"Saving face" - misunderstood

[cc]

From the discussions below, I think the whole notion about "saving face" is completely misunderstood. It is NOT about lying in order to avoid responsibility. When an Asian has done something he shouldn't and is caught, it will be the OTHER PARTY who will allow the perpetrator to "save face" by downplaying the incident. This is a MUTUAL understanding, BOTH parties know exactly what happened and has NOTHING to do with lying or cheating in order to avoid responsibility. I have lived in Japan a few years back and have seen this "social lubricant" in action. "Saving face" works in that social context! You can't just transplant it to our Western customs and call it lying and cheating!

[Tim]

... in response to "Saving face" - misunderstood, posted by cc on Apr 10, 2001

nt

[Zebson]

... in response to "Saving face" - misunderstood, posted by cc on Apr 10, 2001

CC, man I hate to keep running this topic into the ground.. But I really have to agree to disagree again here. Yes, it  may serve a purpose when used in relationship to having both parties that understand it's use and application given their own cultural setting. But I will defer here again to one of my earlier writings under (Just another macho american's perspective) Saving Face: “Avoid embarrassment or disgrace; retrieve or preserve one’s reputation at a time of a challenge to it. ‘Face’ here is figuratively the aspect that one presents to the world or one’s associates. ‘Saving face’ is said to be of great importance to Chinese, Japanese and other Oriental people. Now regardless…of all the implications, I don't know about anyone else but my biggest problem with Asian culture is this whole face saving tradition. Personally (and I may get flamed for cultural insensitivity) I think it stinks. I see know real virtue in it. Cloaking thoughts, feelings or actions for the sake of some benefit to the perception of others view toward yourself really seems more like a reverse guise against accepting responsibility for the truth or for the reality of a situation or one's actions. I was taught when I was young to take responsibility for my actions not how to develop selective ways of hiding my own weaknesses, wrongs and mistakes for the sake of trying to look good in the face of others…I'm sorry but my deeply ingrained western logic has a hard time embracing this concept. And I fail to it's grasp it's hidden virtues.

Zeb

[cc]

... in response to Re: "Saving face" - misunderst..., posted by Zebson on Apr 11, 2001

Let me ask you this - have you lived in Asia? Have you seen how "saving face" works? There is no point in defining this term from a Western perspective - it's sort of like trying to define Tao by using Christian concepts!

But I agree with you, we have "trampled" this topic to the ground. The only reason why I brought it up is, since so many of us are dating Asians, we should know what "saving face" means TO AN ASIAN!

[cc]

... in response to I agree - sort of..., posted by cc on Apr 11, 2001

"Saving face" is pretty much the opposite of what you make it out to be: it is the accuser who downplays (i.e. "lies") in order to let the accusee save his face! At least that's my impression after having lived in Japan for a while.

"Saving face" does not mean that the accusee lies in order to avoid responsibility!

[greg]

... in response to just to reiterate (cause I think it is i..., posted by cc on Apr 11, 2001

Lying is plain lying. No excuses in my book, makes no difference to me based on a person's culture. "Saving face" is plain and simple Lying. It's difficult to be in a relationship with a person that must Lie to avoid conflicts and to impresss someone. Allow me to make it clear..China is a Liar, no excuses. They cannot be trusted, those bleeding hearts China backers can pack up and move to China, don't forget Bill Clinton and all his baggage. One of the ten commandments in the bible was Thou shall not Lie..Lying is just as bad as killing someone. greg

[cc]

... in response to Re: just to reiterate (cause I think it ..., posted by greg on Apr 11, 2001

Did you even read what I wrote about "saving face" Since this is the Asian bulletin board and we are interested in having relationships with Asians, I think it is important to understand what this concept means to an Asian. If you are not interested in it, then why even bother about a cross-cultural relationship?

[greg]

... in response to , posted by cc on Apr 11, 2001

If you would take the time to read my Profile, then you would notice that I have a Filipino Son, soooo I got no choice but to stick with the Filipino culture. I believe those that support China and all it's lies should go live in China. We only need one true love, just becuz her culture believe in "Face Saving B.S" doesn't mean that she cannot give it up, if you want to stick with someone that thinks it's okey to lie...good luck cc..got nothing more to say to you on this topic, becuz we don't agree. I understand your position, you wasn't born an American. greg

[tito]

... in response to Re: ???cc, posted by greg on Apr 11, 2001

ms

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: just to reiterate (cause I think it ..., posted by greg on Apr 11, 2001

You're right, lying IS lying and is always wrong (except maybe when your wife asks "Does this dress make me look fat?")

I think what cc is trying to say is that saving face is not anything the offending party can do or demand, it is something the offended party offers to be polite. Kind of a "I know YOU screwed up and I won't make a big deal about it." It's not about lying to cover up anything or minimizing any responsibility. It's like the right of way on the highway. It's something to be yielded, not demanded.

[greg]

... in response to Re: Re: just to reiterate (cause I think..., posted by Jeff S on Apr 11, 2001

I understand clearly what cc trying to say..What's making my blood boil isn't the Asian people..It's that  lying country China..We only need to worry about one Asian woman, if the rest of the Asian culture want to continue to save face by lying thur their teeth soooo what, not my problem. I'm only concerned about my own Mahal being honest with me about everything, I make it clear to her to only tell me the honest(no face saving crap). greg

[Jeff S]

... in response to Thank You JeffS ) wisdom speaks hehe, posted by greg on Apr 11, 2001

To me this whole thing is like a kid testing limits. China is playing "How much can we get away with? well - let's just push a little and see." With slick Willie it worked great, unfortunately (for China at least) with GW, things are a bit different. We're the big kid on the block and while we like to show the world how nice, compassionate and fair we are, it doesn't mean we have to take getting pushed around. The whole world recognizes international waters and airspace. Everyone in the world is allowed to use international water, air, and space in any way they wish. It's not only not illegal, it's also not immoral (maybe fattening?) LOL
-- Jeff S.

[Ray]

... in response to just to reiterate (cause I think it is i..., posted by cc on Apr 11, 2001

Yeah, that's about right cc.

As an example, Clinton was not trying to “save face” when he lied to our faces. He's just simply a compulsive liar. It’s really sad that a lot of people actually fell for his bull sh**...

Ray

[Stephen]

... in response to Re: just to reiterate, posted by Ray on Apr 11, 2001

Yeah....that's it in a nutshell.

I've missed you in this discussion, Ray.  You can always get to the heart of the matter.

Hope you'll let us know how things are going.

Stephen

PS:  I hear Jessie Jackson may go to China to try and help settle this matter.    I understand that when he gets there he will stay with his Chinese mistress.....Wan Phat Ho.