Time for me to DUMP this lady?

[dennislevy]

Califsur
 
Everyone has given you their advice.
 
Thank you for the re cap....
 
I ll just add a couple of extra points
 
Many Colombians are disrespectful and rude to to others, they dont wait their turn they ignore personal space, and they treat others like garbage. etc.
 
A cab from the airport to South Baranquilla is 15,000 pesos one way, more or less. That s not pocket change for most colombianas. If she went to the airport with you, then respectfully its on you to get her home........... to get her to the doctor s office....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
BUT, BUT, BUT................ most important of all...you said you were with her the last couple of days 24/7, i take that to mean that the two of you were lovers. And if so, that complicates stuff enormously, because many Colombian girls feel that if they have gone to bed with you.....then she is committed to you and you are certainly committed to her and that includes fulfilling requests for maintenance.
 
As Ive said it is the culture, among some social classes of women, among certain age groups.
 
As far as the request for money to move to Bogota......that s an easy OUT for you.
 
Let me suggest that you terminate the relationship with the woman and consider it to be a valuable first lesson of what you dont want to do the next time you re in Colombia!

[Researcher]

   You are correct Califsur.They just don't line up in an orderly fashion and wait their turn. Also when you are waiting in one of these lines they don't believe in personal space and will stand so close they are touching you.It kind of bugged me at first but it is a cultural thing.I just always check and make sure no one is trying to pick my pocket.

        Researcher

[Traveler]

Look, as I have said, most women (but not all!) you will meet in Colombia will exhibit this behavior, some sooner, some later.  They really don't have much money, and think of us, guys from the West, as millionaires, and she probably sincerely thinks that $5 is not something you would worry about.  Also, from what I have noticed with colombianas, they are not good at understanding the concept of "principle", as in: $5 is not a big deal in terms of money, but the principle is.  In fact, if you start using logic or discussing the issue of "principles" with them, they get annoyed.  Women there, culturally, are more "in the moment", spontaneous, and this affects their actions and behavior.  To me that is very attractive, but obviously might be problematic as well, depending on context.  They don't carefully think over everything they say, do, or spend money on.  Again, everyone is different, but these are general patterns of behavior.  And obviously it is not easy to handle financial matters (and a relationship in general) until the woman at least makes an effort to appreciate the American culture, but it is reasonable to ask her to do that.  After all, the relationship should not be a one way street. 
 
Just have a strategy to do it firmly and consistently, because this issue will ALMOST ALWAYS come up.  Show and tell her that you are a generous guy, but you are not her ATM either.  If you can afford it, find out which charity helps poor kids in BAQ, and go with her to make a donation, or better meet those kids.  Be kind and generous with some kid who juggles things at a traffic light.  When she introduces you to her family, find out if she has a younger sister or a niece, and bring her a nice gift.  Don't do this just to impress your girl, but because it feels good, and plus helps you make a point.  People who are not generous are really looked down upon in that culture, and frankly those with means almost always do give money to charity and help out relatives in need.  But, at the same time, if she starts asking you for money or things too early on in the relationship, just tell her no, it's too early to be appropriate - in your culture - which it is.  Also, if you let the woman feel that has won you over (as in, you discussing living together, trips, kids, etc), it makes it much more likely for a woman to start asking you for money and things.

[Researcher]

  Traveler, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that this is part of the culture. It is. I think Califsur wants a woman that is not so much like this and one that he doesn't have to constantly remind that it is not OK to do this.Others here and myself have found women that aren't like this so it is possible to find.

         Researcher

[CalifSur]

Califsur
 
Everyone has given you their advice.
 
Thank you for the re cap....
 
I ll just add a couple of exta points
 
Many Colombians are disrespectful and rude to to others, they dont wait their turn they ignore personal space, and they treat others like garbage. etc.
 
A cab from the airport to South Baranquilla is 15,000 pesos one way, more or less. That s not pocket change for most colombianas. If she wen to the airport with you, then respectfully its on you to get her home........... to get her to the doctor s office....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
BUT, BUT, BUT................ most important of all...you said you were with her the last couple of days 24/7, i take that to mean that the two of you were lovers. Andif so, that complicates stuff enormously, because many Colombian girls feel that if they have gone to bed with you.....then she is committed to you and you are certainly committed to her and that includes fulfilling requests for maintenance.

As Ive said it is the culture, among some social classes of women, among certain age groups.
 
As far as the request for money to move to Bogota......that s an easy OUT for you.
 
Let me suggest that you terminate the relationship with the woman and consider it to be a valuable first lesson of what you dont want to do the next time you re in Colombia!

Since you asked Dennis. No we were not intimate. Hard as that is to believe. We spent two nights in a hotel together. I am a guy and trust me I WANTED to be intimate with her. HOWEVER, I had to repsect that she did NOT want to be intimate on the first trip.
 
Agreed, NO PROBLEMA with the cab ride home from airport. I did have SOME issue with request for help with the cab ride to the cita with doctor the next day.

[Traveler]

  Traveler, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that this is part of the culture. It is. I think Califsur wants a woman that is not so much like this and one that he doesn't have to constantly remind that it is not OK to do this.Others here and myself have found women that aren't like this so it is possible to find.

         Researcher

Of course it is possible to find women who are not hitting the guy for money.  It's just they are not the majority, at least in my experience.  My view was that 1) Califsur seemed to really like the girl and I thought he should consider giving her another chance and 2) this issue will come up in the future if he pursues dating women from Colombia, and he should be ready and consistent in his response.  He should be able to show that he is generous in general, but is not willing to be someone's ATM either.

[Researcher]

          That's a good way to look at Traveler.That does seem to be a balanced approach. I also like what FT said about having a slight "mean streak" and being willing to show it at appropriate times. Yeah, these ladies can seem disrespectful at times but it is almost like they expect you to keep them in line.

        Researcher

[CalifSur]

Yes, Traveler. I agree. I know what to expect now and in the future.
 
And I certainly have TONS of good input on this particular matter. It's up to me now to do what is best for me.  Thanks again!

[dennislevy]

Califsur


My apologies if there was a misunderstanding


i didn t ask whether  you had been intimate, I thought that your comment that you had been together 24/7 was a gentlemanly reference to an intimate relationship.


And without an intimate and or committed relationship, there is no rationale  for you to give her money.


Traveler s point s were quite good.  You don t  want to come across as tacaño, but you dont want to be taken advantage of.


what I do...and I am not saying this is the only way, but if


am with a woman for a number of days, I arrive with a gift....something thoughtul but never terribly expensive, a small wooden box, a box of chocolates. I pay for all expenses during the time we re together, meals, movies cabs, hotel rooms or a furnished apt for us if we are lovers, and she wants to throw a tube of beauty cream or a magazine in the basket, fine.


On occasion, I have been with a woman in her home and during the time we re together, i ll buy groceries


But I dont give her money and I dont take her on shopping trips.


At the end of the time together, if I like what has happened with us,and I have a good feeling i ll buy some jewelry, a bracelet and earings of pure silver or gold filled...but NOT gold.


I do think divesting youself of the girl is the best option for you.

[beginthebeguin]

robert angel said:

I have to agree with the guys here and also with a bit of reluctance, as we certainly don't know the 'whole' story. That said, the best ladies I have met and considered as great wife candidates never asked me for a cent, despite it being rather obvious at times that they were struggling financially, if I looked and considered their situation over time.

Amen, I had ladyfriend #2 in Cali mention to me today that her boss left her city to go to Medellin permanently to take care of her sick mother. So, my ladyfriend is out of a job, and has to start looking again. I told her I was sorry about that and that if I could I would help her out financially until she found something but just couldn't do it right now. This is a loose translation of what she said: "Do not worry about this. I will take care of my own obligations.".  She is now moving up on my leaderboard.

[fathertime]

 . We were at a pharmacy in Cartagena. She goes right up to the counter to buy something without recognizing an elderly woman was clearly there FIRST.  I had to step in and tell my gal to wait her turn.
 
I hear that is a Colombian thing (no orderly lines), but i am NOT sure. But that could have been my grandmother or mother. And the elderly lady (who I am nearly certain was Colombian) was clearly offended until I stepped in and told my gal to wait.

If this type of boorish behavior is typical then I've been very lucky, because I hadn't experienced Colombian woman that ignored old ladies.  My wife usually notices an older feeble person before me and ruins my chances of being a gentleman because she instructs me to help/let her pass/give up my seat, etc etc. before I can voluntarily do so, which is something I would normally do anyway.   


I'm sure your lady friend has a lot of good qualities too, and if a man had a lot of time and wanted a project she might be worth the time.  It is going to be pretty hard to reshape these behaviors from afar and I can see why a person would take a look at other ladies.  Some men would overlook these little things, but it appears that you are not one of those men so it makes sense for you to try for another lady that is by nature more courteous.


Fathertime!

[JimD]

Dennis I´m interested in the small wooden box gifts. They sound economical. Do you make ´ em yourself or just pick them up somewhere and have any of your dates ever smashed one over your head? Of course the idea isn´t completely original. Ted  Kaczynski purportedly fashioned a beatiful one for a Spanish speaking pen-pal he had in Ojinaga (just accross from Presidio, Texas).

Kidding aside I think your protocol for gift giving is pretty good.

[dennislevy]

Jim D
 
Ted Kazcynski had the same idea?  It s no wonder I ve ......bombed......with so many Colombian women!
 
These wooden boxes are available in any souvenir shop....In Bogota, Cali, Medellin, BQ at airports...sometiimes they have the name of the local city on them, sometimes they are shaped like a heart There are different sizes, small is about 9500 pesos, the next size up is about 14,000 pesos, sometimes they are filled with a small plastic bag of chocolate covered coffee beans.
 
It is a generic but thoughtful gift....
 
 

[CalifSur]

If this type of boorish behavior is typical then I've been very lucky, because I hadn't experienced Colombian woman that ignored old ladies.  My wife usually notices an older feeble person before me and ruins my chances of being a gentleman because she instructs me to help/let her pass/give up my seat, etc etc. before I can voluntarily do so, which is something I would normally do anyway.   

Fathertime!

Glad to hear your experience has been more positive. I knew your wife had outer beauty from her photo, now I know she's got an inner sweetness too.  That is a big deal to me. You are a lucky man. Definitely worth waiting for.

[Ray]

 
 
 

 

[fathertime]

 . You are a lucky man. Definitely worth waiting for.

Thanks Calisur!
Yes I’m lucky, as are quite a few other men on this site, but always remember it is not all rainbows, lollypops, and puppy dogs, being married to a young headstrong Latina babe.  It takes a certain semi-aggressive personality at times to keep the respect which leads to happiness.  It helps to have an attitude of:  ‘I’m not going to take shyte from anybody!’  At least that has been my experience.   


Fathertime!

[Colgando]

It takes a certain semi-aggressive personality at times to keep the respect which leads to happiness.  It helps to have an attitude of:  ‘I’m not going to take shyte from anybody!’  At least that has been my experience.   


Fathertime!

FT, what up! Can you give a couple of examples to illustrate your point above? I am curious what this means for your marriage.


Colgando

[pchip]

FT, what up! Can you give a couple of examples to illustrate your point above? I am curious what this means for your marriage.

I'll second that!!

[fathertime]

FT, what up! Can you give a couple of examples to illustrate your point above? I am curious what this means for your marriage.


Colgando

Well Colgado/pchip, for me it means that I aggressively hold my ground.  I don’t look for disagreements, but when there is one, I aggressively insure it comes to a head.  I’ve decided I’d rather have a blowout here and there with an outcome, then a constant slow leak under the surface that never gets rectified. 
 I have noticed that there is a definite art to the push/pull or finesse/bull rush, exacerbated by the added obstacle trying to communicate in a precise way through a disagreement in a second language, in real time.


  In my opinion, a husband has to have both the yin and yang to maximize his chances of a good marriage with many young latinas from Colombia.  I’ve found it important to develop the yin to that yang even when you are with one of the good young women. I realize that this analysis is entirely dependent on the lady, and I am assuming that there are a % of women similar to my lady. 


   I didn’t want to lead you guys on, but I don’t want to publicly give any specific examples at this time.  I just thought I would scratch the surface of the topic, because Califsur seems like a good man that is still in the process of figuring this whole thing out, which is a never ending task!  Take it all for what it is worth, which is that it is my 2cents on the subject.  If you read what I say to others on the board when they bring something specific up, you will see the attitude I’m talking about.  Or as everybodys buddy Colacorazon likes to constantly pound his tired drum to, BE DIRECT!  jajajajaja


Fathertime!

[dennislevy]

 When I got to Colombia, I thought that if I was a man of good will and if I could just talk with a woman and negotiate with her, we could make a relationshp work. I like to think I m still a aman of good will, but I wont tolerate a woman trying to control me...

Here a recent example
I posted aobut a trip report to Ayapel...a small town in Cordoba . There, I met a 50 year old widow very attractive, she lost her husband 4 years ago. She physically needed a man ...that part was fine..... three lovely nights together.
 
She asks me whats s next.
 
Now I don t  want to be a perro sin verguenza, so I say...I want to see you again and the next time we ll decide if we should  be novios. And I was sincere, I liked the woman..and I wanted to see more of her. She afreeed and saud taht ios what we should do.
 
So we schedule a meeting for Monteria, 2 hours away from Ayapel by bus and I leave Ayapel.  I went to Baranquilla and then down the cost a tad, so Im roughly 6 hours away form Monteria
 
The next date (In MONTERIA) was for three days, April 30, May 1 and May 2.
 
She had almost two weels to prepare.  Three evenings ago, on the 27th  I get a off line chat message
I cant meet  you
And I contact her
Im so sorry to hear that . Why?
I dont have the money.
OK, I think myself its 40,000 pesos to get back and forth, a bit more then $20.00, no big deal......
Cariño, don t  worry, I ll take care of the trip.
No I want to pay for myself.
OK, get  a loan from a friend or relative or take a quick loan at the local giros.
No, I don t  want to do that
 
OK, NOW I know its not about the money
 
I need more time. Please give me more time
 
Honey, what is the problem? Please tell me
I jsut need more time.
Cariño, how much more time do you need?.
No se.....I dnt know,
 
And almost always when a woman says no se......she s done....
 
And, generally when a Colobmain woman says she needs more time..... there are three outcomes
1. She wants to break up but she cant confront
2. She is afraid to continue for any number of reasons.....something may have to do with you, muc of its her own baggage, sometimes its jsut culture shock
3. She has got another man or men in play at the same time and she s juggling
 
So I outlined the possiiblities and I said I ll assume there isnt another man, but let me tell you how I feel
 
You committed to the 30th....If it was just a question of money, that s easily solved but I can see its not about the money. We decided to spend those three days together to decide if we wanted to formalize the realtionship as novios...You would be free to say no, so am  I.  That was the only purpose of the 3 days in Monteria.
 
tengo cariño (Im very fond of you) and I wanted to see you again.
 
Well I think we went too fast.
Honey, we wanted to make love, both of us, yes?
Of course. I loved everything......
 
OK; then let me make it very simple. If you dont want to meet me in Monteria...for whatever reasons you have......lets just call  it a lovely few days together in Ayapel and we re both free to go on with our lives.
Cariño, you re ending the relationship?
Yes I am
Pero te quiero! I love you!
No you may think you have feelings for me, but if you can t make up your mind in 12 days to travel 2 hours to spend 3 days with me, you re feeling somethiing else and I v tried to understand what that is....but you wont tell me....
 
Thank you for everything, it was lovely.
 
Amor, te quiero!
chao, cariño....
Amor.............................
 
And this happens umpteen times.....in Colombia. A Colombian guy might have said....honey take all the time you want, I ll wait for you until eternity and he fnds other women to bang and he and the original woman jangle each other s  chains for a while more.   
 
Did she have fear to continue with me?
Maybe.
Did she want to control the situatuon and change the rules after we had made a very simple agreement?
Yes.
Had she decided to break up with me?
Maybe yes, maybe no.
Was there another guy?
Don t know and I never care about that possibility.
 
And so I walked.
 
And until you are married to a Colombian woman, sometimes its much easier to walk. If you DO marry, make sure that you have a way to discuss and resolve problems openly.
 
This lady started with a silly excuse (the money) and it didnt get any better after that.
 
There is a push-pull a control dynamic in almost all relationships between men and women here . And as I ve live here, I understand the culture more and more...but as FT says, I won t let myself get jangled by a woman. and quite often its better just to get an outcome. 

And she hasnt contacted me..so I think she got what she wanted, 
 
 

[Colgando]

Well Colgado/pchip, for me it means that I aggressively hold my ground.  I don’t look for disagreements, but when there is one, I aggressively insure it comes to a head.  I’ve decided I’d rather have a blowout here and there with an outcome, then a constant slow leak under the surface that never gets rectified. 
 I have noticed that there is a definite art to the push/pull or finesse/bull rush, exacerbated by the added obstacle trying to communicate in a precise way through a disagreement in a second language, in real time.


  In my opinion, a husband has to have both the yin and yang to maximize his chances of a good marriage with many young latinas from Colombia.  I’ve found it important to develop the yin to that yang even when you are with one of the good young women. I realize that this analysis is entirely dependent on the lady, and I am assuming that there are a % of women similar to my lady. 


   I didn’t want to lead you guys on, but I don’t want to publicly give any specific examples at this time.  I just thought I would scratch the surface of the topic, because Califsur seems like a good man that is still in the process of figuring this whole thing out, which is a never ending task!  Take it all for what it is worth, which is that it is my 2cents on the subject.  If you read what I say to others on the board when they bring something specific up, you will see the attitude I’m talking about.  Or as everybodys buddy Colacorazon likes to constantly pound his tired drum to, BE DIRECT!  jajajajaja


Fathertime!

Thanks FT, I hear and see where you are coming from. I can understand not wanting to get too personal with your house and all. I'll have to PM you one day when these scenarios are in play with me and my latina babe, hopefully! 

[KenC]

Cali,
I am going to preface my comments with the fact that I never read your TR.  I did read your opening post here and the first few pages.  I will also admit I have no experience with Cali women but was married to a young self centered Russian for 11 years.  That being said............
 
I have a different opinion from what I have read here.  I see only one infraction here is when she asked for money for her Mom's B day gift.  You really did not explain it clear enough as to maybe she was asking for a loan to make her purchase?  Even if that was not the case, she stepped across the line with this, you corrected her behavior (good man) and she has complied to your wishes ever since.  My take is that this is a miner offense and has been corrected.  Have you ever made a misstep or a comment you would like to take back?  None of us are perfect.
 
The rest of the "RED FLAGS" are YOUR problems not hers IMO.  Giving a woman taxi fare should be expected and shame on you for not offering first.  Buying a trinket at the beach is trivial and kind of cute.  For you to see these things as semi gold digging is a joke.  Dude, it costs money to date women.  Quit analyzing every minor action as an attempt to bilk you out of your money.  Maybe you should look for an AW that has a good job?  You certainly do not appear to be ready to give the support (financially and emotionally) that is required to be married to a foreign woman.
 
I also read her comment on her move to Bogota as a sharing of her concerns with the man in her life.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Again, you show no concern for her potential difficulties but only think it is yet another attempt to get your money.  Honestly, I don't think YOU are ready for this.  I have to agree with the majority here.  You should move on, but for the sake of the woman.
KenC

[Ray]

Cali,
I am going to preface my comments with the fact that I never read your TR. I did read your opening post here and the first few pages. I will also admit I have no experience with Cali women but was married to a young self centered Russian for 11 years. That being said............

I have a different opinion from what I have read here. I see only one infraction here is when she asked for money for her Mom's B day gift. You really did not explain it clear enough as to maybe she was asking for a loan to make her purchase? Even if that was not the case, she stepped across the line with this, you corrected her behavior (good man) and she has complied to your wishes ever since. My take is that this is a miner offense and has been corrected. Have you ever made a misstep or a comment you would like to take back? None of us are perfect.

The rest of the "RED FLAGS" are YOUR problems not hers IMO. Giving a woman taxi fare should be expected and shame on you for not offering first. Buying a trinket at the beach is trivial and kind of cute. For you to see these things as semi gold digging is a joke. Dude, it costs money to date women. Quit analyzing every minor action as an attempt to bilk you out of your money. Maybe you should look for an AW that has a good job? You certainly do not appear to be ready to give the support (financially and emotionally) that is required to be married to a foreign woman.

I also read her comment on her move to Bogota as a sharing of her concerns with the man in her life. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, you show no concern for her potential difficulties but only think it is yet another attempt to get your money. Honestly, I don't think YOU are ready for this. I have to agree with the majority here. You should move on, but for the sake of the woman.
KenC

 
Interesting points Ken, but I have a very different take on this.
 
First, I don’t think he was complaining about losing a few dollars, but about her character in general.
 
All of these "minor" behaviors by themselves may not seem important to you, but I see the totality of her actions as a good reflection of her character. And what I see is a self-centered prima donna who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about what other people think or expect of her.
 
What pushed me over the top was the incident where she cut in front of an elderly woman in line at the store. Minor, insignificant BS you say? I think it speaks volumes about her character. It shows a selfish entitled attitude and a general disrespect for other people and her elders. With this chick is all about herself and what SHE wants, what SHE needs, what SHE thinks is convenient for HER. She’s trouble for anyone marrying her IMHO.
 
That’s why I say dump her ass and don’t look back…
 
Ray
　
 

　

[CalifSur]

KenC:  You are correct that this lady is NOT a gold digger.  She is into me, not my wallet. I don't think I ever referred to her as a gold digger in this thread. If I did I take it back b/c it's not true. 
 
She has geninue care and concern for me as a human being. I do regret not making that more clear in my initial post.  I also wish I had chosen a less harsh title for this thread.  Que sera , sera, I guess.
 
Money was never really the issue. Although I am not rich, I am college educated (including an advanced degree) and have a decent career that affords me an above average lifestyle in the U.S.  So I am fully prepared to financially support a foreign woman, IF and WHEN I MARRY HER.  That is not a hard and fast rule. So I am not saying once involved with a lady that I would NEVER give her money. But in general that is how I view it.
 
Again, the sums of money requested by this gal have been TINY. Yes, you are right: she asked to borrow money to buy her Mother a gift.  And that is certainly less offensive than outright asking for it. 
 
I always paid for her taxi fare home with pleasure..  I took issue with her when she asked for taxi fare to get to a doctor's apt on a day when I would not be with her.
 
As for the Bogota matter, you are NOT correct. It was a request for financial assistance to help her get settled. This was confirmed in a subsequent conversation I had with her. Again, it was a TINY sum of money. So this is NOT about reigning in a gold digger.  It is about her repeatedly bringing money (albeit in small sums) into the relationship after I requested she NOT do that.
 
I think we may have to agree to disagree about the braceletts on the beach. If she had merely asked me, "Hey, can I buy one of these.?"  I would have said sure no problem. However, she purchased them without having the common courtesy to ask. Again, we are talking about $5 or less (USD). 
 
Sorry it did not work out for you and the self-centered Russian.  I don't care for self-centered people either.  That is part of the reason I started this thread. I don't want to jump into somethign long-term IF I conclude a lady is more self-centered than I can tolerate.  If she is continually doing something which she knows bothers me (bringing money into the relationship) than that is kind of self-centered, in my opinion.
 
 

[CalifSur]

 
Interesting points Ken, but I have a very different take on this.
 
First, I don’t think he was complaining about losing a few dollars, but about her character in general.
 
All of these "minor" behaviors by themselves may not seem important to you, but I see the totality of her actions as a good reflection of her character. And what I see is a self-centered prima donna who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about what other people think or expect of her.
 
What pushed me over the top was the incident where she cut in front of an elderly woman in line at the store. Minor, insignificant BS you say? I think it speaks volumes about her character. It shows a selfish entitled attitude and a general disrespect for other people and her elders. With this chick is all about herself and what SHE wants, what SHE needs, what SHE thinks is convenient for HER. She’s trouble for anyone marrying her IMHO.
 
That’s why I say dump her ass and don’t look back…
 
Ray
　　

Ray: Thanks for your thoughts (and great visual by the way).
 
I agree with much of what you've stated.  However, I probably should have made clear it was not a BLANTANT cutting in front of someone. It was a long counter with plenty of room. Once she realized the elderly lady was there first she backed off.  That said, I DID TAKE THE TIME to notice there was an elderly lady a mere 10 feet away from us. The fact my gal did NOT do so did bother me. I prefer a partner with a little more outward focus on the world.