Is there such thing as a reformed scammer?

[steverino]

Hi Guys,  I have been lurking for some time and have been in Ukraine for 3 weeks with JB and 1+ week on my own.  Obviously the intention of a R or UW to scam and actual scamming is nasty and sometimes may be perpetrated by men or even teenagers using photos of attractive women.  I will try to be brief to get to my question.  I had corresponded and talked on the phone since Aug with a woman from St. P. Probably 20 lovely letters or more and more than 10 telephone calls (she is fluent in Eng..  She orchestrates the conversation to arrange meeting in Helsinki which is more romantic....I sned her $500 for the luxury train $170 balance required entry money to get into Helsinki.  These details all pass the smell test.  I did not know her last name until I did send the Western Union $.

My buddy suggests I google her name and of course.  She is a known scammer so I do not think she will show up in Helsinki.  I already have a ticket and will go to Kiev from HEL.  I go anyway and find alternate quality entertainemnt.  I am dissapointed to learn of her being a scammer as she seemed so terrific and sincere and lovely. yad yada.

I had previously arranged to meet her at the train but did not even go thinking she got the $ and that was that.  Lo and behold I am out with this other woman and ending my date with her and I get a call on my gsm phone.  It is the hotel saying I have a visitor and where am I.  I talk with her and tell her my plane was late and I am on my way back to the hotel to meet her.

Long story short, for 2 days I do not let on that I have read scam info.  She looks better in person than her photos which are very good.  Her attitude and everything is really fun and we share some genuine moments together.  Very nice time in nicest hotel in Helsinki.  

Last morning with her she and I are sitting by my lap top and I have a serious talk with her.  I show her how google works when you put her name in it.  Smokin.  She says, Stevechka, why you not tell me about this before.....She has an excuse which is probably difficult to believe about 1 jilted man who told her he would ruin her life by posting scam reports.  Further, he has friends in many other coutries that he got to post scam reports...perhaps a bit preposterous eh?

But, I had a terrific time with this woman and I want to see her again.  The maximum burn is only what a man will allow.  I bought her a lovely coat for 250 Euro and some cosmetics.  BFD.  A small price to pay for what at least seemed like a genuine and lovely girl friend experience.

Sometimes convicted criminals become rehabilitated citizens.  Do any of you know of rehabilitated scammers who became either a good girl friend or a good wife?  This scam business is indeed nasty but it is so petty at the same time.  I mean, how long can a person persist with this type of BS?  Wouldn't it be better for a woman who is a scammer to find a guy she loves and move on...Although, one can imagine that if her charachter was bad that may not change.

I am corresponding with many other good candsidates as well as this one.  But this girl (she is 35 and I am 53) has been special in some ways even though I know that if her charachter is bad then we can have future problems.  For now though my next meeting is just for fun and should be pleasurable in any event.

Sorry to go on so long.  Hope you find the post of interest.

[wsbill]

... in response to Is there such thing as a reformed scamme..., posted by steverino on Dec 13, 2004

I think what you ought to do is hire one of Jack assistants to go out and knock on a few doors to see if some of these ladies are for real.

Most of Jack people can spot a scammer in a matter of seconds and it would be to your advantage to have a girl check out before you start sending money to somebody you do not know.

[Zoidberg]

... in response to Is there such thing as a reformed scamme..., posted by steverino on Dec 13, 2004

I don't read this site much anymore but every once in awhile I drop in to read and I saw this post. I had something happen to me in my search where my wife (of course she was not my wife then) was posted on a scam site. Those who have been here awhile know the story and it should all be in the archives.

After corresponding to my wife for many months I found her on a scam site. I really liked her at this point and we were talking on the phone a few times a week & sending email and SMS almost all the time we were awake at the same time. I thought I was really getting to know her. When I saw her on the scam site my heart sank but realized I didn't invest anymore or less then if I was dating someone at home up to this point. I was honest and asked her directly about it. I was not mean or anything but I just told her what I found and did she know who this guy was. To make a long story short it was the agency she was with that started to reply to her emails even after she told them she wanted off the site. I didn't know she asked to be removed till then but I told her she is still there. Immediately she went to the agency to ask to be removed. They said they did but still kept her on the site. Who knows how many men they replied to for her. They even admited saying until she is married they thought she was still interested. The scam site only took the guys information and didn't verify any of it. Basically the email sent out just says that if you want to continue to correspond with me you have to send money to the agency. For that my wife was a money grubbing scammer who asked for money. The entire time we wrote she never asked for a penny.

Anyway, at that point I contacted Jack for his help and with alot of hard work by all of us it was finally settled. She was removed from all sites and the scam site also removed her. Jack was a HUGE help and I still appreciate what you did for us Jack! THANK YOU!

Now it is a couple years later and 3 trips to see her, we are now married. We got married on August 17th of this year. We filed our AOS on Sep 3 and we just had our AOS interview on Monday. All went well and now we are just waiting for her 2 year green card.

In closing just because they are on a website doesn't mean they're a scammer. As others said any disgruntled man can post whatever they want without the woman ever knowing. Yeah, some are scammers that you have to watch for but many probably are not. I like that Jack will not even put the information up until they get two reports and they verify these.

Since you are the one that is with this lady you should be able to tell her character over time. After really thinking long and hard I honestly felt my wife could not have done these things and I am sure glad I didn't give up at that time. Now I am happily married and I couldn't have asked for a better woman.

Good luck to all of you!

Nobby

[Jack]

... in response to Is there such thing as a reformed scamme..., posted by steverino on Dec 13, 2004

Hello Steverino,

If you have real interest in this woman you need to find all the reports you can on her and contact each of the men who reported her if you can. If you can only find one report, or reports, from one man then I think I might disregard most of what he has written. If their are reports from two or three men then you should try to contact these men, talk with them yourself. If their are similar reports from four or more men, and you can contact these men and verify their reports, you have a real scammer.

Remember Steverino, good girls go to heaven, but bad girls go everywhere.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Is there such thing as a reformed sc..., posted by Jack on Dec 14, 2004

Jack,  as you know quite well there are some very strange guys who do get on the internet and "think" they are getting really tight with some RW babe.  Some,  basically have no experience with women in general and that leads to problems.  Some begin to fascinate (hallucinate) that this girl they have never even met....is like their girlfriend?#$%&??#

And these guys begin sending unsolicitated gifts and $.  Then when the girl is not interested in the guy---he says he was scammed.

One nice honest Ukraine girl I know is just amazed at stuff guys would send her after a few emails.  Crazy! Couple years ago she put up her profile on the internet (no agency)and within 6 months the emails never stopped.  They came in from all over the world.  It took her over a year to get some of her profiles removed.  And her profile had een hijacked.  There were agencies she had never even known about that had her profile with them.  And the agencies who hijacked her profile never contacted her or forwarded "her" emails...so who did the writing for those hijacked profiles.  Some "agencies" of course.  

Most of the problem is the clods who send out gifts and $ to someone they never met and sure don't know.

[tim360z]

... in response to Is there such thing as a reformed scamme..., posted by steverino on Dec 13, 2004

You really do have to consider the quality of the source with alot of these scam-report-scammers-sites.  Any guy with any amount of loose screws can claim some RW is a scammer...its easy.  These sob stories are not "investigated" by an independent 3rd party or anything like that.  Just send your sob story and they put it on the internet.

Anyway,  in your case she showed up for the date and there appears to be no scam there.  Reformed?  Maybe she never was one to begin with?

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Is there such thing as a reformed sc..., posted by tim360z on Dec 13, 2004

Hey Tim, you bring up many good and valid points.

Their are many men out their who holler scam after the lady they had wanted indicates she's not interested in him. Their are many men who holler scam after sending a woman money and she decides she doesn't want to see him, or doesn't want to have sex with him. And no one held a gun to these guys head and forced them to send the money mind you. Some of these scum bags who holler scam couldn't get a dog of an American woman let alone a fine Russian babe, and they are the first to holler scam?

Why many of these scam sites will post a woman after a single report amazes me. Sure their are many loser's who after sending $500 to a woman and she decides not to meet him hollers scam. Hey, maybe after a week or two of writing she realizes how big a loser he is. Are we saying this woman does not have the right to change her mind about this guy? Many men change their minds about Russian women. Now if the same woman receives $500 from one guy and another guy and another guy then we HAVE a potential scammer, but we can't say this about a woman who has a single report on her. Maybe it is a single disgruntled man, maybe the woman is not a scammer.

I was reading just last week of a guy who saw his girlfriends photo with a different name listed as a scammer. One report to this one so-called anti-scam site and this woman's photo is plastered around the world as a scammer. This scam site owner has sense removed her photo but I question why it was put up in the first place.

I would hate to label a good Russian woman as a scammer this is why I require a minimum of two confirmed and verifiable reports. The men, after making their claims, must be able to provide me with a way of contacting them and once I get two confirmed reports from two different men, I'll post the scammer. If the woman posted ever writes me and says she is falsely accussed, and it has happened, I will contact the two (or three) guys who reported her and have them address her concerns. All but two times when a woman called and said she was falsly accussed, after I included her and the men in an e-mail exchange and she read's the comments of the guys who had reported her and has a chance to reply, the scammers have disappeared. The two times I have removed a posted scammer was when I could not get hold of the second men who had reported a woman and with only one verifiable report I felt I had to remove them.

But you are right Tim in that guys should consider the quality of the source with alot of these "scam-report-scammers-sites".

[Frank O]

... in response to Re: Is there such thing as a reformed sc..., posted by tim360z on Dec 13, 2004

I know there are MANY scammers but I too wonder about it. HOw many times does a man who has NO chance at all with a ravashing beauty lie to himself & then shows up & gets heartbroken because he was too unrealistic. IN his anger he goes & reports her as a "scam" simply because HE was the one that was unrealistic. You can NOT make a lady love you. You also can't buy someone's love. I suspect that might be the case in a least a CERTAIN percentage of known "scammers".

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Re: Is there such thing as a reforme..., posted by Frank O on Dec 13, 2004

Perhaps you should go pick a lady from the PI (Asia) or from Mexico (where their really poor).  Heck, you can fly down there for next to nothing and I'll bet you can find a decent lady.

Why you guys go after the pretty ones that will dump you in 3 years is beyond me.   SERIOUSLY.

If your not a babe magnet, then you really are asking for some trouble,, of course - it's all dependent to the girl.

[Frank O]

... in response to Re:  If you are having troubles finding ..., posted by wsbill on Dec 16, 2004

than Ukraine. What is the average monthly salary in Ukraine? $70? I think Mexico is like $50 to $60 PER WEEK which amount to like $200+ per month. Also Mexican phone lines work FINE. You don't get disconnected every 5 minutes or so. Overall I think Mexico is MUCH more developed than Ukraine. I live 8 miles from Mexico & I go there alot & have dated MANY lovely Mexican ladies ;-)) so you can say I know what I'm talking about. I've also been to Ukraine 4 times & am married to a Ukrainian so I think I know both sides of the fence. I guess I married a Ukrainian who LOOKS & can pass for a Mexican till she opens her mouth & you hear her accent. Also in Mexico you can find the huge supermarkets like in the US which I've yet to find in Ukraine.

[Streetwise]

... in response to Is there such thing as a reformed scamme..., posted by steverino on Dec 13, 2004

Thanks for the post. I believe that there are a number of women out there who are in the "grey zone" in which they can be a scammer with one guy and a genuine partner for another, depending how they feel about him. Also it depends what we mean by genuine partner; if it is someone who will just stay with you indefinitely and create a home together, or someone who actually loves you for who you are.

Those scammers who are women, are still women after all, with a woman's needs and desires. It stands to reason that if they are not already married or with someone, that they may possibly feel a genuine interest in one of their potential victims.  

I know a couple of women who could have been described as the equivalent of scammers (maybe not so well organised, but definitely out to fleece guys for whatever they could get with no intention of getting involved.) Later, one way or another, those same girls became as single mothers; suddenly their goals changed completely, and to find a guy who could offer security for them and their children became a priority; ie someone they could stay with indefinitely and create a home together (see paragraph 1.)

This leads me to another topic which has interested me; does anyone agree with the principle that women with kids are a more secure bet? I know it does not automatically mean they will have feelings for a guy, but at least they are probably more stable and responsible, not looking to go on a global spending spree. Any thoughts or experiences on this?

[AnzoNevis]

... in response to Good luck, posted by Streetwise on Dec 13, 2004

I like to call them professional dates. Not hookers by any stretch, but girls
without a lot who will gladly take whatever is thrown at them. I remember a
stunning, stunning, charming lady, Olga, in St. Pete I met at a social. We had
lunch, she gave me a nice walking tour of the city. We had dinner (she ate 2
entres & dessert!), watched flaminco dancing; we had a great time and I let it
go at that. I'm sure with all the tours going through St. Pete she did this
often. A fair trade, I thought. And I moved on. Maybe something could have
come of it, maybe not. They know you're only there for a short time. But I
suppose if a guy pursued her for a couple of weeks or months and nothing
came of it, or she was doing this with several guys, she could be considered a
scammer by some. Any of us who has spent time in the FSU has seen western
guys with ladies way out their league, and then try to retain the lady's
attention by spoiling the heck out of them, and then get all pissy when reality
sets in, as it always does. As for Olga, almost 4 years later, I see her profile
on one of the sites.  Maybe she's a bit older and ready to get serious, who
knows? (now that she is about 26 and maybe feeling a little press of age).
Kinda makes me want to send her a note.....anyway, I do think that women
with kids are a better bet generally. My ex-wife of 7 years (Moscow) was, at
one time, a semi-professional escort. World class beauty. Again, these ladies
don't really fit a simple this-or-that profile. She had a 5 year old daughter
when we married. And while she never lost all of her "professionalism" (who'd
want that? :  )  ), having a child definately kept her more focused and settled
than I would have otherwise expected. But I don't seek out a woman with kids
with the expectation that she is necessarily more grounded ( I hope I am
more secure than that!), but I really liked the "triangulation" of having the
child around and not be just focused on wife and I. BTW, I'm currently
corresponding with a woman with 2 kids. Jeez...

Anzo

[Frank O]

... in response to Good luck, posted by Streetwise on Dec 13, 2004

NT