... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

First of all, Terry, no, it would not be fair to either of you.  Do not be unequally yolked.  The rest of this post is for those wondering about the scarfs and the Lavra.  The Lavra museum was highly recommended as a 900 year old holy place that I must see before leaving Kiev.  I was very disappointed with the place.  It is a bunch of caves under a church that are designed as a tourist trap.  All of the mummies are the same size (small) and in the same dark blue and yellow costume and in the same glass showcases.  All of the Ukrainians believe them to be saints since they are supposed to be the monks that lived in the monastery in ancient times.  Many of the people visiting said prayers to the so called saints being ignorant of the fact that a dead corpse (saint or no saint) is not going to answer anyone's prayers.  I did appreciate the fact that the monastery and all of the church museums required the females to wear a scarf and gown before entering.  If they were not wearing a dress and scarf, a deposit could be left to borrow them.  William gave the correct answer on this question but I will second his reply and spell it out for the people that don't feel like getting a Bible and reading it.  (I already had my Bible open to that section before I saw William's reply.)  In summation, God set forth this rule and the reason the Western churches stopped doing it was due to giving in to the desires of the people in addition to misinterpreting the Bible and thinking that it meant that a scarf was not necessary because her long hair was her covering.  That statement about hair was intended to support the rule not refute it.  1 Corinthians 11:2-16:     Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.  But every  woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head.  For that is even all one as if she were shaven.  For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn, but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man.  For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man.  Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman for the man.  For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.  Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the lord.  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman (born from a woman), but all things of God.  Judge in yourselves:  is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?  Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?  But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:  for her hair is given her for a covering.  But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no custom, neither the churches of God.

... in response to Re: women , religion and the Lavra, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

The Orthodox church is pretty sensitive about western religions sending missionaries and attempts
to convert Orthodox Christians into 'real' christians.
The arrogance and 'hollier than thou' attitude is quit offensive on several levels, and this could
be the cause for the reaction you received.
Just My 2¢

... in response to Re: Re: Re: women , religion and the Lav..., posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

WmGo, I think you failed to realize that you need permission to enter most places in a monastery. You are not allowed behind the Iconostasis where the altar is either. Churches are for the laity, monasteries are for the seclusion and works of monastics. You were intruding upon private places in their home with arrogance. I'm sure I would have no problem taking a tour of the prayer rooms simply by asking humbly when would it be convenient to see them.

-blm

... in response to Public and not public places...., posted by BarryM on Feb 17, 2002

Barry,

You have made an incorrect assumption. One based on the fact that you have never been to Kiev and the Lavra Monastery.

I know perfectly well that the area behind the alter in the Orthodox Church (and any other church) is only for the priests. And I have enough horse sense to know that you just don't go wondering around someone else's property without permission.

FYI, the Lavra is one of the major (probably *the* major) tourist attractions in all of Ukraine and Kiev. All day everyday it is filled with Ukrainians and people from other countries. The Lavra is a large complex of green onion domed cathedrals and churches on two big hills overlooking the west bank of the Dniper. The Lavra's main attraction (which is highly publicized to draw people in) is the catocombs that are lined with mummified remains of ancient monks. At any given time there are several hundred people winding their way shoulder to shoulder through the catacombs. The prayer room that I was denied access to is a *part* of the tour through the catocombs. All Ukrainians have access to it without asking anyone for permission - they just walk on in.

On the occassion in question, I was in line just like everyone else (hundreds of people) moving toward this prayer room that is full of ancient icons. The dozens of people ahead of me went on in while the monk just sat there. As I got to the front I was stopped - just because of my nationality.

Another thing that bothered me about the Lavra is that it charges foreigners(Westerners) twenty times the normal admission fee. A church should set a good example,and perpetuating the double standard that there is one price for locals and another higher price for foreigners is plain wrong.

But I will say this: it is an incredibly beautiful complex and a must see.

WmGO

... in response to It sounds like a Ukrainian thing..., posted by BarryM on Feb 17, 2002

I heard they were starting a new Lavra in northwest Georgia!

I know, real bad. Sorry everyone. The devil made me do it

... in response to Re: women , religion and the Lavra, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

I don't know if true Christianity exists in the Orthodox churches of Ukraine or not.  I was amazed to see a Chinese man in the middle of Krashatuck street with a microphone saying "God loves you."  It was on the weekend when that street is closed to traffic and full of families walking around the downtown area.  I thought it was amazing because here was a man shouting the gospel in English and having it interpreted to the people right in the capitol of a former atheist country that has suppressed religion for so long.  I'm also encouraged to be corresponding with a young Christian lady that is on an evangelist team in Ukraine.  So true Christianity is starting to sprout there.  At least your friend has questions which is a good start.

... in response to The truth is..., posted by NK on Feb 16, 2002

But what if you are not Catholic, a Catholic might be ok if you are Methodist, since they are a spawn of the Catholic church, but what if you happen to be Baptist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, Episcopal, Moravian, Lutheran or of any other sect.......,What then?