The Value of Marriage ...

[whitey]

Hey Whitey!  Don't take offense, but you have given me the opportunity to throw some crap out there!


 Whitey a lot of things CAN happen.  I haven't experienced any of this so called "feminist influence   for more than 30 seconds.  That is not to say I haven't caught sheet once in a while because I most certainly have, when I deserved it.  If I ever feel I am catching crap from a wife/woman for something unwarranted  then I stand up for myself on the spot.  .   That is THE END of that. 


My feeling is, that if we (husbands) don't want to have a wife disrespect/belittle/shirk responsibilities, then maybe we (husbands) need to act like men of old.  If we behave like wishy washy wussies, or do weak things, then perhaps a loss of respect is warranted.  Is that what feminism is within a relationship?   I feel that when I have caught crap for righteous reasons, it is a good thing, but when a man catches scorn from a bitter woman the onus is his to nip it in the bud.  If it is a perpetual problem that can't be corrected then leave the woman to wallow in her own caca. 


Not much is automatic and/or endless, we (husbands) are not  going to be treated like 'kings',  if our behavior is that of a jester (zon).  Women have options, and I'm fine with that because so do I and any other man.  I'm convinced all this groaning about 'feminism'is weak, if it exists it is because individual men have permitted it to happen.  What is on TV doesn't mean jacksquat to how our household is going to be. 


    I welcome opposing opinions!  [size=78%]         [/size]
 
Fathertime!

That's it FT!  I'm coming for you!  What's your address again?


It'll probably be a couple days before I can attempt to shoot a few holes in your argument.  The wifey needs some attention, and we have some friends from Bogota coming for dinner tomorrow night.


Cheers ... Whitey

[robert angel]

Zon, your perspective here is different than that of most members and by that fact alone, I consider it welcome. I do think most of your posts lack dimensionality and personally being aware that you've been in Colombia and a number of other interesting places, I wish you'd do more 'reporting' of the nuts and bolts of life down there--sharing your experiences on how things really work for you. But that's not really your style and it's your perogative anyway. Maybe that's why folks speculate so much on your lifestyle and activities--I really don't know.

Maybe some see you as an 'international man of mystery', maybe some see you as more like the wizard in the "Wizard of Oz", before they pulled the curtain back towards the end exposing his phoniness--hard to say....

 
There are any number of places in the world where, as you say, any man with a pulse, with a small wallet (perhaps small anything) can find a "garden variety wife." Yea, that's true. In a lot of places, you can get laid, find a maid, an attractive female companion, sometimes all in one person--all much more easily and more likely in the form of a younger, better looking lady than you'd be able to find 'back home'.

 
But as you also say:

 
>>>If the same caliber of men tried to date Colombian women that were attractive, educated, employed, and from a good family ... well, that is a different story entirely<<<
 
Therein lies the rub. A lot of us aren't into 'bottom fishing' for an easy lay for a long term prospect. And whether we're looking for a well educated, employed, upper strata lady or are content to take the time to sift thru the sands, looking for a gem of a gal from a less priviliged family and situation, the fact is, I believe, that it's going to take more of everything from a guy, including initiative, time (trips) experience, energy, MONEY, knowledge of the culture, language and using more of one's innate intelligence. 
 
So if you want to have a reasonably good chance of success (success as each person envisions it) you're going to have to put more of everything into it to know if the gal you've narrowed down to numero uno in your pursuit fits the bill, then be prepared to accept and pay that bill, come what may.
 
If the woman you choose came from some poor barrio, was neglected, beaten by family and had to steal to eat, it's very unlikely she's going to be an ideal companion down the line and sadly, the hotter looking she is, when combined with the issues from her earlier life, the worse it's likely to be. In such cases, as her looks have probably been a 'commodity' and really the only thing that gave her entree to better places and things, she knows how to use it and will never forget it. It's often like a time bomb.
 
The sad fact is that if someone was raised in an awful, abnormal way, she's going to have problems, much like post traumatic stress syndrome. It may not show early on, but chances are very high it will be problematic later on. My first wife was an orphan who lead a very austere, often forced to live an ultra religious life that lacked stability and it took a while for me to realize what a lack of a relatively 'normal' upbringing can do, so  I lived a similar nightmare.

 
Maybe, and it kind of sounds like it, you really don't want marriage as you have sometimes said. But maybe---and you did seem pretty smitten with that Ukrainian babe not too long ago,  part of you wants that, but you just are 'risk aversive.'
 
I know that you've waxed and waned on the merits of marriage for yourself and as of late, seeem intent on placing yourself as a polar opposite party to most members mindsets--guys who fancy the notion. I hope that's not sour grapes--not often, but sometimes, you go from being introspective and somewhat open to the notion, not ruling it out, to being steadfast against it.
 
That doesn't make you a bad guy--my best friend is approaching his mid 50's, and if anyone I know has the world on a string, it's this guy. He has his own one man, successful business, is living in a resort town in Florida, with lovely ladies sending him valentines and as he's still adament about never getting married--he always has been. He's got excellent taste in ladies and yet has probably seen more beaver than most river boat pilots have.
 
We have a great time getting together--riding his Harleys, fishing out of his boat, golfing, partying down a bit while doing the town, but when we're done doing 'our guy thing', he happily goes home to his hobbies, his beloved dog and relishes his independence. I also head home to very good, albiet different situation.
 
He's a great guy--I'd trust him with my last dime, we're like brothers, it's just different in how he likes his life structured. I'm happy, even envious at times for him and he's happy for me. My wife thinks he's a great fellow and he's like an Uncle to the kids.
 
My other best friend is an older guy who's married to a lovely Japanese lady and they have five children--all of them successful in their own right. Charlie is a retired Marine, a former sniper and Master Sergeant, who did 3 tours of duty in Nam, is politically to the right of Atilla the Hun and he's a practicing Budhist, so go figure! Imagine doing three combat tours in Vietnam with the name 'Charlie'! I just realized maybe that's why he got 3 Purple Hearts! (Actually One P.H.after the first, you just get Oak Clusters) An avid hunter, at least he helps me break down and clean my guns and keeps my freezer stocked with elk, deer and wild turkey!
 
Back to Zon--As for your statement:
 
>>>A little sobriety goes a long way, but I doubt very much if we'll see it here.  It is my view that members here wear rose color glasses most of the time.  Others are just too sensitive for anything but the most romanticism version of reality.<<<

 
I'd guess you're right that most of us are romantic types here, with visions--'ideals' if you will, about how good things can be. We're not afraid to take chances that many other men might not risk, but by and large, we do weigh the risks, looking out for red and yellow flags, while soliciting sage advice before committing. But lacking "sobriety"? Wearing  "rose colored glasses"? From the syntax of your writing and the herky jerky way your logic's running in your last few posts, it sounds like you're drinking a bit of the 'sparkling rose' to me!

[Zon]

I'd guess you're right that most of us are romantic types here, with visions--'ideals' if you will, about how good things can be. We're not afraid to take chances that many other men might not risk, but by and large, we do weigh the risks, looking out for red and yellow flags, while soliciting sage advice before committing. But lacking "sobriety"? Wearing  "rose colored glasses"? From the syntax of your writing and the herky jerky way your logic's running in your last few posts, it sounds like you're drinking a bit of the 'sparkling rose' to me!

One of the few things we control in our lives is that which we drink.  Tonight, it is scotch for me.   I do not share my personal experiences much here (it is best).  Some esoteric musings?  This is as good as place as any.  Do not read too much into my questions and observations.  They are true, but so are many others ... almost every new business fails; this is the first awareness of a man that desires success in business. The same should be true with most of life's worthy undertakings.

[beulah]

You are right behlah, zon doesn't know very much about effort/committment and that is why he is still home alone, while many of us have married and moved beyond the 1st grade basics he belabors.   


I'd wager what zon is going to do is something far more difficult and profound, then the rest of us pathetic wife-hunters.  In the future he will be  busy splashing around his porn money until his probing snout locates an innocent or gullible brown-skinned young woman to fall for his absurd act, which has fallen flat in the USA. 

The ultimate result will be a disadvantaged woman 'accidently' pregnant, without a committed husband and zon will be giddy and giggling just like he was last time he thought this happened.  That is much much better than all us rather committed men doing the best we can with our young well taken care of wives. 


For Zon this thread was always about undermining marriage, and the men that have partaken.  As usual he has not succeeded and plays the role of novice dodo.      [size=78%]  [/size]


Fathertime!

I don't know about his history, but his recent remarks make me wonder.

[Zon]

>>>If the same caliber of men tried to date Colombian women that were attractive, educated, employed, and from a good family ... well, that is a different story entirely<<<
 
Therein lies the rub. A lot of us aren't into 'bottom fishing' for an easy lay for a long term prospect. And whether we're looking for a well educated, employed, upper strata lady or are content to take the time to sift thru the sands, looking for a gem of a gal from a less priviliged family and situation, the fact is, I believe, that it's going to take more of everything from a guy, including initiative, time (trips) experience, energy, MONEY, knowledge of the culture, language and using more of one's innate intelligence. 

Yes, indeed - therein lies the rub!  Most men are NOT INTENTIONALLY "bottom fishing," yet without a decent knowledge and  command of the language and culture, without trusted contacts, without much time, and without UPPING one's game considerably ... bottom fishing is precisely what most foreign men must do (unknowingly, of course).

Is there a reason why, in Colombia for example the classes do not mix?!?!    At first this seem odd and offensive, but after some time and experience, one begins to see the reasons and logic.  Poorer classes, and desperate people are less trustworthy and have scars - most of the time these scars are deep.

Look, I have met SCORES of young women that are beautiful and smart.  If they were born in the USA, they would have been prom queens and university graduates; but because of geography and a lack of fortune, they are selling fruit in el centro - or worse.   Do you see the way they look at the police officers?  the local traficanos?  do you not see that there is a good reason for the fear?

Is is possible for a man to rely on an agency, or communication, or commitment to compensate these realities?   Is it possible for people to change, or heal themselves? Sometimes.

But, again, these are topics for people that want to go deeper into real issues.  Most here are content to stay on the nice glossy surface.  and for them ... this pursuit should be a PIECE OF CAKE.

Have fun boys exploring the great beyond. 

[fathertime]

Yes, indeed - therein lies the rub!  Most men are NOT INTENTIONALLY "bottom fishing," yet without a decent knowledge and  command of the language and culture, without trusted contacts, without much time, and without UPPING one's game considerably ... bottom fishing is precisely what most foreign men must do (unknowingly, of course).

Is there a reason why, in Colombia for example the classes do not mix?!?!    At first this seem odd and offensive, but after some time and experience, one begins to see the reasons and logic.  Poorer classes, and desperate people are less trustworthy and have scars - most of the time these   

Zonny don’t like it when men find a Colombian woman because it isn’t fair. He has been spending lots of time in Colombia drinking and acting like a fool, and now you guys that find women in weeks make him feel even more impotent.   


He likes to think of himself as the Paul Revere of the website:  “The lower class ladies are coming! The lower class ladies are coming”  You are better than that! You are better than that!

[Zon]

I have tried to be more soft spoken and mellow as of late ... Alas,

Zonny don’t like it when men find a Colombian woman because it isn’t fair

Evidently you have read a history book recently (which I imagine is a new past time for you)?  That is an ODD analogy. Benjamin Franklin! It does not fit in context, time, or place?   But, is is no more odd than any of the other times you dismiss anything that offends a HAPPILY MARRIED HUSBAND'S EAR - that truly appears to be your core identity.  And, you seek only like minded people, otherwise you become an argumentativeASS.   

You universally draw premature, partial, or faulty conclusions on everything "ZonZon".   You pretend to know me.  In fact, you pretend to know me better than I know myself!  All for what purpose?  To avoid second guessing, or looking any deeper down the rabbit hole than is necessary in order for you to achieve your short term objectives in the limited way you define them.  Look - knock yourself out. Enjoy your happiness ... but if you are in such marital bliss, why beat your chest with every other post?

hmmmmm.  Jesus, how many hours did you know the first Colombiana before you proposed?!?!   And, I bet she would have married you too!  It is not an insult, or compliment ... it is just a fact:) 

But, you will not allow yourself to see this, because you want to subscribe your current marriage the same NOBLE PROCESS and CONSENT that you imagine in a Victorian romance novel.  Well, if your white American butt did not hop on a plane to say hello, and goodbye ... if you did not have the power to magically and overnight re-make a woman's entire life AND future .... well, forgive me for suggesting that you would have lost much of your thunder.   You seem to prefer seeing the world in black and white, where you have already won the championship cup and are in endless celebration. And, every time I see you comment, I imagine you to be a very satisfied and happy version of AL BUNDY: Married with Children.  And your avatar does much to advance that image.

That I somehow feel resentful of others who find "eternal bliss and happiness" by getting MARRIED is preposterous!  Again, you like to pretend you know me!  You like to be omniscient in debates - yeah! that makes discussion easier for you, but at the cost of accuracy and truth - much less depth. 

Here is a common truth.  Often times, I know more about many strange undercurrents in these happy marriages than the happy husbands do.  AND I TRY NOT TO LOOK!    Case in point:  I met a friend from highschool yesterday, and he tells me a mutual friend just got married to a woman in Colombia.   Hmmm.  I ask a few questions.  And, I hear my friend say, Colombia is dangerous because in Baranquilla, his wife has to take off her gold and diamond jewelry!   Hmmm.   And, how long did they know each other before they were married?    And, how did they meet?   And, how many children does she have?   OK!  I see - good luck.

It happens all the time.

I have lived in these cities and watched the girls go out with their fiances and boyfriends, and X, Y, and Z ...  Mostly only the very attractive and hooked into the computer types.   Does this characterize ALL women?   Does this characterize ALL marriages? No - but many.   

To shed light on these deeper issues could be the purpose of a site like this, but such a thing has not materialized.   Indeed, perhaps the most valuable commercial member, Jamie  does not even post here anymore because of the excessive argumentation and narrow-mindedness. 

So, you have a place that is very homogeneous with narrow vision.  Congratulations.

[fathertime]

You seem to prefer seeing the world in black and white, where you have already won the championship cup and are in endless celebration. And, every time I see you comment, I imagine you to be a very satisfied and happy version of AL BUNDY: Married with Children.  And your avatar does much to advance that image.

Al bundy in an endless touchdown celebration.  WOOF! WOOF!
 Now are you going to start complaining about another avatar of mine? it is too bad you lacked the discipline to keep me on ignore mode! A theme with yoU?

I have tried to be more soft spoken and mellow as of late ... Alas,

 

You universally draw premature, partial, or faulty conclusions on everything "ZonZon".   You pretend to know me.  In fact, you pretend to know me better than I know myself!  All for what purpose?  To avoid second guessing, or looking any deeper down the rabbit hole than is necessary in order for you to achieve your short term objectives in the limited way you define them.  Look - knock yourself out. Enjoy your happiness ... but if you are in such marital bliss, why beat your chest with every other post?

I strongly reject most of what you have to say..so that makes me narrow minded or 'frozen in time' I think not..You complain that american women are this and that, then you go to colombia and complain that colombian women are this and that...you haven't had good experiences and that is YOUR FAULT only, not the ladies...Your contributions never take into account your own fatal faults and I like to point them out.

   Indeed, perhaps the most valuable commercial member, Jamie  does not even post here anymore because of the excessive argumentation and narrow-mindedness. 

 


So have you let Jamie know you are now his spokesperson?  He never said anything about the frequency of his posts, but his contributions are much much more relevant and powerful than yours! 

 

But, you will not allow yourself to see this, because you want to subscribe your current marriage the same NOBLE PROCESS and CONSENT that you imagine in a Victorian romance novel. 

.

i always get a chuckle when you are mention a 'Victorian marriage'or rigid and formal customs.  I think it helps you try to construct a strawman, one of your favorite pastimes.  I don't think there is a person on this site that anything like a 'Victorian marriage'.






You know you are always free to post your thoughts  laden with excuses and as I said earlier, I just enjoy pointing out your biases and discrepancies, which are constant.   It remains amazing that after all these years you have been unable to maintain any sort of relationship with one of these women, that continues to speak volumes. 






Fathertime! 

[benjio]

I have tried to be more soft spoken and mellow as of late ... Alas,

Evidently you have read a history book recently (which I imagine is a new past time for you)?  That is an ODD analogy. Benjamin Franklin! It does not fit in context, time, or place?   But, is is no more odd than any of the other times you dismiss anything that offends a HAPPILY MARRIED HUSBAND'S EAR - that truly appears to be your core identity.  And, you seek only like minded people, otherwise you become an argumentativeASS.   

You universally draw premature, partial, or faulty conclusions on everything "ZonZon".   You pretend to know me.  In fact, you pretend to know me better than I know myself!  All for what purpose?  To avoid second guessing, or looking any deeper down the rabbit hole than is necessary in order for you to achieve your short term objectives in the limited way you define them.  Look - knock yourself out. Enjoy your happiness ... but if you are in such marital bliss, why beat your chest with every other post?

hmmmmm.  Jesus, how many hours did you know the first Colombiana before you proposed?!?!   And, I bet she would have married you too!  It is not an insult, or compliment ... it is just a fact:) 

But, you will not allow yourself to see this, because you want to subscribe your current marriage the same NOBLE PROCESS and CONSENT that you imagine in a Victorian romance novel.  Well, if your white American butt did not hope on a plane to say hello, and goodbye ... if you did not have the power to magically and overnight re-make a woman's entire life and future .... well, forgive me for suggesting that you would have lost much of your thunder.   You seem to prefer seeing the world in black and white, where you have already won the championship cup and are in endless celebration. And, every time I see you comment, I imagine you to be a very satisfied and happy version of AL BUNDY: Married with Children.  And your avatar does much to advance that image.

That I somehow feel resentful of others who find "eternal bliss and happiness" by getting MARRIED is preposterous!  Again, you like to pretend you know me!  You like to be omniscient in debates - yeah! that makes discussion easier for you, but at the cost of accuracy and truth - much less depth. 

Here is a common truth.  Often times, I know more about many strange undercurrents in these happy marriages than the happy husbands do.  AND I TRY NOT TO LOOK!    Case in point:  I met a friend from highschool yesterday, and he tells me a mutual friend just got married to a woman in Colombia.   Hmmm.  I ask a few questions.  And, I hear my friend say, Colombia is dangerous because in Baranquilla, his wife has to take off her gold and diamond jewelry!   Hmmm.   And, how long did they know each other before they were married?    And, how did they meet?   And, how many children does she have?   OK!  I see - good luck.

It happens all the time.

I have lived in these cities and watched the girls go out with their fiances and boyfriends, and X, Y, and Z ...  Mostly only the very attractive and hooked into the computer types.   Does this characterize ALL women?   Does this characterize ALL marriages? No - but many.   

To shed light on these deeper issues could be the purpose of a site like this, but such a thing has not materialized.   Indeed, perhaps the most valuable commercial member, Jamie  does not even post here anymore because of the excessive argumentation and narrow-mindedness. 

So, you have a place that is very homogeneous with narrow vision.  Congratulations.

Mmmmmmm....
 
Valid points Zon. I've gotten similar impressions from dating and seeing tons of other gringos date SOTB. I think it's common knowledge that the average gringo is not traveling to Latin America with "Estrato 20" Women in their crosshairs. Those expectations lean more towards the side of impossible, much less unrealistic. On the other side of the coin though, a man can dwell on what his wife's motivations were for going out with him in the first place, or he can appreciate the fact that she eventually grew to love him (if that's actually the case). Most of the women any gringo will date in Latin America will be from a poorer background, and poverty in that particular part of the world usually goes hand and hand with a lot of undesireable personality characteristics. However, there are some very strong traits that come from being poor as well. A woman that comes from $#!T will definitely always be more appreciative of anything you do for her. She'll be more frugal. She'll have a thorough understanding of the fact that life isn't always peaches and cream, and you can't always get what you want.
 
Now let's take a girl from a more affluent background in Colombia just for $H!T$ and giggles. Even if she was actually interested in you, and she eventually grew to love you, how many do you think would be willing to sacrifice their quality of life to be with you? How many could accept that Daddy's credit card was going away? How would her family react to her marrying someone they perceived to be from a lower social class? You asked the question, "Is there a reason why classes don't mix in Colombia?" I think we as men that have all spent time in Latin America know very well what those reasons are. One taking advantage of that situation doesn't necessarily define them as desperate or unrealistic. A man just has to know himself and Latin America well enough to make informed decisions.
 
I more than anyone here have pointed out the many downsides to dating women in Colombia, especially along the coast. But I always included the side note that there are still plenty of good women there. I'm a logical person. I wouldn't continue to return if I thought finding what I'm looking for wasn't likely. But I also understand the risk and I realize that initial choices can't be made with the eyes or the heart. They have to be made with the mind. Which perspective a man chooses to focus on after reading discussion forums like this is his decision. I'd like to think my approach has always been a balanced one, even though it may seem to lean one way or the other depending on the tone of the thread. If a man undertakes an endeavour as unpredictable and unfamiliar as wife-hunting SOTB for the first time without doing some thorough research, in my opinion he has only himself to blame for whatever happens. There's too much information on this and on other sites for a guy to be taken by a girl 7000 miles away. I'm not going the beat the dead "There's tons of women that are not wife material in Colombia" horse anymore. Anyone that reads this board and doesn't get it by now probably shouldn't hop on a plane.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is what other options do we have? For men that are unsatisfied with women in the U.S. and have the juevos to start searching abroad, what do you suggest? The rich girls aren't joining agencies. They aren't leaving home. They aren't lowering their expectations. The middle class barely exist. Does a man tell himself, "Poor girls only want me for a better life, rich girls don't want me at all!" Then just give up?

[Zon]

I guess what I'm trying to say is what other options do we have? For men that are unsatisfied with women in the U.S. and have the juevos to start searching abroad, what do you suggest? The rich girls aren't joining agencies. They aren't leaving home. They aren't lowering their expectations. The middle class barely exist. Does a man tell himself, "Poor girls only want me for a better life, rich girls don't want me at all!" Then just give up?

Well, at least we are now acknowledging the truth of things. I always appreciate your balanced and well informed comments.

[fathertime]

Mmmmmmm....
 
Valid points Zon. I've gotten similar impressions from dating and seeing tons of other gringos date SOTB. I think it's common knowledge that the average gringo is not traveling to Latin America with "Estrato 20" Women in their crosshairs. Those expectations lean more towards the side of impossible, much less unrealistic. On the other side of the coin though, a man can dwell on what his wife's motivations were for going out with him in the first place, or he can appreciate the fact that she eventually grew to love him (if that's actually the case). Most of the women any gringo will date in Latin America will be from a poorer background, and poverty in that particular part of the world usually goes hand and hand with a lot of undesireable personality characteristics. However, there are some very strong traits that come from being poor as well. A woman that comes from $#!T will definitely always be more appreciative of anything you do for her. She'll be more frugal. She'll have a thorough understanding of the fact that life isn't always peaches and cream, and you can't always get what you want.
 
Now let's take a girl from a more affluent background in Colombia just for $H!T$ and giggles. Even if she was actually interested in you, and she eventually grew to love you, how many do you think would be willing to sacrifice their quality of life to be with you? How many could accept that Daddy's credit card was going away? How would her family react to her marrying someone they perceived to be from a lower social class? You asked the question, "Is there a reason why classes don't mix in Colombia?" I think we as men that have all spent time in Latin America know very well what those reasons are. One taking advantage of that situation doesn't necessarily define them as desperate or unrealistic. A man just has to know himself and Latin America well enough to make informed decisions.
 
I more than anyone here have pointed out the many downsides to dating women in Colombia, especially along the coast. But I always included the side note that there are still plenty of good women there. I'm a logical person. I wouldn't continue to return if I thought finding what I'm looking for wasn't likely. But I also understand the risk and I realize that initial choices can't be made with the eyes or the heart. They have to be made with the mind. Which perspective a man chooses to focus on after reading discussion forums like this is his decision. I'd like to think my approach has always been a balanced one, even though it may seem to lean one way or the other depending on the tone of the thread. If a man undertakes an endeavour as unpredictable and unfamiliar as wife-hunting SOTB for the first time without doing some thorough research, in my opinion he has only himself to blame for whatever happens. There's too much information on this and on other sites for a guy to be taken by a girl 7000 miles away. I'm not going the beat the dead "There's tons of women that are not wife material in Colombia" horse anymore. Anyone that reads this board and doesn't get it by now probably shouldn't hop on a plane.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is what other options do we have? For men that are unsatisfied with women in the U.S. and have the juevos to start searching abroad, what do you suggest? The rich girls aren't joining agencies. They aren't leaving home. They aren't lowering their expectations. The middle class barely exist. Does a man tell himself, "Poor girls only want me for a better life, rich girls don't want me at all!" Then just give up?

 
 This is a balanced post I can get behind!
 
Most of the 1^st grade things zon says I don’t even acknowledge that I agree with because they are already givens. 
 
Bottom line is I don’t think it make much difference whether a woman becomes attracted to a husband because of his barrel chest or because of his ability to elevate a woman’s lifestyle.  Having both   (like me)   is a bonus! Jajaja.   What is more important is what takes place after the attraction is established, which is something that zon will never experience the way he is whining/going.  Being willing to meet the needs cheerfully (usually)goes a long way towards a complete attraction, maybe this attraction comes a little farther down the line after a history of being a good man, but that is ok.


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Well, at least we are now acknowledging the truth of things. 

Wow is that the 1st time you read that 'very wealthy women' aren't usually joining agencies?  Back to PreK for you!


Fathertime! 

[Zon]

I don’t think it make much difference whether a woman becomes attracted to a husband because of his barrel chest or because of his ability to elevate a woman’s lifestyle.  Having both (like me) is a bonus! Jajaja.   What is more important is what takes place after the attraction is established, which is something that zon will never experience the way he is whining/going.  Being willing to meet the needs cheerfully (usually)goes a long way towards a complete attraction, maybe this attraction comes a little farther down the line after a history of being a good man,

Did you just write this?!   Please re-read it under a bright light and understand that which you just said.

If I distantly  suggested such a thing, you would have argued and insulted me for 20 pages.   Yet, here we are in complete agreement at last.  HOWEVER, I THINK IT IS DAMN IMPORTANT WHY A WOMAN IS ATTRACTED TO A MAN, and if it is because a man is cheerfully popping out the AMEX ... well, then damn it that is what we are going to call it.

In any case, you seem happy; so God bless you.

[fathertime]

Did you just write this?!   Please re-read it under a bright light and understand that which you just said.

If I distantly  suggested such a thing, you would have argued and insulted me for 20 pages.   Yet, here we are in complete agreement at last.  HOWEVER, I THINK IT IS DAMN IMPORTANT WHY A WOMAN IS ATTRACTED TO A MAN, and if it is because a man is cheerfully popping out the AMEX ... well, then damn it that is what we are going to call it.

In any case, you seem happy; so God bless you.

This has been my point of view…and if you think it makes a big difference whether an attraction (female to male) starts out as physical vs something else then go ahead and explain why.    But if you are going to distort it by talking about ‘amex’ cards then forget it, nobody is saying a relationship based on shopping at Nordstroms is even remotely real.  Needs and Nordstoms are two entirely different things.   I have my doubts you can make a point without referring to nonexistent strawmen arguments.

Fathertime! 

Fathertime! 

[Calipro]

Mmmmmmm....
 
Valid points Zon. I've gotten similar impressions from dating and seeing tons of other gringos date SOTB. I think it's common knowledge that the average gringo is not traveling to Latin America with "Estrato 20" Women in their crosshairs. Those expectations lean more towards the side of impossible, much less unrealistic. On the other side of the coin though, a man can dwell on what his wife's motivations were for going out with him in the first place, or he can appreciate the fact that she eventually grew to love him (if that's actually the case). Most of the women any gringo will date in Latin America will be from a poorer background, and poverty in that particular part of the world usually goes hand and hand with a lot of undesireable personality characteristics. However, there are some very strong traits that come from being poor as well. A woman that comes from $#!T will definitely always be more appreciative of anything you do for her. She'll be more frugal. She'll have a thorough understanding of the fact that life isn't always peaches and cream, and you can't always get what you want.
 
Now let's take a girl from a more affluent background in Colombia just for $H!T$ and giggles. Even if she was actually interested in you, and she eventually grew to love you, how many do you think would be willing to sacrifice their quality of life to be with you? How many could accept that Daddy's credit card was going away? How would her family react to her marrying someone they perceived to be from a lower social class? You asked the question, "Is there a reason why classes don't mix in Colombia?" I think we as men that have all spent time in Latin America know very well what those reasons are. One taking advantage of that situation doesn't necessarily define them as desperate or unrealistic. A man just has to know himself and Latin America well enough to make informed decisions.
 
I more than anyone here have pointed out the many downsides to dating women in Colombia, especially along the coast. But I always included the side note that there are still plenty of good women there. I'm a logical person. I wouldn't continue to return if I thought finding what I'm looking for wasn't likely. But I also understand the risk and I realize that initial choices can't be made with the eyes or the heart. They have to be made with the mind. Which perspective a man chooses to focus on after reading discussion forums like this is his decision. I'd like to think my approach has always been a balanced one, even though it may seem to lean one way or the other depending on the tone of the thread. If a man undertakes an endeavour as unpredictable and unfamiliar as wife-hunting SOTB for the first time without doing some thorough research, in my opinion he has only himself to blame for whatever happens. There's too much information on this and on other sites for a guy to be taken by a girl 7000 miles away. I'm not going the beat the dead "There's tons of women that are not wife material in Colombia" horse anymore. Anyone that reads this board and doesn't get it by now probably shouldn't hop on a plane.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is what other options do we have? For men that are unsatisfied with women in the U.S. and have the juevos to start searching abroad, what do you suggest? The rich girls aren't joining agencies. They aren't leaving home. They aren't lowering their expectations. The middle class barely exist. Does a man tell himself, "Poor girls only want me for a better life, rich girls don't want me at all!" Then just give up?

I get dizzy reading all these highly analytical posts.


It's really pretty simple....if you really want to get married and you aren't....it's because you aren't meeting women that you want to marry or the women you meet don't want to marry you. Or maybe it's a deadly combination of the two. LOL!!!


At any rate there are only a few ways to handle this dilemma....lower your standards....some how make yourself more appealing to the opposite sex or spend a few more years hunting for the perfect wife until you realize that the older you get the harder it becomes to attract highly attractive women. jajaja


I just read these posts and have to wonder if you guys really take your wedding vows that seriously....or is it just a fear of crashing and burning that stops you from pulling the trigger.


Using logic to try and select the perfect wife is a fool's game if you ask me.....if you want to use logic....use it  to figure out how much a divorce will cost you in dollars and cents and then ask yourself if spending a few years living with this super hot...fun loving chick is worth it....keeping in mind that there is always a slim chance that it will last forever.


There are plenty of ways of protecting yourself from financial loss if you plan ahead before getting married....after you have that covered...you have to ask yourself what is stopping you from rolling the dice....I mean if you really want to be married.....I think you should just do it.


I'd love to see a study that pit guys that were really analytical about choosing a wife and the guys that just married the hottest chick that rocked his world in the bedroom and see just how much more longevity the analytical guys ended up with or better yet which guys were more likely to leave their wives then the other way around.


I think guys should just worry about what they can have any hope of controlling and that is themselves by picking a woman that they hope they'll never want to leave.....and just pray that the chick is able to do the same.


Once you have your assets covered and setup house in a no fault no alimony state...then the only thing you have to keep track of is what you are spending  month to month to keep things cool at home...if it seems like a bad deal you always have the option to call it quits at any time. And even if it ends up costing you a little bit to get her out of your life....you'll sleep well at night knowing that the opportunity costs of her being in a dead end relationship for years (in her early 20's) is a hell of a lot higher than the same few years you spent in your mid forties.


Oh that's right you are only in your 30's....well if you wait until your 40's....you'll wonder what you were so worried about even if it doesn't end so well. jajaja

[V_Man]

I get dizzy reading all these highly analytical posts.


It's really pretty simple....if you really want to get married and you aren't....it's because you aren't meeting women that you want to marry or the women you meet don't want to marry you. Or maybe it's a deadly combination of the two. LOL!!!


-snip-


I think guys should just worry about what they can have any hope of controlling and that is themselves by picking a woman that they hope they'll never want to leave.....and just pray that the chick is able to do the same.

-snip-

Exactly!!!


Except that over here pre-nups are about as valuble as toilet paper.
And also many guys dont have a burning need to be married for the very good reason that they have a 50% chance of having the next 20 years of their life go down the toilet.


Over here any man willing to get married is already in the extreme risk taker category.


Hence "...if [size=78%]you really want to get married.[/size][size=78%]."[/size]


I do think that a bloke can make sure he learns what he can about his bride to be so that he can make as informed decision as he can. However I have read on here several times about guys who married women and later these women changed dramatically. I have also read a few cases where the guy was hiding significant issues about his life until she came and lived with him.


At the end of the day marriage only works if each person is willing to place the needs of the other person above their own desires. Forever. If you are not into that, or she is not into that - you should not get married anyway.

[benjio]

Cali,
 
LMAO!!!! I think you misunderstood my post. I was just offering a counterpoint to Zon's comments. I'm a lot more laid back than I lead on. The logical aspect lies within the realization that what you're looking for can be found anywhere in the world if getting married is what you really want. No person can rule out Colombia, Brazil, the U.S. or any other God foresaken place as somewhere they might find a woman that will sit your arse down. I don't think marriage within itself is something anyone could call logical. As human beings (especially men), it's not in our nature to stay with one person our entire lives. That takes the desire to do so, effort and sacrifice. Some are willing, others aren't. Whatever floats your boat. I agree with you...the $HIT is pretty simple. For me, hot or not, I'm looking for a best friend. In life we don't choose best friends like we choose women. We just happen upon them, things click, and the next thing you know you've been drinking with a guy three times a week for the last 20 years. That's why I'm not in a hurry. That's why I've never seen anything wrong with dating and continuing to explore options. If it happens, it happens. AWESOME!!! If not, I can guarantee you as an old man I'll have plenty of great stories to tell anyone that's willing to listen...and 0 regrets! I wouldn't ever claim that the advantages of being single outweigh those of hooking on the ol' ball and chain or vice versa. It all depends on the man, and at what point in his life his runs across that special someone. It's really all about timing.
 
I don't have to worry about the cost of divorce. I live in the Latin America and probably will for the rest of my life. My assets are in the U.S. Good luck to any woman trying to get their hands on them from here. If I have a kid with a girl here I'd obviously take very good care of her and the little one, but it won't be one of those U.S. divorces with mandatory alimony and all that jazz. I'm just like you my good friend...enjoying the ride and wishing it could last forever...married or not. 

[fathertime]

  If not, I can guarantee you as an old man I'll have plenty of great stories to tell anyone that's willing to listen...and 0 regrets! 
 

No offense, one thing that really cracks me up about you nowadays is that you are the BIGGEST exaggerator of all time! [size=78%]  [/size]


Now about regrets,  i'm pretty damn sure (guarantee) you will have a few because I think the reality is everyone does.  I think a reasonable goal is to not have any MAJOR regrets!  There is no need to dwell on regrets though, usually people do the best they can at the time and if they fvuk up well then that is how it goes.  I could probably rattle off a dozen things I would have done differently, but what difference does it make now?  One benefit of a regret is it can enable a more authentic level of communication to someone else who is about to make the same misjudgment.     

Fathertime!  [size=78%] [/size]

[Researcher]

Alot of guys are happy settling down and getting married. It'll be 6 years married for me this year and I still feel like marrying a foreign woman was one of the best things I've ever done. If some want to sit back and ponder the meaning of life then Rock On! Alot of guys just aren't interested in becoming "the most interesting man in the world".:



Stay thirsty my friend! HAHAHA!

[V_Man]

-snip-

I don't have to worry about the cost of divorce. I live in the Latin America and probably will for the rest of my life. My assets are in the U.S. Good luck to any woman trying to get their hands on them from here. If I have a kid with a girl here I'd obviously take very good care of her and the little one, but it won't be one of those U.S. divorces with mandatory alimony and all that jazz. I'm just like you my good friend...enjoying the ride and wishing it could last forever...married or not. 

There is one smart bastard! 

[Zon]

As I read through this post again this morning, finally there is a fluid exchange of ideas from a variety of experience people that creates good food for thought.

1, Just to clear things up, I do not have an agenda for, or against, any one, or any way of life.   I just enjoy considering all the possibilities as I walk down the buffet of life sampling that which interests me.  The entire notion that people argue or insult is about a person's food choice in idiotic to me.  I would rather just eat, and perhaps exchange ideas on how the food tastes with others.  That is my purpose and approach.

2, Calipro always seems to clear things up because he takes the gravity out of these discussions, and reminds everybody that there is nothing wrong with living a good, full life ... and banginghotchicks too

3, Benijo seems to be like me (albeit a younger and more politically correct version).  One who searches and considers things, as much as he lives in the moment. 

4, If FT was not such a cheerleader for one thing, and a crusader against another, we would see that we all share a similar foundation of opinions.  It is our manner, objectives, or the lack of viewing marriage as a necessity that creates division.

REGARDING BENIJO'S COMMENT - "Zero Regret" ... it speaks to a philosophy of experimentation, and trail and error.  It suggests the willingness and courage to change and expand as a human being, and as a man.  It is not a black and white comment about never wishing one behaved in a different way, or that some circumstances always came to a favorable conclusion.   (FT, this is precisely the type of brittle thinking you demonstrate all the frickin time.  Really, dude, you could stand becoming more flexible in thought.)

[Researcher]

 

I don't know what the big deal is. Just pick out the woman with the nicest rack and put a ring on her finger.Then it is happily ever after....done.... 

[fathertime]

As I read through this post again this morning, finally there is a fluid exchange of ideas from a variety of experience people that creates good food for thought.

1, Just to clear things up, I do not have an agenda for, or against, any one, or any way of life.   I just enjoy considering all the possibilities as I walk down the buffet of life sampling that which interests me.  The entire notion that people argue or insult is about a person's food choice in idiotic to me.  I would rather just eat, and perhaps exchange ideas on how the food tastes with others.  That is my purpose and approach.

2, Calipro always seems to clear things up because he takes the gravity out of these discussions, and reminds everybody that there is nothing wrong with living a good, full life ... and banginghotchicks too

3, Benijo seems to be like me (albeit a younger and more politically correct version).  One who searches and considers things, as much as he lives in the moment. 

4, If FT was not such a cheerleader for one thing, and a crusader against another, we would see that we all share a similar foundation of opinions.  It is our manner, objectives, or the lack of viewing marriage as a necessity that creates division.
 

Have you now becoming the site narrator, interpreting, condensing, and wrapping up everybody’s ideas? 

Generally speaking, it doesn’t matter to me one way or another if a person is married or not.  I comment on your lifestyle and not Calipro’s or others because it is YOU that appears to be unhappy in your current life.    I figure the other guys are pretty much doing what they want to do.  That is how it comes out through the writings, so don’t bother to now say how delighted you are.  IT is your fault, and you continue to blame women.  How often do you read Calipro blaming and whining about women?

 

REGARDING BENIJO'S COMMENT - "Zero Regret" ... it speaks to a philosophy of experimentation, and trail and error.  It suggests the willingness and courage to change and expand as a human being, and as a man.  It is not a black and white comment about never wishing one behaved in a different way, or that some circumstances always came to a favorable conclusion.   (FT, this is precisely the type of brittle thinking you demonstrate all the frickin time.  Really, dude, you could stand becoming more flexible in thought.)

Oh so I'm brittle in thought because I define 'regret'different than somebody else does.   So it sounds to me like YOU are the one brittle and mired in philosophy of thought because you can not see that is more than one way to define having regret.    This is not very important to me, I just felt like giving Benjio some light hearted crap about his penchant for exaggerating a weeee bit. 
Fathertime!   

[Ray]

Zon, you crack me up.
 
Despite your repeated denial and proclamations to the contrary, it is obvious to any fool thet you are on a anti-marriage crusade with your perpetual rants.
 
The fact is that we don't care if you are afraid of marriage or if you never do marry, so why not give it a rest already!?
 
SHEESH!
 
 
Ray
 
 

[mambocowboy]

who really cares if some middle aged man is still considering whether or not to get married. Enough navel gazing already. Life's too short.