Ready to get started but a few concerns...

[jm21-2]

Just saw a very upset man venting at the judge as his pre-nup was declared invalid for a very technical reason...unlike other contracts judges seem very willing to throw out a pre-nup for just about anything. And all the times people asked me to write a pre-nup for them it basically just covered what the law was going to do anyways.


Only real way to avoid some of the nastiness of a divorce is to marry a woman who makes about the same as you and is a saver, not a spender. Would help if you lived in different houses, kept different accounts, and didn't have children together.

[dbmcguinness]

jm,
in your experience what percentage of prenups are contested for validity?  If you fell into the fortunate percentage that didn't have their prenup even contested then you do ok.
in your experience what percentage of prenups that are contested are found invalid?  Again if you fell into the fortunate percentage that didn't have theirs found invalid you are ok.
Of course some are going to be drafted improperly with the result that they can be found to be invalid.   Also curious what state you are in.  I practice in Colorado.
Robert,  I agree it could be counterproductive if you drafted a draconian prenup that was going to leave your ex on the streets penniless, as the Judge should declare it unconscionable and then stick it to you.  But a fair prenup has a great chance of not being contested for validity and if contested being upheld anyway; this is in my limited experience in one state and state laws vary on the basis for declaring one invalid.
The expense of having a prenup drafted and upheld is miniscule compared to the cost of a divorce, where everything is on the table and litigated (my guess would be 10% of the cost, not counting what you saved by virtue of having it done).  I think that would hold true regardless of the state.
Someone that wanted a valid prenup would need an attorney to draft it, and hire an attorney for the woman to have her attorney review and revise and sign off on also.
 
 
 
 

[jm21-2]

jm,
in your experience what percentage of prenups are contested for validity?  If you fell into the fortunate percentage that didn't have their prenup even contested then you do ok.
in your experience what percentage of prenups that are contested are found invalid?  Again if you fell into the fortunate percentage that didn't have theirs found invalid you are ok.
Of course some are going to be drafted improperly with the result that they can be found to be invalid.   Also curious what state you are in.  I practice in Colorado.
Robert,  I agree it could be counterproductive if you drafted a draconian prenup that was going to leave your ex on the streets penniless, as the Judge should declare it unconscionable and then stick it to you.  But a fair prenup has a great chance of not being contested for validity and if contested being upheld anyway; this is in my limited experience in one state and state laws vary on the basis for declaring one invalid.
The expense of having a prenup drafted and upheld is miniscule compared to the cost of a divorce, where everything is on the table and litigated (my guess would be 10% of the cost, not counting what you saved by virtue of having it done).  I think that would hold true regardless of the state.
Someone that wanted a valid prenup would need an attorney to draft it, and hire an attorney for the woman to have her attorney review and revise and sign off on also.

I'm in Washington. If they're done right here they're usually enforceable from what i can tell but if I had a case where one spouse was from another country and spoke English as a foreign language I would be really cautious. Definitely would want her to have her own attorney, who was not paid directly by the American spouse, and a certified translator. I have tried to explain WA divorce law to women who are from other countries and it is really, really hard sometimes. You would have to pay me a lot of money to sit down and try to explain to a newly arrived Filipina the legal effect of a pre-nup. I'm not going to risk a potential bar complaint or malpractice case for an hour or half-hour of pay.


Probably about 90% of my practice is divorce cases and I have only had a pre-nup involved in one case. I've been practicing here for a bit over 3 years now, handled several hundred divorces, probably had a couple thousand consultations, and it's only come up that one time. So hard to give any sort of reliable statistic. It was enforceable in that case but hardly did anything, Maybe saved a couple hundred bucks in litigation expenses. Had basically laid out that a house he had owned before the marriage was his property which is the law anyway.


If you are planning to marry a very conservative/traditional woman and have her move halfway across the world (and not saying you or anyone else necessarily is, but seemed like the OP was contemplating it), then it is probably not worth it to broach the topic. For the little harm it saves you it could really stir up some trouble.

EDIT: Should clarify that when I said "if they're done right," I mean in conformance with federal/state statutes and caselaw. That means it has to be fair which makes it not that great at protecting future assets in a case where one spouse has the vast majority of the income, which seem to be the typical case where a guy is scared and wants a prenup. I could imagine some scenarios where one might be useful in keeping certain hard to divide assets separate, but the vast majority of people aren't in that situation. And those who are in that situation and who are on relatively equal footing with each other tend to work things out anyways. Besides, the big nasty problems generally have to do with kids. I just never really have seen them as being that useful in the grand scheme of things for the vast majority of people and the type of girl I wanted to marry would not like the idea.

[Jeff S]

In California, a community property state, a prenup cannot be used to get around the community property, child support, or alimony laws. The only thing it can do is reinforce established separate property laws, and then only if you follow the law for keeping separate property separate. You don't need a prenup for that though, only the knowledge of how to keep separate property separate - so a conversation with a competent attorney is advised. Here in CA, if you're not wealthy and have complex business holdings or have big assets with several exes and children from other spouses, it is practically meaningless. Fortunately for me, we acquired our assets and established our business holdings after I was married for the first time, so she is absolutely entitled to half of everything we own.

Every few months on this board, someone brings up a prenup as an easy way to keep that foreign green card shark from dumping the dumb gringo, cleaning out his savings account and hooking back up with her former Latin lover the day after her green card arrives. It just doesn't work that way in real life. Not to say dbm, that you are making that claim, and you may have a valid reason for suggesting it, just saying in the 12 years or so I've been posting here, I've heard it suggested more than a couple dozen times by those who have no clue what they're talking about.

[Jhengsman]

The Philippines is a relatively very religious country, predominantly Catholic, over 90% Christian, with most of the remainder Muslim. Filipina Catholics are generally very tolerant of other religious beliefs but atheism just isn’t going to fly. At the minimum, you had better at least believe in and have respect for a higher power or you are begging for trouble. The first time you open your mouth and state that there is no God and you don’t want your children exposed to that religious hogwash, your marriage is going to be in trouble.
　
You’re not just asking your future Filipina wife to be tolerant of your personal views on God and religion, but you are going against her core beliefs. As Robert mentioned earlier, even the streetwalkers believe in God and still make an attempt to practice their religion to a degree.
　
If you are still in the same place religiously as you were a couple of years ago, then do yourself and your future wife a big favor and marry an atheist like yourself. This is just too big of an issue to attempt to overcome in a marriage. This is the main reason why I recommended that you try another less-religious Asian country.
　

While we were in the LDR phase I was watching as many Filipino films as I could get my hands on, from art house independent to the teen romantic comedies. That scene of the hookers going to mass or even adulterous couples going to mass together was a common sight. I first saw it in a Vilma Santos, Christopher de Leon film  while he was cheating with her and her character knew it from the 80s


Although my brother in law married a Muslim I would think for most that percentage of the population is cut out for most foriengners. Among the non Catholic Christians about half are INC members. I have run into Seventh Day Adventists who have seem to found a colony where they play matchmaker for one another but if you are looking for a specific faith beside Catholics or INC you have a better chance finding a ladyboy by mistake. There are many Protestant churches in the Manila area, large and storefronts but unless you go to one of the evangelist sites on a missionary trip  meeting someone at church in a few weeks on a standard visitors visa would seem to be a non-starter.

[dbmcguinness]

Hi Jeff,
thanks for the info on California prenups law. 
Things are quite different in Colorado, here alimony and property acquired after the marriage can both be addressed in the prenup.  I feel like that is really a shame about the alimony there, that is one of the aspects of divorces that seems the most unfair to me.
Sorry to bring prenup discussions into this, I need to work on my pessimistic nature.  But after litigating numerous divorces, I couldn't really see entering a marriage without one.
 

[Bob_S]

I thought finding less-Westernized women was pretty much the entire point of this forum.  I've seen numerous threads asking whether women will become Westernized when living in the US, or complaining about the local women in the posters' home countries.

But there's a logical fallacy there.  You don't want a woman from a Westernized country because Westernized  women are undesirable.  That's begging the question of just what constitutes a Westernized country.  Take for example, China.  How is China, a country that pretty much practices the same religion it's had for the past 3,000 years and uses the same language they've had for more than 5,000 years, MORE Westernized than the Philippines that practices a religion imported by Westerners 500 years ago and has as a default 2nd language a language imported by Westerners 100 years ago?  That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

I just see you as trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.  I'm making no value judgement regarding your preferences.  The things you don't like about the Phils are probably things I would not like about the Phils.  But rather than pounding mercilessly at that peg, I just found a better fit.  If you are still dead set on going the the Philippines and are going to use any sort of dating site, you'd probably do yourself a favor by specifying that you are looking for an atheist lady.  That'll at least improve the fit, somewhat, if not your odds.

[FlyingMoose]

But there's a logical fallacy there.  You don't want a woman from a Westernized country because Westernized  women are undesirable.  That's begging the question of just what constitutes a Westernized country.  Take for example, China.  How is China, a country that pretty much practices the same religion it's had for the past 3,000 years and uses the same language they've had for more than 5,000 years, MORE Westernized than the Philippines that practices a religion imported by Westerners 500 years ago and has as a default 2nd language a language imported by Westerners 100 years ago?  That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

I just see you as trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.  I'm making no value judgement regarding your preferences.  The things you don't like about the Phils are probably things I would not like about the Phils.  But rather than pounding mercilessly at that peg, I just found a better fit.  If you are still dead set on going the the Philippines and are going to use any sort of dating site, you'd probably do yourself a favor by specifying that you are looking for an atheist lady.  That'll at least improve the fit, somewhat, if not your odds.

I never said China was more Westernized.  The biggest disadvantage of China is the lack of English speakers.  And possibly the "tiger-mom / tiger-wife" attitude.  I would rate China as less Westernized, and especially Americanized, than the Philippines.  Also, in my experience (going to Binghamton University, with a large portion of Chinese students), Chinese women are more shy, and since I'm somewhat shy also, I don't know that it would be a very good match.  Women from the Philippines seem much more sociable.


I'm reconsidering other countries based on this thread (which is the reason I started it, I didn't do it just to rant).  I think the biggest thing is that I'm scared of the language issue.  I don't have the time or energy to learn Chinese.  I got a home-study course and found it almost impossible.  I've never been good at foreign languages, and Chinese is considered one of the most difficult.  I don't think I'd even be that good at Spanish, even though I took it in school.


For the record, on all the sites I've tried, searches for atheists in the Phils return 0 matches or a few who mention God in their profile and somehow picked the wrong choice for religion.


It seems like the Phils is a good match for most people in the US (since they speak English and have a similar religion).  There doesn't seem to be as good of a match for someone like me who doesn't share those beliefs, so whatever country I choose will be a compromise.  I guess I need to figure out what I want to compromise on, being unable to communicate with my wife, or not sharing her beliefs in the same deity.  The former just seems like more of a problem to me.


I wouldn't mind converting to a more Eastern type of religion, which seem to be more about being at peace with oneself, rather than a Western religion, which seem to be more about controlling people.  (If you deny that God-based religions are about controlling people, consider that a wife is likely to insist that children are raised in her religion and not the husband's if it is different, and vice-versa.  The Catholic church even insists on it, with unenforceable contracts and such.  I doubt this is true of most Eastern religions.)


I think the square peg / round hole applies to language too.  Religious people make such a big deal about it, I don't really get it.  You really think that's more important than language and communication?

[Jhengsman]

For the record, on all the sites I've tried, searches for atheists in the Phils return 0 matches or a few who mention God in their profile and somehow picked the wrong choice for religion.


It seems like the Phils is a good match for most people in the US (since they speak English and have a similar religion).  There doesn't seem to be as good of a match for someone like me who doesn't share those beliefs, so whatever country I choose will be a compromise.  I guess I need to figure out what I want to compromise on, being unable to communicate with my wife, or not sharing her beliefs in the same deity.  The former just seems like more of a problem to me.


I wouldn't mind converting to a more Eastern type of religion, which seem to be more about being at peace with oneself, rather than a Western religion, which seem to be more about controlling people.  (If you deny that God-based religions are about controlling people, consider that a wife is likely to insist that children are raised in her religion and not the husband's if it is different, and vice-versa.  The Catholic church even insists on it, with unenforceable contracts and such.  I doubt this is true of most Eastern religions.)


I think the square peg / round hole applies to language too.  Religious people make such a big deal about it, I don't really get it.  You really think that's more important than language and communication?

The Catholic Church only requires the Catholic to pledge to remain Catholic and do her best to see that any children are baptized and raised Catholic. The "contract" is just official notification to the non Catholic of her church obligations. That being said, just because the average Filipino goes to mass weekly doesn't  mean they follow the letter of canon law any better then American Catholics in other areas besides the Sunday obligation

[michaelb]

OK, so Chinese women will expect you to work and you can't communicate with them anyway. Filipinas are too religious for you and besides, you don't like their culture. So what you're really looking for is an English speaking atheist willing to stay home all the time and who won't find you boring (as by your own admission all the local women do), and oh by the way, one who won't take any of your money when she divorces you.

You know, this "Gonna get me a foreign bride" thing isn't for everybody......

[FlyingMoose]

OK, so Chinese women will expect you to work and you can't communicate with them anyway. Filipinas are too religious for you and besides, you don't like their culture. So what you're really looking for is an English speaking atheist willing to stay home all the time and who won't find you boring (as by your own admission all the local women do), and oh by the way, one who won't take any of your money when she divorces you.

You know, this "Gonna get me a foreign bride" thing isn't for everybody......

The reason I posted this thread is to get feedback on all the potential problems I could think of, so what do you expect?

[Ray]

The biggest disadvantage of China is the lack of English speakers.
 

 
I know a lot of Taiwanese speak English. Also, plenty of English-speaking Chinese in Hong Kong.
 
 
Ray
 
 

[Capstone]

I never said China was more Westernized.  The biggest disadvantage of China is the lack of English speakers.  And possibly the "tiger-mom / tiger-wife" attitude.  I would rate China as less Westernized, and especially Americanized, than the Philippines.  Also, in my experience (going to Binghamton University, with a large portion of Chinese students), Chinese women are more shy, and since I'm somewhat shy also, I don't know that it would be a very good match. 

Moose,


Your preconceptions about China & Chinese women are pretty outdated and incorrect. Believe me, these days, there is no lack of English speakers in China - there are tens of millions of English speakers in China and you can find them with very little difficulty. English is taught in Chinese schools starting in kindergarten and continues through high school, so most younger Chinese have at least been exposed to English. My wife and many of her friends are fluent in English and so when we go out with them in China most of the conversations are conducted in English so that I can follow along. Even though I have very limited Mandarin skills, when I go out & about in China without my wife, I can always make my way without too much difficulty.


The whole tiger mom deal has been really blown out of proportion. I have no doubt that this used to be common but since the implementation of the one child policy, these days you will find that Chinese parents are pretty soft with their kids. Sure, they still really push them when it comes to school/studying but they otherwise cave into their child's demands all too easily in my opinion - I see a lot of spoiled kids in China.


I always have a big laugh whenever I hear someone mention the aged old stereotype about Chinese women being shy and/or submissive. I have absolutely no idea where this one ever came from but let me tell you, nothing could be further from the truth. My personal experience has been the exact opposite - I don't see how a shy and/or submissive person could ever really effectively function in China. It is a very competitive society where one needs to be aggressive and at times very demanding in order to get by - a shy/quite person would easily get lost in all the shuffle. If anything, I would warn someone who may be interested in Chinese women not to be offended if a Chinese girl asks them very personal questions and makes very personal comments about them during their first conversation/meeting.


I am not trying to persuade you to look to China instead of the Philippines or any place else, I just wanted to clear up some of your incorrect preconceptions about China. In fact, I would actually say that China probably would not be a good fit for you because you seem to have a significant phobia about anything strange, exotic or which may present an obstacle or challenge - all of which would apply to China.  Good luck with your search and my main piece of advice still stands - don't try and find a girl from a country/culture that you are not comfortable with.

[Jhengsman]

The whole tiger mom deal has been really blown out of proportion. I have no doubt that this used to be common but since the implementation of the one child policy, these days you will find that Chinese parents are pretty soft with their kids. Sure, they still really push them when it comes to school/studying but they otherwise cave into their child's demands all too easily in my opinion - I see a lot of spoiled kids in China.

I thought that whole Tiger Moth thing was about Chinese-Americans. Part of the 'model minority" stereotype.

[Jeff S]

You're right Cap, most of those stereotypes are a thing of the long past. I think where the submissive part comes might be from the old Japanese cultural norms of women not showing strong emotion, but rather being persuasive in their own calm way. Unlike women from some other parts of the world with a reputation for flying off the handle, traditional Japanese women get what they want with a smile on their face and a with a calm relaxed voice. It's the old drop of honey catching more flies than a gallon of vinegar. It has nothing to do with submissiveness or weakness though only behavioral standards. I notice that in China, people aren't nearly as reserved about displaying their emotions as in Japan.


I certainly have no trouble finding my way around China knowing only "ni hao" and "sheh sheh," and knowing the difference in kanji on men's and women's public rest rooms. That's about it.

[Capstone]

I thought that whole Tiger Moth thing was about Chinese-Americans. Part of the 'model minority" stereotype.

I think that most of the attention that has been given to the tiger mom thing recently has been mostly on ABCs(American Born Chinese). But supposedly they learned how to be a tiger from there Chinese born parents - although it is something that has definitely subsided through the years. Supposedly, my father in law was a real hard ass on my wife's oldest brother growing up, then mellowed out quite a bit after her other brother was born and then was flat out soft with raising my wife. Now with his grand-kids, the old man doesn't want their parents punishing them at all - he gives into their every whim just about. 

[Bob_S]

... in my experience (going to Binghamton University, with a large portion of Chinese students), Chinese women are more shy, and since I'm somewhat shy also, I don't know that it would be a very good match.  Women from the Philippines seem much more sociable.

If you yourself are shy, a more sociable gal might really be a bad fit.  She's going to want to go out.  And when you're attending Phil-Am social situations together, your social butterfly wife will be off talking to the other women in her native language, leaving you alone like a wallflower, feeling even more alone and resentful because she left you standing there to go do what women do.  Rather than being a cure for what ails you, it'll just make your situation even worse.

I think the biggest thing is that I'm scared of the language issue.  I don't have the time or energy to learn Chinese.  I got a home-study course and found it almost impossible.  I've never been good at foreign languages, and Chinese is considered one of the most difficult.  I don't think I'd even be that good at Spanish, even though I took it in school.

As others have mentioned, it's not a problem if you don't know her language.  There are tens of millions of women across the Far East who speak sufficient passable English that you won't have to worry about communication.  Most of your communication problems will come from just being different genders!  Though I hear you about learning Chinese.  Japanese and Korean would be a lot easier.

It seems like the Phils is a good match for most people in the US (since they speak English and have a similar religion).  There doesn't seem to be as good of a match for someone like me who doesn't share those beliefs, so whatever country I choose will be a compromise.  I guess I need to figure out what I want to compromise on, being unable to communicate with my wife, or not sharing her beliefs in the same deity.  The former just seems like more of a problem to me.

Also a bad match: a spouse where you regard their most deeply held faith as a mere collection of absurd fairy tales.  If you don't respect your partner and his/her opinions, they'll pick that up pretty quick, and it'll blow up in your face eventually.

I think the square peg / round hole applies to language too.  Religious people make such a big deal about it, I don't really get it.  You really think that's more important than language and communication?

Yes, yes I do.  And because you don't get it, it is just that much more important.