Ukrainian women will pay on dates

[Albert]

Recent threads on discussion sites have commented on the unwillingness of FSU women to pay for anything at date time.  Some have defended this as a cultural thing, others have attacked it as showing how the FSU people have no moral values.

I have had some interesting and changing experiences in this regard, having dated well over 150 women aged 35 to 50 in the FSU in the past 5 years.  I travel there frequently for business.

I have had a few dates where the women admitted (during the first date) they were there primarily to practice their English or get some business advice from me.  But, of course, it was still perfectly OK for them to expect me pay.

Another lady needed to go to a trade show as part of her consulting work.  When we arrived at the place, she looked to me to pay the admission fee.

At the top of this list of  morally bankrupt and greedy women was the gal who asked to sleep over at my apartment so she could be closer to a meeting she would attend the next day.  I agreed and the next thing I knew we were at a women's shop where she noted she needed a new change of underwear for this sleepover.  After selecting the items, she turned to me and told me the amount that I  would need to pay for the purchase.

But I had three quite different experiences on a trip earlier this year to Ukraine where I met with 11 ladies over the course of  5 weeks.  I invited all the ladies to a first date at restaurants.  Lady S shocked me by becoming the first FSU woman in my 5 years of experience to offer to pay for a part of the meal bill.  She didn't just suggest, she took out a 50 hgrievna note and held it out to me.  I declined to take her money.  She was  born and raised in Russia, but had lived in Ukraine the past 15 years or so.

I still was not over the first shock when Lady G told me that she was quite willing to pay for her share of the bill.  I declined her offer.  She later purchased takeout meals for a park meeting, opera tickets, and a metro pass for me, refusing repayment from me for all.  She was born and raised in Ukraine and considered herself Ukrainian.

Despite these two shocks, I was still not prepared for Lady L.   We met in the lobby of a major hotel and I planned to have a meal with her in the hotel restaurant.  She appeared and announced that a car was waiting for us outside.  The car took us to an upscale restaurant where our salads were waiting followed by a meal which she had already ordered.  When I tried to pay for meal and car, she said everything was already paid for and she was happy to do it.  She later bought ballet and musical tickets, and brought many grocery items to my apartment where she cooked delicious meals.  She was  born and raised in Ukraine but, in answer to a direct question, stated that she considered herself Russian.

These ladies were not of significantly different economic standing than the  previous ladies I had met.  So was my latest experience part of a new trend, or just outliers from the normal distribution?  I am not certain, but I suspect the latter.  I, quite naturally, have spent additional time the past few months with Lady G and Lady L.  Lady S and I spent more time together during the earlier trip, but never quite got our relationship off the ground.

[TimInUkraine]

... in response to Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by Albert on Nov 9, 2004

Albert,

I really think that having dated 150 women in the age group you prefer, you simply were statistically due......

I can't believe that there are other people on other discussion boards moaning about having to pay for dates (Albert, I am not talking about you). Actually, I guess I can. That is why foreigners, particularly Americans, have the reputation among FSU women as being cheapskates. When you see a profile of a women and she says she doesn't want a man who is greedy, she means stingy.

With very few exceptions, women in the FSU don't pay for dates. Period. Not with the local boys, so certainly not with foreigners. The biggest exception to this is when a woman is dating an "Alphonse." An Alphonse is some young good-looking guy who dates older, wealthier women and who is expected to do everything she says and wants in return for his keep. A gigilo.

I think the biggest mistake that Western men make when coming over here looking for a wife is that they underestimate the competition (that is, the local men). While agencies sell the myth that all FSU men are lazy, alcoholic woman-beaters (thus allowing themselves to skirt around the importance that economics plays in West/FSU marriages), in reality FSU men are far more gallant, romantic, generous, and attentive (at least in the courtship phase) than the typical Westerner who comes over here wanting a hottie that will be impressed by the simple things in life. FSU men buy flowers and gifts, take girls to restaurants and clubs, and never expect the girl to put her hand in her pocket. Of course, they expect sex in return--they are not pure like us ;-)

These guys will spend their last kopek on a girl, which is easy to do on an average wage (in Kherson) of under $75 a month. This is what girls are accustomed to, so imagine when the wealthy foreigner arrives (with his photos of his big house and his shiny car, and his boasts about how much money he makes) what girls think when he turns out to be less generous than the boy next door.....

Anybody who thinks a girl not offering to pay for a date is a sign of moral bankruptcy has serious issues and absolutely no experience with women. The worse thing is that these guys spoil it for the rest of you

[Albert]

... in response to Re: Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by TimInUkraine on Nov 11, 2004

Tim, read my original post carefully.  I never said that
"a girl not offering to pay for a date is a sign of moral bankruptcy"

My moral bankruptcy and greed adjectives were for the ladies with attitudes and agendas like those of the first three examples I gave.

[TimInUkraine]

... in response to Clarification for Tim, posted by Albert on Nov 13, 2004

I did read your post, and I specifically mentioned I was talking about others and not you. I just attributed your phrase "morally bankrupt" to the other people on other lists who think a girl not paying is a sign of no moral values.

What can I say? I like the phrase. It's so absolute.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by TimInUkraine on Nov 11, 2004


Good points all, and exactly my experience also. It's long been my opinion MOB guys are cheap. It's also been my experience FSU guys are nowhere near as bad as they're made out to be and far more adept at romancing women, at least until they marry. After all, they've been brought up in the same culture and know the rules.

The myth that FSU women want foreign guys because of love and attention needs to die. It's more about economics and a better life than anything else, so sayeth all the FSU women I've maintained friendships with after the romantic ball was no longer in play. They can get the attention they want at home, it's the things they can't that motivate many of them to look abroad. Not that there is anything wrong with that, everyone wants a better life. As long as it's acknowledged, accepted, and not abused it's no crime.

And it's no secret why many MOB guys act the way they do, it's because many *don't* have any experience with women from any culture. At least that's what I've seen in this business. It's ironic some send thousands of dollars to a women they've never met yet still be as tight as they are when meeting them in the flesh.

[Albert]

... in response to Re: Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by LP on Nov 11, 2004

You state:  "It's ironic some send thousands of dollars to a women they've never met yet still be as tight as they are when meeting them in the flesh."

These are two different subsets which do not intersect.

[LP]

... in response to LP, these are different cohorts, posted by Albert on Nov 13, 2004

...Yes, in general I suppose thats true. I was speaking of MOB men as a whole and should have divided those two subsets. It was a poorly constructed sentence, my bad.

However, I do know some who've been scammed and the byproduct was to be tight down the road when they shouldn't have been. And it's still my opinion MOB men in general are overly worried about expenses. If they can't afford to play they shouldn't be involved. The fact that many are is yet another sign of their desperation and how they allow their emotions to overule their intellect.

[Craigjjs]

... in response to Re: Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by LP on Nov 11, 2004

I agree.  I sometimes wonder how much experience we have with AW.  One of the biggest, if not the biggest, desirable quality that AW women want in a man is security ... financial security.  There are, of course, exceptions, but to most women we are still the breadwinners, hunter-gatherers, road kill collectors (whatever).  Write all the lovely e-mails, poems and sonnets you wish (OK a sonnet is a type of poem-I ran out of examples), but when the rubber hits the road, you better be able to provide the lifestyle that the woman expects.

If I put up a profile on Match.com saying nice, middle-aged, chubby guy looking for average looking, sweet, family oriented-woman, I will receive a modest (at best) response.  Add lawyer or succesful business owner or doctor to the same profile, watch what will happen.  Should we expect RW, who are in much more difficult environments, to act differently?  Don't knock them for acting normally or rationally, just if they unfairly take advantage of you.  I say "unfairly" because if you run around tossing money to the wind to impress women, you deserve what you get.

Craig

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Ukrainian women will pay on dates, posted by LP on Nov 11, 2004

Over the last few years I have met maybe 40 different Russians who have come here over the past 10 years.  Some as recent as 3 years ago.  This includes whole families,  couples and kids and I have yet to meet the mythical Russian alcoholic male.  All of the males are simply nice guys.  Most are very intelligent.  Some are very handsome and very well dressed.  This is probably the cream of the crop,  but one should not "buy" that myth of alcoholics and wife-beaters so often portrayed by agencies.  Statistically one could postulate the % of alcoholics here in America and the # could be quite high,  dependent upon the criteria.  Ditto on wife-beaters.

The lure for a "better life" is probably more in line with reality and I see nothing wrong with that.  As long as the MOB guy realizes that it is a big factor in the equation.  And certainly the MOB has an appeal for some rather "curious" men with little real experience with ANY women.  Some are just cheapskates. It is just like the beautiful woman knowing quite well that her beauty is also part of the equation.  

Now LP, you do make me chuckle.  It is such a great laugh really.  The very best evidence of how "curious" and inexperienced alot of these MOB guys are are....the thousands and thousands of $$$ sent to---a girl they have never met.  The scams and the plethora of scammers demonstrates that getting $$$ from these guys is easy work.  The very best evidence is all the "blacklist scammer" pages and the stories.  The guys are almost asking to be suckered.  Maybe they also answer those "Nigerian Oil" scam letters too.  I dunno.

The good thing is I'm sure most of the guys on this board know all that and are more savy than the average MOB guy.

[romachko]

... in response to The Fantasy Myth, posted by tim360z on Nov 12, 2004

Right after WW II large numbers of German and Japanese women married American GI's and came to the U.S. in spite of efforts made by U.S. Government to discourage them, especially against Japanese women. Next came women from the Phillipines. In fact the first MOB business, Cherry Blossom, was started by American-Phillipina couple. Now ladies from FSU. What is the common denominator? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to find it out.

Look at MOB web sites. How many German and Japanese women are looking for a foreign husband? You need a microscope to find them. You find few women from new EU member countries who want to marry foreign men. Several years ago there were plenty of them. As economic and living condition improves, the number ladies available for MOB from FSU will dwindle down.

There is also demand side story in the equation. Why Ukrainian women outnumber all others? Of course they are in worse economics than Russia and other FSU nations. But there are many countries in the world far worse than Ukraine. Well, Ukrainian women are much more educated to use the Internet and much more attractive than most others.

[Jeff S]

... in response to It is economics, stupid!, posted by romachko on Nov 12, 2004

There may be few German and Japanese women in MOB sites, but I'd wager there are far more Japanese/American and German/American married couples than there are Russian/American or Ukranian/American couples. There are simply different techniques for meeting. Few of the former set out to specifically find a foreign spouse - it just worked out that way.

- Jeff

[tim360z]

... in response to It is economics, stupid!, posted by romachko on Nov 12, 2004

its economics.  Isn't everything?  Stupid?  Don't get that one?  Non-constructive.

[LP]

... in response to of course, posted by tim360z on Nov 12, 2004

[This message has been edited by LP]

...When he says "stupid" I believe him to be paraphrasing a point from another presidental election a long time ago. (lol, this from a guy who, if I recall, is 68 and in the process of marrying a young girl).

It's no secret why foreign women want MOB men, the real interesting points are why the men want them. I could write a book on this as I see it. It has a lot to do with the dual fallacies that FSU women are "better" than other women and that domestic women are "bad". Of course, neither assertion could be further from the truth.

[romachko]

... in response to of course, posted by tim360z on Nov 12, 2004

Let's put it this way. How many AW want to marry FSU men?
If you subtract the number of AW who want to marry FSU from the number of FSU women who want to marry AM, you get the number of FSU women whose reason is primarily economics. So what? Nothing is wrong with this as long as it produces happiness for both. After all rich men are always sought after by many girls in this country too. Only a dumb woman, AW or RW, will marry an unemployed man just for love. Pravda?

Many years ago feminist groups criticized American men for marrying Phillipina and cited cases of their failure. But stats show that divorce rate among them is far less than that of the general public. People tend to jump on the failure of anything unconventional and exagerate the situation. I believe that there are many happily mearied AM-RW couples no matter what the original intention was. Their voices are rarely heard in public because normality hardly makes news. Media likes to cover disaster because people love it as long as it's not their own problem.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: of course, posted by romachko on Nov 12, 2004

say, "I'll take the poor guy."  Most women yearn for a certain degree of security,  been like that through the ages.  Many reasons for that.  But,  even women of 15,000 years ago chose the guy who put the meat on the table,  had some status within the tribal group and could take care of her and her progeny.  The women with the dumb gene that chose the poor guy or the one with no hunting skills or void of inter-tribal status probably died and so did her progeny.  Thus not passing on that dumb gene.  

Today,  the majority of women will favor the better provider,  its like a prerequisite.  Its in her criteria list for selection of a potential mate.

I got no problem with that.  In fact it makes very good common sense.  Good economic sense.  Sooner or later,  everything has at its heart...economics.