a personal choice.  If you're Bill Gates, this might be a poor man's adventure.  But it definately isn't for someone that lives pay check to pay check like many Americans do (including many single men).  The intent wasn't to imply it was a rich man's adventure (of course we might be considered rich by many to be able to spend money to meet women half way around the world), the point was that you should plan on investing significant funds to be well financed in case things don't go well on the first trip (which is totally stupid thinking that you'll meet Ms. Right in two weeks and even if you did, ask her to marry you).  I don't think anyone implied that you had to be "super rich", except you.

So, makes you wonder who the chump really is?  Repeat after me....I'm not a chump....I'm not a chump....