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Author Topic: Colombian Business Practices  (Read 10061 times)
Sol
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« on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
I'm curious what others have experienced in doing business with Colombians. As an American with very high ethics in doing business who, as much as possible, only does business with ethical people I am absolutely appalled at the experiences I've had and the stories I hear of Colombians trying to cheat foreigners and each other as well.

I think for many foreigners our first taste of this is with agencies in Colombia. We discover that the whole picture wasn't accurately painted for us when we first inquired about services and fees. In my case I went the letter writing route (with an American firm providing the addresses) and had a good experience there. But then when I had to deal with one Colombian business person to run a personal ad for me and later to provide us with a notary for our marriage I learned first hand what slow, arrogant, and unresponsive service could be like. I've heard numerous stories of Colombians lying to each other to extract more money from one another in business transactions.

What's this all about? Is it just that poverty leads to horrible business practices? Is it that simple? Can't people be poor and still have integrity? Am I being naive? It's a very disturbing dichotomy to me; Colombia is a wonderful country; the people are wonderful and yet I'm afraid to do business with any of them because I fear getting ripped off.

My fiance and I had once talked about living in Cartagena for a while. I'd teach English and could probably make 2.000.000 pesos per month which would be enough for us to live comfortably but not rich. But, I don't know if I could get used to the shady business practices in Colombia.

Thoughts? Comments?

Sol
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Cali vet
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

Sol I'm curiuos about your English teaching plan. Are you talking about giving private classes, working at an institute or working for a university. A friend of mine from Barranquilla who attends the public university Atlantico tells me full profesors there really rake it in (for the Colombian economy) earning 6-7 miliones a month. Working at an institute the income you quoted is more likely. However I understand getting a visa to live and work there is pretty difficult. I'd like to hear what you've found out.

On the subject of Colombian business practices, if it makes anyone feel better they are as easily dupped as anyone else.
In todays El Tiempo there's an artical about 100 top Colombian business men who were flimflamed by the Nigerians out of some big bucks with fake investments. Remember when they were doing that here in the states 15-20 years ago?
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Sol
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: Colombian Business Practices, posted by Cali vet on Nov 25, 2001

Cali vet,

When I was at Charlie's Place late September I met an American fellow who had moved to Cartagena. He found a job at a "Colegio" which, I believe, really means elementary and high school as a teacher of English and, if I recall correctly, a few other subjects as well. He makes less than 2.000.000 per month but believed that I could easily make that. He really likes the school where he teaches and isn't interested in moving on just to make more money, plus, he doesn't have a wife to support. I was not under the impression that he had any difficulty getting a visa to live and teach there. If you want to contact him I could ask him if he'd be willing to have an email dialog with you.

Sol
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Cali vet
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: teaching English in Colombia, posted by Sol on Nov 26, 2001

Thank you Sol, I was just curious. If I go down it will be on a retirement visa which imposes the restricion of not allowing one to work. Another American, Bob Frank, operator with his wife Maria Del Carmen of classycolombianladies has been living and working in Barranquilla for over 25 years. I guess if you have a skill or a profession you can practise it there as well as here but at the Colombian pay scale of course.

I wonder how many on this board are giving consideration to either working or retiring in Colombia.
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jim c
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: Re: teaching English in Colombia, posted by Cali vet on Nov 26, 2001

Hey vet at one time you said you had info on the pensenado visa, any experience? or recomendations. My problems here in the US should go away in the next three months and my lease in Ciudad Jardin expires in jan so I am looking for a bigger house in El Penon near Dukes. I think I would like to be living there by summer. Any advice would be appreciated. JIM C

PS My Email is Barristerh@aol.com
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Cali vet
Guest
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: Re: Re: teaching English in Colombia, posted by jim c on Nov 26, 2001

Jim C

The visa pensionado is great if you can get the darn thing. You can apply through your nearest Colombian Consulate. You have to be able to show a minimum pension income of $1500 (dollars) a month. The visa is permanent, don't have to renew it every year like some others and with it you can get a cedula extranjero needed for bank accounts and everthing else in Colombia. The two restrictions are: you can't work (but you could open a business) and you lose it if you remain out of the country for more than two years (who would want to?!)

You can find the application form on the internet, just find a consulate website. I can't remember the url but it's easy to find. I talked to a swizo at Luz Amparo's a couple of weeks ago and he's had his for 5 years. Apparently he stays in Colombia 6 months out of the year and thereby avoids paying Swiss taxes...something like that. When he got his the minimum pension was $3000 but the peso was worth more than double what it is now.
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Edge
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: Re: teaching English in Colombia, posted by Cali vet on Nov 26, 2001

Cali Vet - I have been thinking about retiring in Cali, it but it is a ways off for me..  The political situation is the big problem because I like the mountains and unfortunately, so do the rebels.  I know the wife would like to do this also down the road.  

So we will see...
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JeffA
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Re: Re: Re: teaching English in Colombia, posted by Edge on Nov 26, 2001

If you like mountains and security, try Caldas... a few kilometers southeast of  Manizales is still considered 'secure' by my wife's family. She and I have talked about living there... 8,000 feet, beautiful climate, and 2 or 3 big dogs...
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Edge
Guest
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to edge, look at Manizales or near there, posted by JeffA on Nov 26, 2001

When I am ready to retire, hopefully the political problems may be solved so it is safe to travel the whole country.  As you yourself have advised, it is a beautiful country, especially in the Andes Mountains.  I have been either foolhardy (or lucky) to do some traveling in the country and from what I have seen, I would like to see more.  

We went on a day trip to a National Park they have for coffee, which I really enjoyed.  It is in departamento quindio.  We also hazarded a trip up to lago calima my last visit.  Various day trips to other places in el valle made me want to see more.

My novia mentioned that manizales is a safe region, awhile back.

So vamos a ver.
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cdrab
Guest
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

It just amazes me how the colombians try to screw you and are so sincere about there honesty.
What I have found in my dealings with a lawyer, catering company, tuxedo company etc etc in my recent wedding was that it is a good idea to get contracts detailing exactly what they are providing for you and the costs.. Although even with a signed contract they will still try to screw you. Also very important if you can hold back some money until after the particular job is finished you stand a better chance of getting what you originaly requested. (not always though). Colombia will drive you crazy when you want to accomplish things there that are very easy to accomplish  here.
Clint
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TexasRob
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

I don't know about Colombia but Mexico has to hold some first place ranking for this type of attitude.  In a previous job we had extra cells in our spreadsheets called "incentive x".  We had a good idea how much under the table money would be required and factored it in for each transaction.
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El Diablo
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

For me it's about expectations.  When I lived in Cali last year, I had to learn the hard way about these things.  I operated much as I would here in California and what I discovered was that I was a pretty easy mark, at least in the beginning.  I was undoubtedly naive about many things and I think people were able to manipulate my more trusting nature.  Today things are different.  The naivety has given way to some healthy skepticism and my expectations have clearly changed.  If a person is not a good friend, I am suspicious of the person and I am more careful not to put myself in a position to get taken advantage of.  

I think it's possible to do business in Colombia but you have to run it more carefully.  The economy is so bad however that there are very few oppurtunities that I would ever consider.

El Diablo
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Colonialjd
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

Business relationships develop slowly in Latin America.  Latins want to get to know you personally before they do business with you.  In Mexico this might include a night knocking down a few tequilas in the cantina.  In Argentina it might mean a going out to a nice restaurant with your wives.  They want to see if they can trust you.  In Latin America you need to pick your friends carefully.  This is also why it is extra important to get into the "good old boy" network.  In these coutries educated elites account for a small percent of the population.  They like to do business with people they went to school with, know their families,...  

The big problem is with a lack of transparancy in the court system.  Let's say I buy a house from you in the USA and show up with my furniture to move in.  You come out and tell me to away, the house belongs to you.  I can then go to court, prove that I purchased the house, and the judge will give you the boot.  In Latin America it is not that way.  If the Judge is your cousin I am in big trouble.  If you paid the Judge a bribe I am in big trouble.  

Business hate uncertainty and thus is afraid to invest in Latin America because of these kinds of risks.  

I personally think it is a Catholic vs. Protestant issue.  As a Catholic I feel I can say this.  The US was founded by hardworking, thrifty WASP's with strong views on right and wrong.  Latin America was colonized by Spanish Catholics.  Catholic countries traditionally have not viewed morality in black and white, but in shades of grey.

Throw into that the licenciado culture of Latin America where Latin Males refuse to act in a deferential manner toward their customers and you can have a very challenging place to do business.
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Colonialjd
Guest
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

You touch on several different issues.  Most of the Colombians I met are honest and ethical.  Now let's play pretend!  Pretend Colombia was rich and stable.  Colombian females are drunk with the power given to them by greedy lawyers and politically activist family law courts.  The United States is dirt poor.  One half the country is controlled by Marxist Revolutionaries who also happen to kidnap innocent people and pedal drugs around the world. The U.S. has an oversupply of females in search of decent guys who will provide a stable home for them.

I get the bright idea to introduce lonely Colombian bachelors to 23 year old American Women who look like Brittany Spears.  Some of the Colombians are socially inept, some are obnoxious, none of them speak English.  All of them are much more affluent than I am.  They spend money like drunken sailors to impress the USA honey-bunnies.  

I'm sorry, but I would be tempted to squeeze an extra buck or two out of these guys.   It would be very easy for me to rationalize.
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jim c
Guest
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
... in response to Colombian Business Practices, posted by Sol on Nov 24, 2001

A long time ago I posted about the Colombian Papaya rule.

1 Never give anyone a papaya.
2 If you have a papaya you need to hold on to it.
3 If some one gives you a papaya you need to take it.

I have discussed this with numereous Colombians and they have indicated the rule is part of Colombian  culture. What it means is be pragmatic not moral. You need to take of yourself, others are not responsible for you, or in business let the buyer beware. No one turns in lost wallets to the police. The culture in Colombia is indian, the christianity is just a paint job, if you don't believe me look for the mirror facing the door. JIM C
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