Puncuality

[V_Man]

The cultural difference to punctuality between Western culture and Latin culture should be no surprise to anyone on here.

I am a very relaxed sort of person but even I hate to be late for anything. I am a very busy person so of course sometimes I am late. When it happens my stress levels rise rapidly and I feel increasing sentitivity to what impact it may have on the other person.

Some Latinas I know also take punctuality seriously but they know they are unusual in this regard.

I am wondering how far other people have gone to just accepting and adapting to this particular difference in our culture. If you took are more direct approach by 'confronting' this issue, was is worth while?

For example, someone was 1.5 hours late for a date with me. I knew she was very keen on me and it was just the Colombian culture thing. She simply was not keeping track of time even though she was looking forward to seeing me.
After "Hola" etc I said to her that I will have to learn to adapt.
She asked "why?"
I said that in my culture time has a different meaning than in her culture.
That was all I said but it was enough.
She instantly got the message loud and clear.
She was then profusely apologetic and subsequently made much more effort to be punctual with me.

At the same time I am a relaxed sort of person so I scaled my expectations of her way back. I guess there were some mutual adjustments made.

I suppose it was a good thing to confront her about it but I don't have enough experience to say if this is the recommend way to go. What have others found?

[fathertime]

Hi V-man,


I'm one of the lucky ones, because my wife is not late.  If we have a commitment at a certain time, she is ready to go.   She was like that from the start.   


That example you gave was a good illustration of how to handle tardiness in the early stages, in my opinion.


Fathertime!

[whitey]

Seems like you handled it well, V-man, although 1.5 hours is a lot longer than I would wait.

Fortunately I don't have this problem with Nazly, and she is costena (barranquillera) like FT's wife.  She is always on time for everything, and if there is some kind of problem, she calls me.
She's always been that way too - her friends joke that she is not really from the coast.

I've noticed that MOST (but not all) of my Colombian friends in Canada have adapted well to being punctual.  Most are professionals and were successful in Colombia, so they understand how to be professional here. 

I have noticed, though, that they can be more "relaxed" about time when it is a social situation like a party or dinner.  But, if we are meeting for coffee or something and they know I will be waiting, my friends are usually on time, and it's not unusual for them to be a little early.

[Jeff S]

I once hired an events company who specialized in company picnics for a manufacturing company picnic. There were only a few gringos and over 100 Latinos working there. The picnic started at 10:00 AM, food was to be served at noon, organized games starting at 1:30 in the afternoon, the company was to clean up at 3:00 and be out of there at 3:30.


When the food was served at noon, only the gringos were there to eat it hot. The Latinos started arriving about 2 when the kids games were about half over and when I left at 4 PM, the bulk of the Latinos started arriving and wondering why there was no food for them. What only 6 hours late and no food?


I learned my lesson and never did that again. From them on, it was bring your own picnic and make sure it is in a venue where you don't rent a space for a certain time frame - just show up first come first serve.


IN a related story, the last time I as in Kanazawa Japan, on the Japan sea coast, the train comes across the entire country, through the Japanese alps from Kyoto, on the Pacific coast. In winter they're covered in snow and it's a several hour trip winding through the mountains. As we approached the first stop on the other coastal plain, the conductor got on the intercom and profusely apologized that the train was arriving ONE MINUTE LATE! after traveling three hours through the mountains in a snowstorm.


I know that none of you guys have any problems with your wives, but there are indeed enormous cultural differences. OK, maybe you can train your friends that it is unacceptable in your world, but if you plan on training the entire society, forget about it. If being late is something that sticks in your craw, as it does in mine, you better get used to it if you're dealing with any Latino culture. This cavalier attitude about time extends to other areas of consideration of others as well - not just other people's time.  If you don't plan on adapting to it, you're on the wrong continent.


Just my two cents worth.

[CalifSur]

Hey V_Man:  I take it this date you had was in Australia? 
 
I would be interested to hear about the Colombiana scene in Australia because I was under the impression there are very few Colombians (or Latinas in general) there.
 
My experience with Latinas and punctuality has been mostly pretty good.  To summarize:
 
1. Just returned from my first trip to Colombia. The woman I spent the most time with while I was there was VERY PUNCTUAL for ALL of our dates. That impressed me but there some other things about her that weren't not so good but that is another story.
 
2. My experience dating Latinas in the U.S. has been that they are very punctual. Perhaps they quickly adopt to the standards of time here. Never dated a Colombian lady in the U.S. but I have dated many others (Peru, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.).  All very punctual.
 
3. Dated a 25 yr old Mexican lady in Mexico about 5 yrs ago.  She was NOT terribly punctual at first. I recall her showing up VERY LATE to our first date. However, over time she got better (or at least that is how i remember it). 
 
I recall on the "first date" I waited for 30 or 45 minutes for her at my hotel. So I left thinking, "I am on vacation in Mexico. If she isn't going to show I will go out and meet another girl."  I was in a seaside town with LOTS of ladies. 
 
As I left my hotel I began walking down the main promenade along the beach and there she was rushing to get to my hotel. So we went out and had a great date which led to many more.

[InnocentVixen]

I mentioned "horario mexicano" in a previous post in another thread, Jeff's post does not surprise me at all, yet you know what surprised me a few years ago? I was doing a training course in Mexico city and the man in charge had a talk with us about punctuality, he was brittish so you can imagine how important that was to him, he told us about Aeromexico being rated the most punctual airline in the world for a few years and how if the structure of a company is solid and sets good rules, as well as examples for their employees it will go a long way.


I think this applies in families and to some degree even in relationships whether is love or friendship, both my parents are punctual but most of the rest of my family it is not, the closest I would say is the cousin that grew up with me, he is also an only child, his mother is a single mother that has worked all her life so she had to adapt to having a schedule, so if you think about it this cousin had his mother + my parents as an example and is now his nature, my closest friends are always punctual when it comes to me even if they are not with other people because they know that if I won't be able to make it or be there late I will let them know with time in advance, otherwise I will be there 5mins early or if I say I will be ready in 10mins, I mean it.


In fact now that I think about it that might be one of the reasons I am so close with those friends, hard not to appreciate someone who is considerate of things like that.


Like Nazly I am also often teased about not being from around here, too punctual and proper they say!

[dennislevy]

The above points are well taken.

what one should do is not take an announcement of future arrival at face value. I ll wait 15 minutes for a woman....after the scheduled time of the cita...and if she hasnt called me, I ll call her.

And if she says Ill be there in 5 minutes that really means 20 minutes,

I ll be therein 10 minutes mas o menos  is 20 to 30 minutes and un ratito is an hour or more

So, I say to them, if its 5 minutes.....OK; I ll wait 20 minutes for you from now and if you re not here, I ll leave. Now, do want to change your time of arrival?

Same deal for 10 minutes, but I announce I ll wait 30 minutes before I leave.....

if they say un ratito,,,I say, im sorry, I m cancelling our date.....I will npy wait that long.

And then I send them an e mail, polite but very direct about courtesy and respect for another persons time´.And I ve gotten responses back....that I acted ugly, i had bad manners or I was too demanding,

NEXT!!!!!!

Several times I have left before a woman arrived....because they weren t there at the time they announced...and its a reason why I never want to go very far from where I am staying....for a first date.

And I never GOT a call from any of them...which meand that they never had an intention of keeping the date. I llc onfessthat those no shows happened with agency dates in Bogota two eyars ago..... since then with much better Spamish, I ve learned how to qualify women much better. 

[raycjs]

i am very lucky my girl is on time 90% of the time so this has never been an issue for me
 
 
 
Ray

[Researcher]

     Punctuality is over rated. I was almost killed on my wedding day because of punctuality. Well, I can't really say "almost killed" but it felt like it. I was at my hotel in Bogota waiting on my future brother in law and his wife to pick me up for the wedding.Of course he was late, about 15 minutes. My then fiance kept calling and asking if he had shown up and I could tell she wasn't happy. She was always on time but not her brother."I knew I shouldn't have asked him to pick you up" she said. Another 5 minutes went by and I got another call from my soon to be wife.She told me to wait outside on the sidewalk and her brother would be there. So I did.
         Sure enough he and his wife pulled up as soon as I walked out the door. His wife jumped out of the car, opened the back door and told me to get in. I hopped in and she got in right behind me barely having time to close the door as my brother in law stepped on the gas. She had a white flower in her hand that she said I needed to have pinned on the lapel of my jacket. So she pulled out this huge pin and started to pin it when my brother in law took a sharp turn. The next thing I knew I felt the sting of that pin in my chest. The momentum of the car had both of us pinned against the rear driver's side door.I noticed my brother in law wasn't letting anything stop him. He cut through parking lots, ran red lights and once, I swear, he drove on the sidewalk. All the time my sister in law kept trying to pin that darned flower on my jacket and stabbing me in the chest. I kept trying to take my jacket off but we were being thrown around in the back of the car so much it wasn't easy to do. I remember my brother in law saying that my wife was going to kill him. I could see the fear in his eyes.
         My wife is the oldest of 7 kids and the father ran off when she was a teenager. She helped her mother keep the other kids in line and often mentioned wearing brooms out on them in doing so.
        So there we were zooming through the streets of Bogota trying to get to the wedding. My sister in law and I being thrown around in the back seat while my brother in law was driving like a madman hoping to avoid the wrath of his sister for being late. My sister in law still trying to pin that darned flower on me and sticking me with that needle every time. I finally got my jacket off and handed it to her. I managed to hang on with one hand while putting a handkerchief on my bleeding chest with the other.
            We finally made it to the wedding. My sister in law handed me my jacket with the flower on it and we got out of the car. My other brothers in law were outside waiting.The oldest one asked me if I was nervous because of the wedding. "Not any more" I replied. Not after a ride like that.
            My wife has always been very punctual. I thought she was just doing it to impress when we first met. I kept waiting for her to change but she didn't. Being late is common in Colombia but not for my wife. She is pretty much always punctual and gets frustrated with people who aren't.

      Researcher 
 

[michaelb]

That's quite a story, Researcher. Most grooms wonder if they will survive the wedding . You were wondering if you would survive until the wedding. Ha, made me remember an old song:
I'm getting married in the morning
Dding dong the bells are going to chime
So pull out the stopper, let's have a whopper
Just get me to the the church on time!

[utopiacowboy]

In Oklahoma, we used to say that anyone chronically late was running on Indian time. Needless to say, punctuality is not a strong point of Oklahomans. We used to laugh at tourists who would arrive for a pow-wow at the scheduled time. As we all knew, the pow-wow starts when the pow-wow starts.

[michaelb]

49

[InnocentVixen]

Researcher your story is so funny! quite the nice memory you have there, even if your wife did not think it was funny at the time

[Alabamaboy!]

My experience has been mostly with Calenas and Costenas under the age of 30 and they were unbelievably tarde with most things. But if they were not so good looking they were typically on time or close to it. And I can say that as the girl's estrato goes lower, the later she seems to be. The girls I have dated from the upper estrata were more on time. But the lower estrata were late almost as a rule. As a matter of fact I changed the way I operated there in Colombia because of that and it was not such a big deal. Just remember that rule "when in Rome...."

At first I found the lack of punctuality to be a big pain in my azz. But after awhile I began to appreciate it and even admire it strangely enough that they would be so laid back and relaxed that they would not worry so much about the time. I wish I could be like that. And as a matter of fact I have been accused of being much more lax on the time schedule since I started hanging out with Colombians. I think that is a positive thing.

[Colgando]

Same thing with Africans, we call it Liberian Standard Time, everybody is always late, there is no expectation of people being on time. I am always on-time and just understand that most other Africans will be late, no biggy really for me, a bit annoying if I dwell on it, just sitting there waiting, but I just move on, nice when I am waiting at a place that has alcohol, I can just grab a drink a chillax until the engagement starts. Like AB said, I appreciate the laid back attitude, but at the same time, I think punctuality is one of the qualities that makes the US more productive and efficient as compared to other societies. I would prefer a woman who was punctual, but I could deal with a woman who was not punctual all the time, use some of DL's techniques to deal with it.

[Jeff S]

You guys talk as though being late is something that happens in isolation. No problem, just hang around and have another beer or two, she'll show up eventually - besides I have nothing much better to do.


I look at it as a symptom of a much bigger, cultural attitude: Mañana, No es mi culpa, No hay problema. It's all part of the same thing. It's a fatalistic attitude, an almost victim outlook that you take whatever comes along. Yes, I get it, life is hard and it's a lot tougher to make changes in life, so many just deal with whatever comes with indifference.


There were two statements in this thread that stood out to me - first, it is more pervasive in the poorer barrios than in the richer ones, and that it may me that's why places like Mexico stay third world, while places like the US are first. Of course that's true - not punctuality, but the overall attitude that you can control your world, not just be a victim of it.


Hey, nothing wrong with being laid back, drinking beer in the afternoon and soaking up the view of the world cruising past ... when you're retired. Lots of guys would just as soon retire when they're 25 years old. I get it. Some, on the other hand want more out of life. The question you have to ask yourself, is that what you want out of a wife.

[dennislevy]

There ARE women in Colombia who understand the value of punctuality.
 
Inmy experience, genaerally they have more stable and professional backgfrounds and they are older, If i date a woman who is in her mid forties of ffites, my expectation ios that THEY will be punctual..One reason i odnt waste time runnikgn after much younger Colombiaqn women is...in gneral) their lack of concern for time.
 
One of the most frsutrating experiences ib Colombia I had was with a beautiful woman from Bogota, who was a novia for aobut 3 months. 41, never married and no kids....and she was an Englsih teacher in a public high school in Bosa.
 
But she was spectacualry late for dates, usually an hour or more and I had to call, her philosoohy was that SHE didnt buy minutes, it was  a mans responsibility to contact her. She was spectacularlyt beautiful and an ardent lover, but I could only take it for 3 months.
 

[InnocentVixen]

There were two statements in this thread that stood out to me - first, it is more pervasive in the poorer barrios than in the richer ones, and that it may me that's why places like Mexico stay third world, while places like the US are first. Of course that's true - not punctuality, but the overall attitude that you can control your world, not just be a victim of it.

Very good point, but I think the victim part is not about 1st or 3rd world countries but more of the attitude in a person, I have talked to many poor guys, as well as wealthy ones and everything in between from all over, the poor ones are usually not reliable, somewhat lazy and say a bit too many white lies, who would want to offer a decent job to this kind of people? then again, the wealthy ones are about the same, with the difference that they complain while they work and actually take advantage of some opportunities, but at the end of the day neither of them feels satisfied with their life and make themselves a victim, which is something too far from what I am looking for.


I know some of you love the warmth and how families are so close and help each other with everything in latin culture, but I actually have a high respect for people who know where to draw the lines between what is mine, what is yours, what is ours and whatever we want to share. My family was the personal ATM machine for both sides of the family for years and it's not a position I would like to find myself again, in the long run it creates resentment when you are no longer able to help thinking "if they helped before they should be able to help again"  and that my friends, is in my opinion the downfall of economy in my country, the ones that have given too much end up being dragged down with the ones that were asking for help, and of course by then there is nobody to help them because "if they helped so many or so often, they can help themselves" or assuming they actually see the need for help, guess what? they depended so much on that person that they never thought of finding a solution themselves so they are back at needing help and can't return the favor, vicious cycle.


There are other ways of being warm and sharing of course, but sometimes is easy to blame the language or cultural barrier and ignore some red flags to the point we can see it as something positive, because that is what we are hoping to get.

[Micky]

Actually it is one of those things that I like.  Not so much in itself,  but in the context of its part of the larger picture of living the life.  We have had parties that start at 4pm,  eat at 6,  people will come from 11am till 9pm and NO ONE really cares.  The general attitude is so what,  maybe they have other things happening in their life and they get here when they can.  I really do not know,  or think about how that would apply to dating,  but it is not personal.  One more thing that they do not get uptight and stress over,  I'm cool with that.

Micky

[Jeff S]

I'm sure we all agree that there's a huge range of attitudes in every culture. Think of not caring about punctuality not as a single trait on it's own, but more of an indicator of an overall attitude. We all strike a balance between being generous and greedy, on-time or late, formal and relaxed. If this thread is about compatible mates, make sure your potential's overall balance is similar to your own. There's no such thing as her being perfect at everything except she's two hours late everywhere. Or he's only uptight about how much I spend on clothes, everything else is fine. My guess is that they're doing a good job at hiding their real attitude for now, but it'll be there, just under the surface, waiting to leap out and get you later.

[JimmySTLOUIS]

You guys talk as though being late is something that happens in isolation. No problem, just hang around and have another beer or two, she'll show up eventually - besides I have nothing much better to do.


I look at it as a symptom of a much bigger, cultural attitude: Mañana, No es mi culpa, No hay problema. It's all part of the same thing. It's a fatalistic attitude, an almost victim outlook that you take whatever comes along. Yes, I get it, life is hard and it's a lot tougher to make changes in life, so many just deal with whatever comes with indifference.


There were two statements in this thread that stood out to me - first, it is more pervasive in the poorer barrios than in the richer ones, and that it may me that's why places like Mexico stay third world, while places like the US are first. Of course that's true - not punctuality, but the overall attitude that you can control your world, not just be a victim of it.


Hey, nothing wrong with being laid back, drinking beer in the afternoon and soaking up the view of the world cruising past ... when you're retired. Lots of guys would just as soon retire when they're 25 years old. I get it. Some, on the other hand want more out of life. The question you have to ask yourself, is that what you want out of a wife.

spot on

[Colgando]

I would add corruption and undermining the rule of law among the major structural problems in the 3rd world. Sure, these issues exist in the US, but IMO, the US society does as good a job at not tolerating corruption and upholding the rule of law as one could hope from humans. The laid back attitude in the 3rd world is further down the list IMO of structural problems and may in fact be a symptom of pervasive corruption and disregard for the law from the top down, bottom up that has created a viscous cycle that is tough to break out of.

[dennislevy]

A Colombian woman once explained to me...that one of the reasons for deliberate unpunctuality is to control a man...to keep him waiting, and it is something that a young girl learns, when her first novio comes to collect her at her parents home for a date.
 
A Colombian female agency owner once told me that one of the biggest gripes that her female clients had with gringos...was that we werent patient with women...and if there was something that we didnt like...then we went on to the next one.
 
I understand both of these points of view.......but frankly, its my time and money, Im spending money to take the woman out. And I ll demosntrate pateince IF a woman tells me something believable and not the standard 10 bull[snip] excuses.
 
When I make the effort to show up for a date it is precisely because I want to start off on my best foot....and to show the woman that I value her and her time. If she doesn t want to at least give em the courtesy of calling me,  then she can do whatever she wants with any other man.
 
Some of said to me. well I didn t have minutes...
 
And the lack of personal responsibilty is so pervasive that there are multitudes of women who walk around with one cell phone or two...but always claim that dont have minutes.
 
You couldn t spend 200 pesos with someone in the street to call me?
 
And at that point I m pretty much done.
 
And Ive come to the conclusion that mnany colombianas don t feel as if they are responsible for the nuts and bolts of constructing a relationship. It may be that they dont see dating as something where both people demonstrate courtesy to each other,,,or they have been crapped on so much...they don t care.
 
And if they show me that for whatever reason....THEY don t care, I renew my membership in V mans IDGAFF (I dont give a flying f....) club.
 
NEXT!
 
 
 
 

[AndyLee]

yeah, what DL just said....ditto.
For a relationship to work she has to want it, too. If she wants it as much as I do then she will meet me part way, which means showing up on time or within reason, and calling me if she's going to be late.
You can't walk a hundred meters in this country without seeing phones for 150 or 200 pesos per minute. If it really is true that the three phones you have in your purse don't have any minutes then stop on the next street corner and buy one lousy minute to tell me when you will be here. Or, easier still, just dial my number from your phone, let it ring one time and hang up and I'll know to call you back on my minutes.
Whatever, just call me, don't leave me standing here in front of the restaurant getting hungry and grumpy and worried about you.

[V_Man]

I would add corruption and undermining the rule of law among the major structural problems in the 3rd world. 

I agree completely. In fact I'd say corruption and lack of education are THE major inhibitors.

Getting back on topic....

Denis wrote:

....but frankly, its my time and money, Im spending money to take the woman out. And I ll demosntrate pateince IF a woman tells me something believable and not the standard 10 bull[snip] excuses.

In the example I gave, she told me she was chatting with her girl friend and lost track of time. I knew at least she was being honest. 

And Ive come to the conclusion that mnany colombianas don t feel as if they are responsible for the nuts and bolts of constructing a relationship. It may be that they dont see dating as something where both people demonstrate courtesy to each other,,,or they have been crapped on so much...they don t care.

This suggests a lot more than being punctual. Please do explain this further Denis.

And if they show me that for whatever reason....THEY don t care, I renew my membership in V mans IDGAFF (I dont give a flying f....) club.
 
NEXT!

Can I just point out that in real life I am very respectful towards everyone that is respectful towards me. Also everyone starts off with the benefit of the doubt with me. The IDGAFF is only my general attitude to people who are disrespectful towards me.

Jeff wrote:

Of course that's true - not punctuality, but the overall attitude that you can control your world, not just be a victim of it.

This whole issue of changing your environment rather than being a victim of it was suggested to me by someone who was promoting the value of women from Bogota. The suggestion was that a woman with a career in Bogota is much more likely to have the qualities required to adjust to life in a foreign western country.
I have read some people say positive things in this regard about Medellin as well.

I have met women from Bogota, BAQ, Bucaramanga and Cali and elsewhere but the reason I have met them is because they are highly motivated people anyway so of course they are punctual.

I have also met a bunch of Colombian performers who could not even turn up on time for their own performance. 

Yes Andy I see your point. Perhaps it is less about respect and just simply about priorities.
Andy - if they are late once do you give them a 2nd chance or do you just move on?