New, doing some research and...

[Bayas_Hombre]

trying to decide between going to the Ukraine or Colombia. Right now, Colombia is where I'm leaning -- and a lot of that has to do with the reports posted here (plus, I speak Spanish fairly well and just a little Russian).

Any suggestions from those of you who have been to both places?

[fathertime]

Yo Bayas_Hombre, 

You can always hit both places if finances and time allow.  That would satisfy your curiousity, but expect to spend nearly 5k door to door on one trip to Ukraine, if you use an agency.  Colombia is less. 

  Sounds like you have a leg up in Colombia because of your grasp of the language.  There are a lot of factors so which country is best depends on who you are, what you like, how much time you want to spend in a foreign land, etc.  The ladies in both countries are receptive to older men than what you are likely to be accepted by here in the USA, generally speaking of course.

Fathertime!

[utopiacowboy]

My brother is married to an ethnic Russian from the Ukraine. I am married to a Colombian from Medellin. I am so much better off than he is. His wife is a good woman but rather domineering and a dyed-in-the-wool Commie to boot. Her parents live with them but would prefer to be in the former USSR if there still was one.

[Bayas_Hombre]

Thanks for the quick response, guys. Also found some other info regarding the differences between those 2 countries on this site. I've looked at a lot of agency sites for both and will likely go the Colombia route, probably in BAQ, probably late Summer/early Fall.

Thanks for the advice, fathertime. I'm curious, though, what gives you the idea I'm an "older" man?

Great response, utopiacowboy. As soon as I read it, visions of the shotput-wielding, steroid-enhanced East German Women's Olympic Teams came to mind.

[Patrick]

Once you date a Latin woman, you'll never go back.

[fathertime]

Thanks for the advice, fathertime. I'm curious, though, what gives you the idea I'm an "older" man?

That was general thoughts, you have not stated your age...sorry if you took offense.

Fathertime!

[Jeff S]

Just curious about what you find appealing about Ukranian girls?

If you're a city kind of guy and like the symphony, dinners out with valet parking, nightclubs, cruises, and such, an Eastern European or Asian city girl might be just the ticket for you, but if you're a barbeque burgers, hikes in the woods, picnics, frisbee in the park kind of guy, I'd look for a Latina or Asian country girl. Just my 2 cents worth.

- Jeff

[jm21-2]

Hey Jeff...your response touched on something I've been pondering....it seems like (and maybe I'm totally wrong here) the girls who are available for online/long distance communication seem to be almost entirely from the city. Having grown up in the country and lived in the city, I'm all for the country girls, but finding one seems difficult. Any advice you can give from people you know? Or anyone else have some tips? This is one of the biggest problems I've had with the whole process....especially with Latinas it seems like...I don't want to be stuck going to nightclubs, opera houses, theatres, or shopping malls every weekend, and a big city is about the last place in the world I want to live.

I'm kind of curious about the choice between Ukraine and Colombia...the cultures seem like night and day to me...maybe I'm wrong there too? I honestly don't know much about Ukraine, but from what I've read it seems similar in many respects to Russia, which I know a decent amount about. Don't mean to be critical, but if I was having a debate like this, I would look into learning more about the two cultures before I decide.

[Bayas_Hombre]

That was general thoughts, you have not stated your age...sorry if you took offense.

Fathertime!

No offense taken at all, Fathertime. I'm 42. But most people guess early 30s.

Just curious about what you find appealing about Ukranian girls?

If you're a city kind of guy and like the symphony, dinners out with valet parking, nightclubs, cruises, and such, an Eastern European or Asian city girl might be just the ticket for you, but if you're a barbeque burgers, hikes in the woods, picnics, frisbee in the park kind of guy, I'd look for a Latina or Asian country girl. Just my 2 cents worth.

- Jeff

Actually, Jeff. I'm a bit of both (and thanks for the summation of both types of women -- very helpful). I enjoy the city activities but prefer living outside of the city and the lifestyle relaxed living has to offer. Many of the Ukrainian women have the dark eyes, hair, and olive-toned skin -- my kryptonite -- that the Latinas have.

A friend of mine married a Russian (Novrograd) nurse who was here in the US on a work visa several years ago. They have a great relationship and that originally sparked my curiousity. I've looked at AFA and a few of the other sites on and off for a few years without really seriously considering a foreign woman for a relationship. Then, last year, I won a trip from my company to Aruba... and had a great time with a couple of really cool, smart, and HOT Latinas (I was the only Spanish-speaking Gringo in our group and the women flocked to me). Well... a year and a failed relationship later, and I'm seriously weighing my options. And this website is the proverbial "Godsend."

[fathertime]

No offense taken at all, Fathertime. I'm 42. But most people guess early 30s.

Lucky man, I'm 39 but most people think I'm 55. With this damn poison oak I got I feel like I'm 109!

Where do you hail from?

Fathertime!

[utopiacowboy]

You can find a woman who likes the country. My wife was a big fan of a Colombian telenovela called "Pasion de Gavilanes" about some Mexican cowboys and she wanted nothing more than a vaquero of her own. She loves to spend time on her mother's finca where they have a lot of animals that they raise for diversion and fresh food. There are all kinds of women in Colombia - you just have to know what you're looking for.

[Jeff S]

I'm all for the country girls, but finding one seems difficult. Any advice you can give from people you know?

I don't know - I'm a city boy myself - and my wife is even more citified than I. She thinks we live out in the country here in Huntington Beach, since we have to take a car to go to cultural events. I like getting out in the wilderness for outdoor activities, but she has no interest.

dark eyes, hair, and olive-toned skin -- my kryptonite

I was under the impression most Ukrainian women were more light skin/hair/eyes. If you like brown women, the world is your oyster.

[Bayas_Hombre]

Where do you hail from?

Fathertime!

Born and raised in SC. Lived in many places in the lush, hot Souheast. Right now, I live just outside of Charleston, SC. What about you?

I was under the impression most Ukrainian women were more light skin/hair/eyes. If you like brown women, the world is your oyster.

I thought the same until I started searching -- especially since the Ukraine is on the same latitudinal line as Canada. But there are a lot of dark lovelies from the Crimea, Odessa, Eastern and Western Ukraine. Kiev, too, but more of the lighter types you described. Moldova, probably due to the strong Romanian influence, is filled with a bevy of brown beauties.

Latinas, though, I think are more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

[fathertime]

Born and raised in SC. Lived in many places in the lush, hot Souheast. Right now, I live just outside of Charleston, SC. What about you?

Thanks,  I am in Southern California now, I've lived in a few other states along the way but S. CA is my home!

Fathertime!

[Looking4Wife]

Just curious about what you find appealing about Ukranian girls?

If you're a city kind of guy and like the symphony, dinners out with valet parking, nightclubs, cruises, and such, an Eastern European or Asian city girl might be just the ticket for you,

Sounds like they Russian/Ukranian girls are living like Gatsby?  If that's the case why are there (alledgedly) so many Russian/Ukranian "scam" agencies and/or a large number of FSU women that are (alledgedly) scamming to get out of the place?

Most middle class americans aren't paying for valet parking, nor opera tickets...

[jm21-2]

L4W, I think that's things they would like to do/appreciate doing, rather than things they currently do. I've heard quite a few complaints from Russian women here about how poor the theatres are here (plays, operas, etc). It seems to be a MUCH more popular medium over there, and from the Russian plays I've read, I can sort of see why...there are even great plays during the most stifled years of the Soviet era. It takes one ballsy playwright to push the limits when there were so many artists executed or sent to prison camps.

I'm all for cruising, but on a racing trimaran or something like that, which I don't think is what you meant Jeff, haha.

That's an inspiring story UC, thanks! You definitely have to know what you're looking for, that's dead on. My parents bought a boat recently for their retirement...beautiful boat the guy had dumped about $40k into, then took his wife out sailing and she didn't like sailing and made him sell it...for about $55,000 less than he spent. I'm definitely taking a girl out on a charter boat before I marry her, haha.

[Jeff S]

Middle class Americans may not be willing to pay for opera tickets or flocking to museums, but middle class Eastern Europeans are. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with the culture. It cost me over $200 each for good seats at the symphony. It's practically free in Kiev.

[Colombian Services]

utopiacowboy & Patrick both hit the nail on the head.

I've done business in both countries.

If you made a marriage marriage agency of only Russian women that came to the U.S through marriage & ended up divorced, you would have the worlds largest agency.

They are cold and domineering, That's just how they were raised and it hasn't changed much.

[jm21-2]

They are cold and domineering, That's just how they were raised and it hasn't changed much.

If they are so domineering, why does the reverse ladder system exist in Russia? I would think a Russian guy would drop a domineering woman like a rock. Maybe the westerners are just pushovers, or willing to be dominated to have some young arm candy?

I studied Russian culture/history and later Russian drama under an older Russian lady, and she was one of the kindest people I've ever met. She even brought in about a dozen Russian deserts, all of which she painstakingly hand-made from scratch, as a parting gift in one of the classes I took with her. Obviously this is just one anecdotal example, but your generalization is far too sweeping.

Jeff - I get that many things are MUCH cheaper in Ukraine...but cruises? It seems like a cruise would be a very large expenditure for the typical Ukrainian. Also, how many middle class Ukrainians are marrying foreigners...the middle class is only a fraction of the population as a whole (maybe 15-20%?), and probably an even smaller portion of the girls looking for foreign men. And in that middle class maybe 1/3 own cars (so about 5% of the overall population)...so valet parking might not be on the top of their list.

Source (obviously not perfectly accurate, but better than nothing): http://www.icps.com.ua/doc/middle_class_report_e.pdf

Just a matter of different cultures/economies, and different things money is spent on. An upper middle class Colombiana might be used to having a full time maid in attendance, but at the same time think a Ford Focus is relatively expensive car. A lower-middle class Ukrainian woman might be used to going to see plays and listen to the symphony, but think a plane ticket to nearby Spain is expensive. A guy needs to make sure he knows a girl's expectations, and make sure she knows what to expect. I'm sure many girls from the FSU come over here only to be dismayed when they realize how different America (especially small town America) is, differences that were not communicated to them, or not effectively communicated. It seems like American culture would have a lot more negatives for a Ukrainian girl than it would for a Colombiana, which would make for a higher rate of divorce.

[Jeff S]

I wasn't talking about what the woman was used to in her home country. I was talking about the type of American man that would be a match for a Ukrainian woman. Like me for instance. I buy tickets to the symphony, pay for valet parking, go to world class restaurants, and on cruises. A country Latina is not a good choice for me. I work with dozens and dozens of them, and have never met one that comes close to appealing to me for anything other than a roll in the hay.

Where did you get the idea that only a small percentage of Eastern Europeans are middle class? By whose standards? Yes, by American standards they seem poor, but these women are nurses, bookkeepers, secretaries, engineers - middle class by Ukrainian standards, and yes they go to the ballet and symphony, they're used to public transportation, dressing up, wearing high heels, and visiting museum openings. If you drive a pickup truck, like barn dances, spend most of your time in blue jeans, and just as soon eat at the drive through of your local fast food place - most Ukrainian women will not appeal to you and you will not appeal to them - looks aside.

This arguing about whether Ukrainian women are used to valet parking is silly.

If you're a city kind of guy and like the symphony, dinners out with valet parking,

[utopiacowboy]

"Where did you get the idea that only a small percentage of Eastern Europeans are middle class? By whose standards? Yes, by American standards they seem poor, but these women are nurses, bookkeepers, secretaries, engineers - middle class by Ukrainian standards, and yes they go to the ballet and symphony, they're used to public transportation, dressing up, wearing high heels, and visiting museum openings. If you drive a pickup truck, like barn dances, spend most of your time in blue jeans, and just as soon eat at the drive through of your local fast food place - most Ukrainian women will not appeal to you and you will not appeal to them - looks aside."

You got that right. My brother lives in a small city in Newfoundland, Canada. They take a vacation once a year to NYC to meet her need for the big city and it's culture.

[jm21-2]

OK, I see what you're saying now Jeff, and you're probably right in many cases.

There's a hell of a lot of people between museum openings and barn dances though, as I'm sure you're aware. I've known people who've worked in world class restaurants, and they get a huge kick out of how superficial and lacking in taste most of the customers are. I'm sure the same is true for those who go to symphonies, plays, operas, etc...taste is not something that money can buy. Would a girl from the Ukraine be more satisfied with a guy who regularly went to big, well-advertised art exhibits but didn't have a clue about art, or with a guy who liked to browse small local galleries and had great, sophisticated tastes? I honestly have no clue on that one, but I'm going to guess they're at least competitive.

That link I posted previously was to a report on the ukrainian middle class. I think they start the middle class around $800 UAH / $159 USD/month, but in 2002 or 2003 dollars because it's an older report. I don't think that's an "American standard." There are many countries with small middle classes. Brazil's is about 1/3rd of the population and shrinking. Just because someone is a doctor or a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean they get paid as much as the guy who picks up their trash.

[Jeff S]

Well, I guess the conversation did get off on a tangent.

Originally the poster stated:

trying to decide between going to the Ukraine or Colombia.

And I responded with:

Just curious about what you find appealing about Ukranian girls?

So he responded with:

dark eyes, hair, and olive-toned skin -- my kryptonite

All physical features. I was trying to make the point that lifestyle and culture should be a more important factor in deciding where to go. Once you've made that decision, you can go looking for physical features. I don't know anything about Bayas_Hombre, whether he's a cowboy from West Texas or the concertmaster of the Boston Philharmonic, so I was hoping to get across the point that he needed to focus more on what kind of women he was looking for and that might help him decide where to look. You can find dark eyes, hair, and olive-toned skin girls all over the world. I remember a stunning waitress in Linköping Sweden once, who shocked me by telling me she was born right in that town of two Swedish parents .

A few years ago, we had a regular poster on the Asian Board named Minnesota Guy who had a nursery business in a rural area. He also had no indoor plumbing. I would not have recommended that he look for a wife in Tokyo, because what young Japanese girl would be willing to spend Minnesota winters running to the outhouse in the middle of the night? He found his love in the provinces of the Philippines. She was a very attractive girl and last I heard they were happily married (though she did convince him to plumb the house after one winter of peeing icicles.)

Conversely, another poster who worked and lived in mid-town Manhattan met and married a lovely girl from Singapore. She was used to the city life and comfortable in that environment. Fine. It worked out.

Can you find a sophisticated girl in the night clubs of Cali, or a girl willing to use an outhouse in Minnesota winters in Tokyo? I'm sure you can. I found an olive skinned beauty in a small town in Sweden. Your chances aren't so hot, though, than if you look in a place where the kind of girls you are looking for are known to inhabit. If you're a hard partying laid back kind of guy, you're more likely to find what you're looking for in Cali than in Kiev. If you're a sedate college professor, looking for intellectual conversations, the converse may be true.

Plenty of people probably think I'm a pretentious, superficial jerk, too, for subscribing to the symphony and being a member of a country club. I don't care. I can afford it and get a real kick out of hearing Joshua Bell play Bruch's Violin Concerto No. 1 in G minor from the second row, or discovering a new Tuscan Barbera without having to look at arrogant, pierced and tatooed jerks in torn jeans at the next table spewing profanity every other word (an actual incident at a very nice restaurant a couple years back for my daughter's birthday.) Let them think that. It makes absolutely zero difference in my life.

My suggestion to foreign bride seekers, though is that if they pay as much attention to the culture, personality, lifestyle of the women they seek as they do to the eye shape, skin color and bra cup size, they'll be far more successful.

[jm21-2]

That was an excellent post Jeff. Sorry I've been so contentious. I understood your premise, but misunderstood you on some of the finer details.

I also didn't mean to insinuate that you were superficial. Just that there are quite a few people who think that high price tags are all that matter, and I'm sure a lot of girls are looking more for actual sophistication rather than image and a big wallet.