AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOMBIA - AUC

[Kenfer8]

... in response to It is difficult ...., posted by Edge on Dec 5, 2001


I don't think 80% of the women in Colombia think that way...that's somewhat daring to say. I'd say that possibly 80% of the women who JOIN the agencies think that way, or at least they say so to justify their presence in the agency when the foreigner asks "why did you join the agency?".

All the negative characteristics that you listed and apply to some Colombian men, need women to make them happen. The men don't misbehave alone.

Kenfer

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: It is difficult ...., posted by Kenfer8 on Dec 5, 2001

Kenfer,
I asked that question when I was in Colombia.If the men are screwing around all the time who are they doing it with?The answer I got was very young girls.When a girl goes through her teenage rebelion years (at 14-16 or so)she can just go down to the local bar and meet older guys.No 21 age minimum like in the US.Early teen girls who would be jail bait in the US are a good candidate for these guys to hit on.I have seen some girls 21 one or so with a kid and now they are ready to get serious with a guy who will stick around.One of my friends dated a beautifull 21 year old with a baby,but it really bothered him that she had a tatoo.She had been a wild girl and I guess he was afraid she might still be.He went for someone else.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOM..., posted by Aaron on Dec 5, 2001

Aaron,
Edge is right,this is a major factor in Colombia,probably second only to economics in why a Colombiana wants a gringo.
Don't overlook it even if it seems like stereotyping.Some stereotypes are true.Good chance the woman you meet in an
agency has been burned by a Colombiano.She is a better bet than one looking for the $$.

Pete

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOM..., posted by Aaron on Dec 5, 2001

Aaron - It was not just my wife that I have heard this from.  It is from other women I know in Colombia and Venezuela.  It is a pretty common complaint about latin men in general, that they are machista  It is part of their culture.  I heard this all the time from the women I know in Caracas, so it not just Colombian women who complain.  Most of those women would love to have an opportunity for an alternative to Venezuelan men, but there are not agencies there.  They put up with the machista attitutude because they have to.

Take care...

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE C..., posted by Edge on Dec 5, 2001

I agree. I am currently going out with a Nicaraugran whose husband was a lawyer. She said he had too many girlfriends and was machista. She is here in the US not at an agency. JIM C

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS ..., posted by jim c on Dec 6, 2001

Jim C - people will believe what they want to believe about why Colombian women join an agency.  I go the source, like my wife and her girlfriends.  My wife is a very honest person and I have not known her to lie or stretch the truth about anything. The bottom line for her is she would never trust a Colombian man enough to marry one.  She cited example after example of her friends and relatives who are unhappy in their relationships with Colombian men.  Sure there are good Colombian men to marry, but not many, they are the exception.  Many of these women she knows are married and most are unhappy.  Divorce is a hard option and almost no option for most of them.  If the man is not unfaithful to her then they still have to deal with a very machista attitude, most of the time.  I (and her) were met with disbelief by some posters when she said that 80% of Colombian women feel this way.  I believe my wife after talking with her.  She does not say this lightly.  It does not bother her in the least that some men may not believe her, they are not walking in these women's shoes.

What she tells me about being in a relatinship with some latin men is echoed by the women I know in Venezuela.  They also have the same problems.  Many of the women I met would die to be able to have the opportunity to have a choice with a norteamericano besides a Venezuelan man because of the same reasons.

A friend here in Denver told me a Mexicano man who when his wife gave him a glass of water that was not the right temperature, he threw it across the room and told her she should know what temperature water he likes.  He said this is pretty common.

Anyway, I am not here to bad-mouth latin men.  I accept that they were raised this way.  I am just telling you what I hear.  Anyone who could read Spanish would know what my wife said about why many of the women like norteamericanos:
We have a different culture, we value a good woman, we want a good stable family.

They should also read what she said about what some of the women want, who are not so good.

You are going to find all types of women at the agencies with different motives.  I would try to find a woman who is looking for Love as the bottom line versus some sort of economic reason.  She is a smart one because that is what makes a relationship work and last through time.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOM..., posted by Aaron on Dec 5, 2001

Edge,

So I guess you should ask yourself this question if you're going to compare American men with Colombian men:

"Who cheat on their spouses more, Colombian men or American men? Do both Colombian men and American men cheat on their spouses?"

The answer is that both types of men cheat on their spouses. However, there is one difference, given that Colombia is such a male dominated society, a man may be unfaithful but his wife cannot do much about it. This exasterbates the whole issue about men having affairs. However, it doesn't men that all Colombian men are going to have affairs.

Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Another thing......, posted by Aaron on Dec 5, 2001

Aaron,
Yes some,maybe most Colombian men treat their wives and girlfriends OK.It is not their wives and girlfriends we find in the agencies.
Just like in the US,there are many fine woman,most of whom are married.

Pete

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOMBIA - AU..., posted by Aaron on Dec 4, 2001

The Colombians that I've discussed it with want ALL of them (AUC, ELN, FARC, narcos, and common criminals) to just go away and stop killing everybody and let the people get on with their lives. You're right too, the government is too weak and can not protect the honest people. I can't think of his name right now, but isn't the platform of one of the candidtes "OK, guerrillas, the party is OVER, now my soldiers are coming in to KICK (deleted)"?...maybe this guy will get elected and (with a little outside help??) things will change, but it's going to be really messy for a while when the change comes. I think Pastrana means well, but as Nevil Chamberlin proved 60 some years ago, if you try to appease the devil the result is NOT "Peace in our times".

[NW Jim]

... in response to Execelent post, Aaron, posted by Michael B on Dec 5, 2001

Michael,
Good post. Think the guy you're thinking about is Alvaro Uribe, an independent and former state governor known for his law-and-order policies.

While Pastrana has not been successful with his peace process; its failure may also have had the effect of hardening the attitude of the average Colombian and preparing them for the sacrifice for an all out war. I think sometimes you do have to "give peace a chance" if for no other reason to galvanize the public when it fails.

Of course in Colombia and increasingly in the US, those doing the sacrificing will be the lower classes.

Perhaps a good analogy is Clinton/Bush. Clinton's response to the Embassy bombings in Africa was rather tepid, but he did not have the public anger to proceed further. Now with 9/11 attack Bush has most of the public behind him and can bomb away.

[NW Jim]

... in response to Re: Execelent post, Michael., posted by NW Jim on Dec 5, 2001

The Associated Press
BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) An act of bravery has taken a tragic turn in Colombia, with the discovery of the body of a 25-year-old woman who exchanged herself for her kidnapped father.

The army said Wednesday that authorities have found the body of Melina Pereira, held since April by kidnappers identifying themselves as members of the FARC. She was shot three times in the back at close range, military officials said. Pereira exchanged herself for her father, 65-year-old Antonio Pereira, after he fell ill during his kidnapping.

After the exchange, the family was unable to come up with the ransom needed to secure the woman's release. The amount of ransom sought was not disclosed.

According to the army, when the family asked the rebels to lower their demand, the guerrillas responded by sending a note saying the woman had been killed, and giving the location of the body.

Pereira's body was recovered by authorities on Friday in northern Santander state, the army said.

[Aaron]

... in response to Execelent post, Aaron, posted by Michael B on Dec 5, 2001

Thanks Mike,

I'm pretty sure Serpa has the lead in tne elections, but I and allot of Colombians question his integrity because he was a key adviser under President Samper, who's political platform was financied by "contributions" from the narcos during the days of the Medellin and Cali cartels.

So far, Pastrana has proven to be clean, but there a still some rumors going around about how he got into office in the first place, and Colombians all question whether if his past kidnapping experience was staged by him to glean public support as a politician. However, he has been clean none the less. And another good thing is that he has obtained the attention from other nations about the Colombian context. That's good because I don't think Colombia can clean it's own house without international pressure. Up until the last 15 years or so, the rest of the world was totally unaware of the issues Colombia has been going through. Another thing is this, I think people need to understand how the guerrillas started in the first place. Actually, in the beginning (around 50 to 60 years ago), the guerrillas had noble and just cause to fight for opportunities and place pressure on a government that neglected the majority of it's citizens, the socio-economic lower class. Colombia has had major problems with inequity across groups of people, and these people wanted to fight for more opportunities. However, unfortunately the guerrilla groups became intertwined with the drug business during the last 20 years.

Another thing, have any of you guys noticed that in Colombia domestic servitude still exists? Domestic servitude exists throughout Latin America, but I have never seen it as bad as in Colombia. The servants are from the lower socio-economic classes, many of them have little to no education, broken family structure, and live in substandard conditions. However, they support themselves by serving others as either maids, farm hands, etc. etc. etc.. The bad thing is that in many cases, the lords of these servants use them for cheap labor and don't treat them with dignity.

Chao,
Aaron

[markxport]

... in response to AUTODEFENSAS UNIDAS DE COLOMBIA - AUC, posted by Villa in Cali on Dec 4, 2001

I totally agree about keeping informed.  Even though a guy and his new wife won't be living in Colombia, her family will!  What affects her family will affect her, what affects her will affect her husband....

Take care,

Mark