Immensely Enjoyable Site!

[Adan]

My dear fellows:

I have immensely enjoyed reading the posts on this site, and would like to say that I found the spirit of camaraderie amongst the group in response to "the racist" moving. There may be hope for us one day.

You guys gave him a cerebral "beat down" he won't soon forget, and in was a real coalition effort. Moments like that make me proud to be a human being. Racism and narrow-mindedness won't be defeated until the world follows your example, gentleman. I salute you!

One last thing- I have encountered much ridicule from  American women over my intentions to find a wive abroad. They question, of all things, my self-esteem! Can anyone shed light on this for me? What is the beef?

Adan Mahdi
Member, Human Race

[HappyIdiot]

... in response to Immensely Enjoyable Site!, posted by Adan on Nov 15, 2001

It is difficult to know what remarks you have had with American women, but it might be that you are saying something about American women that is not coming across very well.  If you are presenting your decision as a condemnation of AW, then it should not be a surprise that it would turn into a conflict.

But also there will be people that will want to tear you down, so that you do not succeed where they have failed.

Some other things I've heard are,

"You'll meet someone."

"Don't be so picky."

I'm sure people can think of others, but they all seem to revolve around the theme that this person will not be doing anything to help you, but for some unknown reason you should live your life the way THEY want.

You do need to make sure you are prepared for a healthy long term relationship, but after that, there is no real reason to wait.

[Hoda]

... in response to Immensely Enjoyable Site!, posted by Adan on Nov 15, 2001


telling women who aren't concerned about your happiness. Those women that really care for you, will understand your search to find & be found by love. For those women that don't or won't understand, whether they're family or friends. Tell'em to step to the side, because you're not going to let their ridicule stop you from finding happiness.

Best of luck....Hoda

[Aaron]

... in response to Adan, Don't waste your time....., posted by Hoda on Nov 16, 2001

Hoda,

Ain't that the truth.

"Tell'em to step to the side, because you're not going to let their ridicule stop you from finding happiness."

Be Cool,
Aaron

[Wayne]

... in response to I could not have said that better myself..., posted by Aaron on Nov 16, 2001

The 1st time around, I didn't really care what anybody thought, but I'm thinking if I married a Colombian girl, I might just be a little more concerned about my impression this time.  Everybody accepted my Russian wife at the yacht club during my 4 year marriage...it gave them something to talk about.  When it went south, and one of my friends said something, I would just respond with, "4 years with a beautiful young Russian women is better then a lifetime with a nasty average AW"

It might be a little strange if I showed up with international bride #2....but then again who cares?  Most of my friends have unsatisfying marriages to American women, and respect a change in strategy.

You just have to design your own life to suit yourself I figure.

Just my ramblings,
Wayne

[pack]

... in response to Re: I could not have said that better my..., posted by Wayne on Nov 17, 2001

your so called ramblings are right on!

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: I could not have said that better my..., posted by Wayne on Nov 17, 2001

Wayne,

I guess this is why it is best to take as much time to get to know the person prior to marriage. Let her get to know you, and you get to know her as much as possible so you both will have a pretty good idea of what to expect from each other when you do marry. I'm sure you know this.

Personally, I wouldn't get engaged until after 1 year in a committed relationship with a girl. Then, I would wait 1 more year after that for the marriage.

It's nobody else's business on how you meet your girl or wife for that matter. However, I wouldn't broadcast to other people that you met her through the "MOB" pursuit. Many people have negative perceptions about it.

Also, don't feed into the agency hype of meeting "marriage-minded Latinas that will love you for life, and will become engaged to you on the spot."

In Latin America, courtship is considered a preliminary step before marriage, and it is given much more consideration than here in the US. Also, traditional and decent Latinas usually prefer to court for a long time (years)prior to marriage. All my Latin male friends from Latin America have been dating there girlfriends for atleast 3 to 5 years before engagement. The girls were willing to wait on them.  

The trick with the Latin American agencies is to be able to find a girl that wants to get to know you better over time so that she can love you better, rather than getting engaged and married "over night" just to get into the country or because of the thrill for the whole idea of dating an American man.

Aaron

[Tai]

... in response to Wayne, posted by Aaron on Nov 17, 2001

Aaron,

I didn't have a problem with the rest of your post, but I gotta tug your coat on this part...

"In Latin America, courtship is considered a preliminary step before marriage, and it is given much more consideration than here in the US. Also, traditional and decent Latinas usually prefer to court for a long time (years)prior to marriage."

I'm not sure what you mean by courtship, but people here typically date for at least a year or two prior to marriage as well. The "Rush to the Altar" appears to be something that is more a characteristic to International dating, than U.S. dating per se. -If the same gringos were meeting their dream girls around the corner from where they lived, I doubt most would be talking about getting married after knowing her for a only a few days.

I have many friends from South & Central America, Panama, Mexico, D.R., etc. Of the couples that waited for 3-4 years the main reason was "financial"...they couldn't afford to get married sooner due to various situations.

Now, for ANY gringo to stretch out the International courtship for 3-4 years?? Her down there and him up here, visits every three or four months for a few days??? -Not realistic. International dating requires that you apply different perspectives.

Finally, "the traditional and decent latinas prefer to court a long time (years)"? That is a "sweeping statement" and most definitely a subjective one, but let's go with it for a moment...

So then, if a latina doesn't prefer to date for "years", what does that say about her? -That she doesn't qualify as traditional nor "decent"?

just .02

Tai

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we chat?, posted by Tai on Nov 17, 2001

Tai,

Good points. However, you didn't understand what I was saying, or I may have not made myself entirely clear.

What I mean by courtship given much more consideration in Latin America than here in the states is that frequently it is done under the presumption that marriage will result, not dating just to be dating, or having sexual relations just for the fun of it.  

For example, after a long courtship, it's common for the boyfriend to refer to his girlfriend's parents as "Padres."
And they even share things between the two families. Yes, typically dating occurs for about two to three years prior to marriage in the US, but this usually occurs after a person has had many "boyfriends or girlfriends." People here usually have a few relationships prior to settling down, and they tend to settle down allot later. However, in Latin America, young people pick partners early, date them for longer periods of time (for which ever reason), and most likely settle with them.

I never said that a "Gringo" should wait 3 to 4 years for dating, then marry his girlfriend who is "all the way in Latin America." This will be difficult to do, especially if the couple are younger, and are eager to be married to someone.

However, 3 to 4 years of dating prior to marriage is not a long time, even if it is an international relationship. With mature people, steady communication, frequent visits, and dedication, along with both people having other things in their lives that makes their lives fullfilling and not always preoccupied with being with their partners, 5 years will go by quickly.

Let me give you three examples, one is about a girl from B/manga who studied as an engineer in Colombia, and came to the states for a master's degree. She had one short lived relationship prior to meeting her boyfriend now. She has been dating her boyfriend for the last 6 years. She's 28 now. While she was here in the US for 3 years, her boyfriend was back in Colombia finishing a MBA and working.
They were together the whole time, didn't break up. And they went for months at a time without seeing eachother. Also, she wasn't looking at other guys while she was here. She was completely faithful. And when she finished her degree, she returned back to Colombia to live and marry her boyfriend. They weren't making plans to relocate here in the states.

Another example is about one of my closes friends, he's from Costa Rica, but he was born here in the states. His father was a congressman for Costa Rica. My friend had started dating his girlfriend when he was 25. Now he's 29. She's 27. They are both well off. But, they are not in any hurry to get married. She loves him, and she says she wants to marry him, but he isn't ready yet. He came to the US to complete a master's in economics, and his girl went to Spain to complete a MBA. They spent 3 years apart as well.
After they finished, they both returned to Costa Rica, and they are still together.

My third example is about a 40 year old attractive, respectable, professional, and educated Colombian lady. She and I are really close friends, and she gives me really good advice, plus she helps me meet girls. This woman confided in me.... She told me that she met her husband when she was 28. He was 45 at the time. They dated for 5 years prior to getting married. While they were dating, she came to the US to work on a master's degree in psychology. Not only that.... After they were married for 5 years, she came back to the US to finish a Ph.D.. She told me that it is difficult for the both of them to be apart, but she said they are both mature adults and dedicated to each other. She is in Colombia now with her husband and they are still together. Neither of them want to live in the US.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that if the love is strong, and if two people are mature and dedicated, then they can love each other forever no matter what happens. Another thing, LOVE is not about CONTROL or to GUARUNTEE that you will HAVE a person forever. LOVE is about wanting to care about someone unconditionally, accepting them as they are where ever they are, and for what they bring ot the relationship, along with giving them the freedom to live their lives. I'm sure there have been MOB marriages where the couples dated for years prior to getting married, and they are still happily married.

However, for those people that think the quick fix is going to lead to a happy and fulfilling marriage, their mistaken. I don't care if the person is fluent in whatever language, has such and such dollars, know's this and that, they're taking a big risk. What's mostly needed in these types of relationships is patience and maturity, and a true caring and interest in the person, not in their nationality or bank account. The agencies are filled with these kinds of people, both women and men. The trick is to avoid these jokers and find the right person.

Ask yourself this question: "If your daughter met and married a guy from another country who was from a totally different culture and spoke a different language, only after knowing him for 6 months, what would you think of her?" I would think she's crazy.  

I also have to say one thing, that I really like how Hoda and his girlfriend have been handling things. They've been taking it slow. They have both learned allot about each other. And one thing I like is how he has embraced her family as his own, calling her cousins his "Primos." This is a process Tai, not a contest, race, or swap meet.

I'm convinced that the MOB process is just as, or more, difficult as marrying someone from this country. However, I still believe it is worth it depending on the people involved.

Aaron  

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we chat?, posted by Aaron on Nov 17, 2001

Aaron,

It is a fact that a person's life experiences temper their perspectives....

Personally, I wouldn't ask a woman to marry me(or accept a proposal) after only knowing her a few days or a week or two....regardless of how "fine" and "charming" she is. I believe that you should wait at long as both people feel they need to wait in order to know each other and be sure of what they are committing to. -I don't have a set time limit, but it's also not something that is going to happen in a few weeks or months. 1 year, perhaps. 2 years, maybe. 3 years, I doubt it.  -But because life is dynamic and ever-changing I think it is foolish to make closed end statements like "never" so I don't....saying I'd "never do" something is like daring Karma to come kick me in the @ss.

-You didn't address the question I posed regarding the "traditional and decent latinas preferring long courtships" statement you made. Did I misunderstand something, because that sounded pretty judgmental and condemning?

I also have A LOT of good friends from Latin America, and many of their courtships were 3-4 years, but more for financial reasons...they waited until they could afford it(finished school, paid debts, saved enough money, etc). Other good friends of mine, ladies(latinas) I consider to be exceptional people and quite "decent", did not wait all that long...but have strong relationships/good marriages nevertheless.

Would someone WANT to knowingly enter into an International-Long Distance relationship/courtship that is expected to drag out for 3 or 4 or 5 years? I doubt it. Given their druthers, I believe most *people would prefer to date someone proximate, and the courtships would fall between 1 and 2 years. (* mentally ready and emotionally healthy)

Also, In the relationship scenarios you described, a common theme seems to be that the couples were from or at the same place(country) initially, began a relationship, then maintained it although a long distance variable was factored into it. -It has been my experience that most women, if they are "in love" with a man WILL wait for him...and this includes AW too.

In summary, I am just offering that not all those that date for long periods do so for noble reasons, and not all that have shorter courtships are less than "decent". Life is dynamic and ever-changing...and tosses a curve at us when we expect it least, but perhaps need it most...to help us to grow and learn.

I hope this hasn't come across as an attack, because that is not my intention in the least. It appears that you are a believer in longer courtships, and I can respect that.

just .02

Tai

ps - My great-grandparents on both sides were short courtships, and in both cases they didn't understand each others languages well.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we chat?, posted by Tai on Nov 18, 2001

Tai,

Take time to know her bra...It's not an over night thing. If she truely wants to be with you, she'll do the same THANG.  

Hey that rhymes, take care, =0)
Aaron

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we cha..., posted by Aaron on Nov 18, 2001

Aaron,

You're preaching to the choir here bruh.

I am not in a rush, and our "basic" positions are not far apart. I was merely offering that life is dynamic, so one's perspectives should reflect that.

If you go back to the first reply you will see that I said my only real issue was concerning your comment about "traditional and decent latinas".(which still you haven't addressed-???)

As I said previously, due to the fact that I have some good and "decent" friends that didn't wait years, I found that particular comment to be a bit extreme and off line.

I don't want to drag this on, so this will be my last comment on this thread.

Send me a private email if you'd like to talk more about this, otherwise I'll see ya on another thread.

Peace.

Tai

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we..., posted by Tai on Nov 18, 2001

Tai,

You're right. We can't put all people into the same mold. I sent you a private email.

Aaron

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we chat?, posted by Tai on Nov 18, 2001

Tai's comments about courtship in Latin America or at least Colombia are spot on. Long engagements there are based on  a mix of practical (financial) considerations and tradition. One example of the tradition: I have a very good friend in Barranquilla whose novio broke it off with her a couple of months ago. She is 22 and they had been novios for five years. Her mother has told her she must wait a year before she can have a new novio. I asked her if that was a little exagerated and she said no it was perfectly normal in her community. These courtships begin with the guy coming to visit the girl at her home where of course the mother maintains oversight. One thing is for sure, courtships there don't begin in a bar. Other girls in B/quilla have also told me that three to five years is typical. This observation is based solely on my personal conversations but it seems to me that the barranquilleros depite their aparent devil-may-care behavior are really quite conservative. We were also discussing differences between American and Colombian humor and she pointed out that most humor in her city deals with sex because that is the topic most awkward for them, this due to the church. Also based solely on personal conversations my impression is that the calenos are several notches less conservative with shorter noviazgos the rule.

Obviously it's impossible for an American living and working in the U.S. us to carry out the same courtship process as a local so compromises have to be made to the expectations of both. However we all know that in many/in thousands of cases it works and each of us has a reasonable expectation of becoming a shining example.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Pssst! Aaron, can we cha..., posted by Cali vet on Nov 18, 2001

Cali-Vet,

Tai didn't make those comments, I originally did. He tried to give a reasonable account for why this happens, and you are correct that it can be due to finacial, as well as cultural practices.

And the girl in Barranquilla that you spent time with on your last trip was perfectly reasonable and wise for listening to her mother's good advice.

She had a boyfriend for 5 years prior. Then she meets you, or someone else, and it isn't even a year after the break-up. She will need time to get over her past boyfriend so that she can begin to focus on loving someone else. Also, this girl is in the university, and would like to go to Spain to study, and make something out of herself. My hat is off to her. She's beginning her life, and she should be given the chance to make as much out of it as possible.

I'm sure you wont see her again. You better start looking for women in their 40's, not early 20's...that's more of my speed.

Aaron