America

[Reagan]

It seems a lot of people on this board have a negative image of America. These individuals use the one size fits all comment to describe millions of people they have never even seen, much less met. If I had as much contempt and spite for America as some of the Americans on this board, I would move tomorrow. As for the Canadians that dislike my country, I can see why. Their best and brightest come here because they can make more money. Every two or three years, one of their hockey teams moves down. Still, the US/Canadian border is the longest unguarded border in the world.

Examine the following sentence please:

American "distance": Americans distance themselves from each other.

Let's just make a little change.

Black "distance": Blacks distance themselves from each other. That comment would go over real well in Harlem or Atlanta.

Get the point? I am sure that some of you do because I have read your posts and some of you have helped me with some good information. We can get on this board and slam the terrible Americans. I guess that includes my parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, cousins, and friends. They are all Americans, just like me.

Well sorry, but these unprovable generalizations silly provincial comments don't resemble my family or friends at all. I am very thankful for the life I have had here. It hasn't always been easy, but I truly feel blessed to have grown up here. If some of you guys are unhappy here, why not move to another country? If life is so terrible here and the people are so awful, why not get away as soon as possible? You can even go to a US consulate or Embassy and renounce your citizenship. It is an option.

I can guarantee you that if a student, in a Philosophy or Critical Thinking class, used the ad populam, bifrucation, and converse accident ridden fallacies that some of you guys use, they would flunk the class. I know some of you boys are going to need a dictionary, especially LP and Micha1, but take the time, you might learn something. And last but not least, if you think your arguments are provable or valid, I dare any one of you that uses these types of arguments to email a college Philosophy or English professor.

Cheers

Kevin

[Jimmy]

... in response to America, posted by Reagan on Jan 9, 2002

Most of you have never lived in Ukraine for any extended period of time so I don't think you are well qualified to compare the attributes of this country to America.  But if you want the experience then move over here and live among the locals and live as they do.  I think you will gladly rush back to the good ole USA in a real hurry and kiss the ground when you get there.

You have the benefit of something that these people do not have.  You have what many men died for in previous wars and that is freedom.  You have a judical system that protects your right to wear any type of clothes, live anywhere, and say anything you want.  You are allowed to own and carry weapons, travel where ever you want, write and publish anything you desire.

Most of you that find fault in America don't have the slightest concept of what you have in your country.  Please do yourself a favor and move over here for one year.  I will assure you that you will be the biggest complainers of what you left behind.

I left the US a year ago to do international work. I spent 56 years in the US and never left it.  This is my first experience outside my country.  I came here for an international experience and to make money.  If the money wasnt't there to make I would be back home in a heartbeat.  I too was somewhat disgusted with the way America had become but learned in a real hurry what I left behind.  There is no shining light in this world like the US.  If you think so then identify it and move there.

Upon my arrival here a year ago I noticed immediately that no one smiles or wears a happy face.  I miss that more than anything.  RW posted this same observation in her post.  She must have noticed the reverse since she came to America and noticed everyone smiles and is generally happy.  There is very little to smile about here.

You men on this board only find one thing attractive about the FSU.  And that is the women.  If that didn't exist you wouldn't give this area a second thought.  So to rationalize away your attraction to the FSU for other reasons than the women is pure BS.  You present arguments about Russian culture, pride, etc. etc. is to defend your search for a wife.

If your RW misses the FSU so much then seriously tell her that you have to move back here and live on the same wages that everyone else does.  I venture to say that you wouldn't be able to get her back here with a team of horses to live on $100 a month. Oh, I am sure that she will move back here if she was sure that she still had your American wages to live on.  But when she realizes that she will have to live on the same wages that everyone else does I would bet she bolts the other way.

So many of you don't know what it like to do without the comforts of the US.  And believe me it will be the little comforts, like hot water 24/7, good medical care, honest police and judical system, excellant telephone service, good highways without potholes that jar your teeth, good ole American steak, American food variety, and a host of other problems you will notice that will grate on you until you realize that they are what you took for granted in America.  All you see is the beauty of these women and very little else.  After a short time here the beauty of these women is not so noticeable.  But the lack of hot water to take a shower with will be.  Corrupt DAI extorting money from you for absolutely nothing will be.  Not being able to get an operator on the telephone will be.  Eating the same food everyday will be.  I for one will return to the country that can have can give me those little comforts.  Many men died for those rights and comforts that make America great.  Yes, they even died for the likes of Jerry Springer.

If you seriously think that America has given you a raw deal then move to Ukraine and I will meet you in Kiev and show you something else besides the hotties on display downtown.

Please spare me the disgust I have when I read how Russian or Ukrainian life is superior to what we have in the US.  I am not a flag waver nor will ever be but I certainly know where I can find the best life on earth.  It's not here in FSU.

As always these are my opinions only.  Yours may vary.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Oblast

[JohnL]

... in response to America or Ukraine, posted by Jimmy on Jan 10, 2002

........... Jimmy, your post is just 'oozing;' with sincerity. Wonderful post.

I just wish the rest of the world (Males, especially on this Board) thought like you. Some of us here in Aus (Oz) feel exactly
the same way Bro, just take care. I will pray for your safe & healthy return home with 'Job Finished'.

Keep posting Mate, I appreciate your wonderful enlightment and knowledge that you portray on this board. Just so sad that all of what you say is so realistic. How do I prepare myself for my next 'holiday' when I have become acustomed to h/w and a/c +++ 24/7 , and sadly, 'chuck in a tad' of C-137 ?

Thank You & Take Care
John

[WmGo]

... in response to America or Ukraine, posted by Jimmy on Jan 10, 2002

I second that reality check.

[tim360z]

... in response to America or Ukraine, posted by Jimmy on Jan 10, 2002

with you.  Although I have never lived or been in Ukraine or Russia.  And I have yet to meet anyone from the FSU who has been here over 3 years who wants to go back to live there...only to visit relatives and friends.  But,  I have met a few people who have only been here for a month or 2 and they DEFINITELY want to go back,  and some do.  And they talk about the negative American Culture etc.  I beleive it has alot to do with confidence and integrating into our economic infrastucture and dealing with our social norms and understanding America.  And having a fluent command of English. Simple things,  like if you get pulled over by a cop for speeding---you are not going to be dragged away.  Or shaken down for a bribe.  Humans are a very comparative species,   which is difficult to do when confronting an unknown country.  And it is always best to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.  We do not have to build walls to keep people from leaving...Point of fact:  How many people immigarated to live in Ukraine or Russia in the last 5 years or 10 or 20??? Personally,  I think it is very natural for a new bride to look back whistfully at her homeland and miss many things from her culture.  And to have pride in many aspects of where she came from.  Many other new immigrants from other countries feel the samething...it is not unique to former FSU.  It is probably healthy to have as one makes the adjustment to living in a new world. My 2 kopeks

[thesearch]

... in response to Thanks Jimmy,  I have to agree, posted by tim360z on Jan 10, 2002

Just another note - many larger cities have international districts. This alone demonstrates the desire of many hold on to their heritage.

[thesearch]

... in response to America or Ukraine, posted by Jimmy on Jan 10, 2002

Thanks for your post. No doubt about it - the Ole USA is one of the best places to live on planet earth. I know that I am spoiled to all of its amenities.

In a post below you said that you were going to live in Ukraine half time and USA half time - still the plan? Form this post it sounds like you are re thinking that.

I personally think that it would be quite a sacrifice to remain in Ukraine. I would like to experience it for a year for the experience and also the opportunity to take my time in finding the woman for me- but that is about it.

I would not mind living a year here and a year there experiencing many places but to imagine that there was not the USA to return to is not a pleasant thought for me.

It is not because of the people I must admit but simply the amenities. I do not think that Americans are special relative to many other peoples in any means. When people get spoiled there is a behavior problem that surfaces as well as a good side. When there is a lack of material wealth the same is true but different.

[thesearch]

... in response to America, posted by Reagan on Jan 9, 2002

Kevin,

I do not think that this discussion will ever come to any form of resolution.

I say this because everyone's viewpoint is colored from things such as pride, what one considers is acceptable and what one's life experience has been. IMHO since this will vary greatly from person to person there is no common reference point.

Leave the USA? I would take your advice if I could but for me it would not be about leaving the USA - it would be about leaving planet earth. But, even though humans are a really screwed up species - I am not interested in leaving as I am having such an interesting adventure on this planet. It is worth the danger and drawback of having to mingle with humans as a species in general. I have personally solved the problem by choosing who I mingle with and letting all the others interact with themselves as best as possible. You might think from these words that I am negative - contrary - I am viewed as being a very positive person and people come to me commonly to get a good feeling fix.

In contrast, if any one here can tell me that they would be proud to represent Planet Earth on an Intergalactic counsel - well then their idea of acceptable behavior and mine is simply different. I do not care about any rationalizations - all I think that is relevant is the end result of our behavior - all one has to do is take one look at what is happening on this planet to see what humans e manifest globally.  

I am an American, and I support America but, for me to serve her well I fell that I must acknowledge what is wrong with her along with what is good - as to not do this would only limit my ability to make her better. I just can not align with the mentality that chooses to look at the good sides of and issue to the extent that it becomes difficult to be objective about shortcomings.

I am not saying that you are doing this - it is good to be proud of one's country and focus on it's strengths. Negative people in the end tend to be the problem more than the positive. To be negative and not acknowledge the good in a country is even worse than being blind to negative as I would suspect that such attitude will erode seriously the moral of a country.

Pride is good, it makes one positive about moving forward and joining together people in unified cause. Generalizations get attacked I have noticed even if there is truth to them simply by our own scoring system. I think that this is easier to do the less observant you are, or the more isolated you are. Hey the people in my life are nothing like the generalizations stated but, I see that there are a lot of people who fit those descriptions.

Arguments can be like the debate over the question - is homo sapiens basically good or basically evil? My answer anymore is - if homo sapiens is basically good a large number of its species simply do not know how to express it.

[tim360z]

... in response to America, posted by Reagan on Jan 9, 2002

America is alive and well.  Now,  it is really easy to conveniently bash this or that or whatever.  Jerry Springer etal.  High culture survivies in most envirions...it depends what you choose to look at: in regard to that mis-flouted word,  "culture".  There is plenty of "high culture" in America---but do not expect too much on the tube.  Our "high culture" is very much alive and in little danger of crumbling.  No matter where in the world an artist may come from...this IS the place to have your "art" accepted or rejected,  performed or exhibited.  If you have any doubt,  go to MOMA or The Metropolitian or Lincoln Center or The Getty or....there are hundreds more.  High culture is here...you have to make the effort to find it.  In fact ask the artists or performers themselves..as I have...and this is the place.  If your "art" makes it in America...you have made it.  Ask Yoyo.....he has performed in my little town.

[Kenfer8]

... in response to America, posted by Reagan on Jan 9, 2002


America may have a lot of problems and flaws. But go to any third world country and see which embassy has the longest line to get a visa (tourist, student, etc). Whcih one do you think will be more crowded, USA's or Russia's?

[KenC]

... in response to America, posted by Reagan on Jan 9, 2002

Kevin,
With your thin skin regarding critisism of this country, you will have a difficult time should you ever bring a RW here.  I am much more open minded to the shortcomings of this country than you. Even I was pushed too far by my wife a few times since her arrival.  My attitude was to try to explain things she didn't understand and to defend unwarrented critisism.  But it is also important to recognize that there are some things that ARE better in Russia too.  You also have to be mature enough to let the woman come to understand America better over time.  It is human nature to fault what you do not understand.  Russians have a tremendous amount of pride in their Motherland.  You must also respect that too.  This is an area that can create huge problems in a relationship if you let it.  With your low level of tolerance for the posters here, how will you ever handle the negative comments coming from someone living in your own home?
KenC

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Re: Americac-tolerance, posted by KenC on Jan 9, 2002

KEN

We are all aware of the vices and virtues of America, however our purpose here on the board is to identify the RW's perception of America,whether those perceptions are wrong or right. Once we have identified those isssues that may be the cause of misunderstanding or conflict we can then work with our RW to make sure that her transition to life in America be as smooth as possible. Here's where the married guys like yourself can be of invaluable help to the rest of us. Charles below make an excellent post about his wife's adaptation to America.

Btw thanks for your post on movies below. I thought a date to the movies was for teenagers, I am glad to learn that its a big deal for RW.LOL.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Americac-tolerance, posted by KenC on Jan 9, 2002

When he poins out that blanket statements are invariably wrong. And invariably offensive.

America is surely not perfect.

But to say that everyone in America is:

"Distanced" -- nonsense. I have neighbors who would help me out in a minute, and I've only lived here a year. Not only that, but total strangers on the street will say hello to you. I have had some great conversations this week standing in a line for an airline ticket

"Uncultured" -- Depends on where you hang out. I don't even know what channel Jerry Springer is on, and I think South Park is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. I don't know about you, but my TV pulls in an amazing array of shows -- not all of them are reality TV by a long shot. It depends on where you stop on the dial -- don't blame our culture if you watch South Park. Three days ago, I was talking to one of my best friends -- an Irish cop in Pittsburgh. In his conversation, he made allusions to Goethe, Hemingway, and Shakespere... just that I can remember. Yeah, he also made references to motorcycles, hot women, and beer. But the conversation was far from "uncultured..." It ranged, as all good conversations do.

"Provincialism" Russians learn all about cultures in school? Gimme a break. Does anyone think that the Russian schools teach a fair version of America culture? I dated a St. Petersburg girl who was one year away from her Phd. What she didn't know about America was amazing. Not that I knew any more about Russia. But, don't tell me that America is more Provincial than Russia! Switzerland, maybe. But not Russia!

"Exercise/Fitness" No doubt, Russians get more exercise than Americans. But if all of them owned cars... would they? There are incredibly fat and lazy Americans. But don't throw all Americans in that class. I'm not.

"Self Image" Again, this is an awfully broad brush. I saw Russian women taking a lot of pride in their appearance (God Bless Them) But I have to tell you... the guys I saw didn't seem to take any more time than guys here do...

"Youth and Manners" My daughter always says please and thank-you. So do I, and all of my brothers. I know many polite kids. I also know many that I would love to take over my knee and give a good spanking to. You think this is a situation peculiar to America? You need to get out more...

"In your face" cultural influence? Again, I guess it depends on where you live. I can't speak for New York. But here in Dallas, it's just not true. Unless you count all of the cowboys walking around in wranglers and brushpopper shirts with hats on. Is that "In your face?" I don't know. I'm not a cowboy, but it never bothered me. When I grew up in Pittsburgh, the only "In your face" thing was black and gold colors, and the Steeler logo.

I'm not saying that all of what JohnK said was untrue. I'm just saying that it is impossible to say A) All of America is like that and B) it's all the fault of our "Culture".

Don't forget, though, that our culture also brought us things like:

Freedom of speech, so you can say what you did without fear of being locked up

The Telephone - Next time you talk to your Russian Lady, thank American culture.

The computer: It's invention, and all major enhancements were created right here. You couldn't type on your computer to trash America, without America's invention.

The Internet: Al Gore didn't invent it, but America sure did (Universities and DOD) Yes, I know it is a world-wide-web -- but where would it be without American business' money, Sun Servers, and -gasp!- Microsoft?

Commercial Air-travel: Linburgh was American, and so was TWA. Without American transportation business, a mail order bride would be impossible to talk about.

So... don't be so quick to trash the culture that gave you everything you need to go on this venture.

Freedom means that ideas flourish.

As well as the other things.

Take the good with the bad...

[John K]

... in response to In Defense of America, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 9, 2002

Again, this post was taken out of context and made the main point of this feed.  All I was doing was answering the question as to why many Russians dislike living in America.  The opinions expressed are not necessarily my own.  It is important, however, to realize that these opinions are likely to be prevalent in a newly settled Russian lady.

As Patrick has so eloquently said, the "America - Love it or Leave it" types are going to have a difficult time with a foreign wife.  My wife is certainly no wallflower.  She has a temper and is not afraid to go head to head with me when she feels she is right.  From what I've seen, read and heard, most Russian women are the same way.  Maintaining such an inflexible attitude isn't going to do your reputation as a kind and understanding person any good.

Likewise, America bashers who fail to admit good things in America are likewise going to have a hard time with a foreign bride.  The issue at hand is understanding and flexibility.  All I was trying to do was give someone a little better understanding of what seems to be prevalent opinions among the Russian/Ukrainian people I've talked to.  

Mind you, most of the people I talk to have only been here one or two years.  From what I understand, they really don't settle into American life for upwards of 3 to 5 years.  But then again, I don't think most of us are going to find and marry a Russian woman who has been here already for that length of time.  So my observations are indeed valid for most of those who are just entering their relationship.  Perceptions will change over time and acceptance will happen.  Just don't expect it within the first month or two...

I would suggest that a man marrying a Russian lady learn to develop a "thick skin" regarding such issues.  If we are unable to weather a little criticism, then we will likely become too weak a partner for our lady to fully appreciate us.  It doesn't mean that we have to agree with our lady every time, but by shooting down every negative opinion she has, you will never achieve true intimacy with your girlfriend/wife, as she will not trust you enough to share her opinions.

Hopefully, that clarifies things a little...

[tim360z]

... in response to Don't shoot the messenger..., posted by John K on Jan 9, 2002

please keep it coming.