Here is what has happened so far.

[Philb]

... in response to I am with you, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

I don't know.  I never really thought about it because I knew it was not an opption

[BrianN]

... in response to Re: well worded, posted by Philb on Mar 6, 2002

is your enthusiasm.

If it's there, then it comes out and it's difficult to hide.  Heck, the only reason why I even read and post on this thread is because of my enthusiasm for this process and watching everyone go through it, and I'm drooling with the same, to finish it myself successfully.

I just went through my own crap fest with my lady in the last two months.  It was VERY hard on me... her too.  But it was all a communication problem, and dumping the protocol, for naturalism.

I look back and laugh at my idiotic fears, that almost caused me to dump her... what a fool I would have been, had I not had the friggin brains to be patient, and play dumb a little... eventually, the dam broke between us, and the "surface" romantic protocol was gone forever.  Now, she's so comfortable, and open with me (not hiding anything), that she even criticises my bad russian sometimes, and it's like... hmmm, this is what I was looking for in the first place.  A woman that wasn't afraid of me.

Not just a lover, but a real friend, and confidant in life, for everything.

Recently, I learned something very important about this... and that was that I was more truthful, open and honest with my interpreter than I was with her.  Then I felt like maybe my interpreter was the better choice?  No.  It's just that we didn't have the protocol between us to deal with.  We just talked.  About anything, and everything, very freely. I decided that if it was going to work with L and I, then I had to have the same kind of open closeness with L also.

That is what I pursued... and it is where "WE" succeeded together, but it took a lot of hell to get here.  

In some ways, I would side with the pros on this, to give her a chance, (but passively).  After all, you've done a lot so far, now it's time to see if she'll break down those emotional barriers she's got, and see if the real person you're looking for in her, is able to get down on the same level as you.

If she does, then you'll have a LOT to celebrate, because many couples never even get this far, even after being married for years!

If she can't, or won't, then I'd just walk away and be nice about it.

[thesearch]

... in response to well worded, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

sd

[Natalya]

... in response to what a crap fest., posted by BrianN on Mar 5, 2002

Bryan, I totally agree with you.Test with younger, richer,nicer looking guy wouldn't work because if she is smart lady she simply won't respond to anybody for the next few months.

[juio99]

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I will first repeat what I said to your previous post.  Both man and woman should keep all of their options open until the formal engagement.

Others here have said similar things more elequently.

And it appears that you understand this for yourself as you say:  "I may write some additional women."

OK, so you see the light.

Now the question is why do you not think what is fair for the gander is fair for the goose?

So get over it.  Continue to write other ladies and let her correspond with other men.
Then go see her as planned, and plan to see some other women also.  Hope that she sees some other men.  In that way, when you are together, both of you will have some points of comparison.  If you want to marry her, propose.  If she wants to marry you, she will accept.  You will both make a commitment to cut off correspondence with others.  You will get married and live happily ever after; or you will stray after marriage; or she will stray after marriage; or you both will.

Life goes on.

I heard someone say that the reason men often lie to women is because women ask so many questions.  That appears to be the case in reverse here.  Stop inquiring about what she is doing.  You have no claim on her at this point.  No proposal of marriage, no acceptance, no engagement.

JR

[thesearch]

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002


I understand totally about not wanting to test her. There is a certain distastefull aspect about such for sure. But, this is why nice guys get screwed. I am not saying you are going to get screwed. It is just that if she is tested, you might have your answer and thus possibly avoid  worse future heartache and more financial loss.  However, you are doing what you perceive as the honorable thing by trusting her. And, you are correct that is the honorable thing to do if there is no reason to not trust her.

However, I am going to challenge you on this if I might. You see, the rules have changed with her ads showing up in the time sequence that they have. Also the fact that one of the photo's is recent (the time of your visit) - taken at a time when having her place an ad following that time frame is not appropriate. So, another agency would not have had that photo to send to sell to anyone. So that possibility is not very likely. If your lady never gave you a reason to be suspicious, it would a very wrong thing to test her and nothing more than a reflection of paranoia.

But, now she reveals more facts - now about a co-worker who asked her out. Why did she not tell you this at first? In my years, I have seen a common trend with people who lie. When the liar starts to think that the lie is not being believed the liar conjures up more lies to try and make the story more believable, this continues until the original lie is believed.  

"At this point I still do not believe I have gotten the complete story. I do not think she is seriously looking to meet another man. If anything thing i think she may be trying to keep some options open on some level. (If I do not ask her to marry me in June she will at least have some correspondance going)."

Sorry, but it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself here. I ask you these two questions.

1) With your last meeting, do you think that there was any doubt in her mind that your relationship was moving toward marriage?

2) Did you reveal to her your intentions of marriage versus keeping her in the dark?

If your answers are no and yes respectfully to these questions ---------------- she has no position keeping her options open. A woman does not do this if she is in love -- she only does this if she has an agenda.

Now before, I said that she may be innocent but, it does not look good especially with her story expanding.

Now, instead of testing her, you are not going to proceed with the K-1 in June and perhaps write to other ladies. Do you think that if this lady is innocent that this going to promote a good relationship with her? Do you think that this will promote her feeling that you will trust her? Or, can you see how this could actually get her to think that she needs to expand her options and that perhaps you are not the right man for her? Are you going to tell her that you are going to send more letters to other women? If you are not, where is the honor and trust in this action? These things will all become real to her.

If someone you do not know tests her, there is not way this will become real as not trusting her unless you decide to tell her. With your approach it is clear to her that you do not trust her.

I get the sense you are going to hang in there until you get over this and then proceed. My call is testing her with an unknown man will cause less trouble. However, the only problem is that you have let her know that you are aware of her ads and she may decide to not respond to a guy, not because she does not want to but because she is concerned now about getting caught. She may already be corresponding with other men for all you know.

There is a time when being honorable shifts to being unwise. Where is that point? Everyone has a line drawn in the sand, it is just where we draw it. Again, I only have some of the facts, you have them all, only you can know what is the right thing to do. Sometimes, we need to learn a lesson and we choose the path that will teach us that lesson. When is it that you are making the right choice - either way - that being of knowing what is the right thing to do and the other of choosing the option  to learn a lesson.

[Philb]

... in response to ok, posted by thesearch on Mar 5, 2002

My answers to the above questions are no and yes respectively.

And yes if I write other women I will let her know otherwise I would be being dishonest with her.

As far as the K1 process if I have doubts about her I will not do it.

[Quasimoto]

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I understand your situation Philb, but I must tell you that your last sentence: "I guess I am going to continue to maintain a relationship with her. I do not think I will be initiating the Visa process in June. I may write some additional women. I will be watching her", is basically reflective of what she is probably doing. If we write to 100 women, why in our arrogance do we expect each of those women to cling to the thin thread of hope we cast at them. One thing to keep in mind, is that reason would show they are the ones usually in a modicum of jeaparody in this world, not us! They have the most to lose, not us! And where we go over "selecting" our babes from our little accumulated harems, they will probably have one chance to make good. Remember that 95% of the guys who write never go over. Do you think she knows this? Do you think she may feel you might just be another lost case of "hope" like so many others these women eventually regard with skepticism. If you both had proposed a commitment and love to each other then I could view this differently. But Philb, I wonder how much of your suffering is ego, and how much is really betrayal. I say this, because I have been in the same boat, and felt the same way you do. But eventually I had to face the truth about just what I was offering and what I was getting in return.

Steve

[Charles]

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I agree with Mark's post that there are probably other explanations.  I asked my wife what she thought and she said if he has not proposed he should not complain that her profile may still be out there.  There is always a great fear that the man will lose interest.  These girls know that there are thousands of profiles to choose from and that it is a difficult process.  They are aware of the successes and failures of ladies in their city.  They are not likely to commit to one person unless it really looks like a sure thing.  She also agreed that the recent profile did not necessarily mean she had lost interest.  I recall having to remove several of my wife's profiles after we were married.  I would be inclined to believe her and, if you really want her, go for her.  If not, get off the pot.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

Just my opinion... but here goes...

After reading all of your "evidence" and "theories"... your plots and sub-plots, my reaction can be summed up in two simple words:

WHO CARES???

The way I see it... one of three things is happening:

1. Other people are placing her ads. This is not so unusual. I have actually had it happen to me. I have an ad running on bride.ru right now, that I never placed.

2. She is waiting for you to make a move, but isn't willing to take put all of her eggs in a basket who left months ago, and made no official commitment to her yet.  So, she leaves a few lines in the water.

3. She is playing you for a total fool.

NOTHING that you have said would lead us to option 3.

If it is option 1... all you are doing by throwing all of this in her face is making yourself look like a jerk.

If it is number 2... again, I say: WHO CARES???

So what if she wants to keep a door open in case you don't come through in June? As long as you come through in June, that makes it all a moot point, doesn't it?

Listen... someone said something to me once that I found really profound, so I'll pass it on to you:

The problem in most relationships is that we judge others by their actions... but we judge ourselves by our intentions.

I think there is some of that going on here.

I mean, here you are... fully INTENDING to propose to her in June. So... WHY HAVEN'T YOU PROPOSED TO HER YET???

Your intentions are known only to you. Your ACTIONS haven't shown her anything except that you like her a lot. How does SHE know that you don't have a girlfriend here in the states? How does SHE know what will happen in June?

You make it sound like she is going out with other men and sleeping with them. THAT may be cause for concern.

But placing ads on the internet? Even if she is doing it... WHO CARES???

You're going to let paranoia and "red flag fever" ruin a perfectly good relationship.

IMHO

[AndyDrew]

... in response to Personally, I think you are making a mis..., posted by MarkInTx on Mar 5, 2002

A big "me to!" on what Mark said.

My girl's ad took a while for the agency to take off.  She kept on getting letters for a few months afterwards.  She told me all about them and it was a good laugh for both of us.  

There are so many "marriage networks" out there that even if the one she is registered with removes the add it still may be on other ones.  When you add in some places that outright steal ads--I'm sure it's almost impossible to completely remove an ad (if it is "desirable" for the agency.)

You should also let her know what your intentions are.

[Philb]

... in response to I agree, posted by AndyDrew on Mar 5, 2002

There is a difference though all of her ads have been placed on free sites.  This is not AFA, Absolut, Anastasia, etc. selling profiles.  These are Russian sites that would not fit the description we usually apply to an "agency".

There is also another difference.  Your girl told you about them.  Mine did not.

[Philb]

... in response to Personally, I think you are making a mis..., posted by MarkInTx on Mar 5, 2002

And I could very well be one now.  The intentions/actions deal is a good point.  As far as throwing things in her face, do you think it is actually better to not say anything?

Why have I not proposed to her yet?  She has always been extremely cautious in regards to expressing her feelings etc..  It was not until this second trip in Jan/Feb that she seemed resonably certain of her feelings towards me.  With that being the case,  I told her I would be coming back in June with the sole purpose of proposing to her and beginning the Visa process.  I told her that between now and then she needed to think about our relationship.  I told her I wanted her to be certain of me.  

You are correct that she has no guarrantees.  The only thing I will say is that I have followed through on everyting I have ever told her and she knows this.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Sometimes I am a jerk ; ), posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

SO... lemme get this straight...

You told her you were going to propose to her? (Isn't that like making an appointment to make an appointment?)

OK. That is more that I thought you had committed to.

But you told her to "make sure" of you?

Sounds like she decided to do that by seeing if there were anyone else who caught her fancy...

I would say that if her feelings were that unsure that you are smart to pull back on your idea to propose...

[Philb]

... in response to I missed that before, posted by MarkInTx on Mar 7, 2002

The reason I so bluntly stated the intended purpose of my June trip was so that there would be no doubt in her mind of my intended purpose.  At times she has exhibited some statements that lead me to believe that she was some difficulty with trust.  Not a lot of problem (as compared to some divorced women I have known), but it is there.  She has made statements in the past such as "Sometimes I wonder if this is just a big adventure to you".  

I think that trust (on both sides) is a very difficult thing to build and maintain in these relationships.  We obviously can't see eachother on a daily basis etc.. So, I told her this to reduce some of the doubts that are bound to come up over the next few months and leave no questions in regards to my thoughts concerning our relationship.