Here is my story, I'm not a Troll

[Scaught]

... in response to Here is my story, I'm not a Troll, posted by No more RW on Nov 24, 2001

In a former life four years ago, I dated a Ukrainian lady (ethnically Russian, if that makes a difference) and this happened in the U.S. She was 24. I got to know some of her friends. I couldn't stand being with them. They were all in their early twenties and students. They hung out in a particular bar frequently, even in the day. They were all (about five altogether) after green cards. The guy in the group was greatly admired by the other Russian and Ukrainian girls. He was very tall, fair, and good looking. He had gotten his green card. He married an American girl. The FSU girls said nothing but nasty things about her. Mainly, they said she was stupid because he was cheating on her constantly and she didn't know and she trusted him. So she, not her, was despicable and they all practically laughed in her face whenever they saw her. That guy was from Russia, and he was constantly failing his classes because he wouldn't study. He didn't apply himself because he said he already knew everything the professors (this was at a large university) had to say. He was always drunk, driving like a maniac, and occasionally crashing his car. He kept talking America down, and said he'd go back to Russia, but the last I heard he was still in the U.S.

The other green card situations among them: one of the young Russian students was dating an older Russian guy with a green card and they were planning marriage. A Ukrainian student in the group was going after a guy of Indian decent who had a green card-- he was in the armed services. He dropped her after a short while. And my girlfriend was going after me! I got very suspicious of my girlfriend after I saw this crowd she had hung around with (I wasn't entirely without suspicions in the first place-- this is always true when westerners date people from other countries-- it's built-in caution). In fact, although she was very beautiful (who cares that much!)-- I broke it off with her. I saw a very corrupt character. And I was down on the entire bunch and maybe even the country for a while as a knee-jerk reaction (I am only human).

However, shortly after, I also met some other people from Russia and the FSU (also in the U.S.). These people made an entirely different impression on me. The difference, I think is the difference between boys and men, girls and women. The first group I mentioned was immature. They were young, so what do you expect? The other group was well-educated, intelligent, ten to twenty years older, and I always enjoyed their company.

I understand why people would be extremely disappointed after a bad experience, and that would probably be an understatement, but let's be careful not to overgeneralize.  Doing so, I think, would be grossly unfair.

I am very sorry about your experience. I obviously don't think you are a troll-- when I first posted here, I was also branded a troll and I now await the slings and arrows that are sure to come my way-- I won't have to wait long! One thing I like about this board is that overall it is a positive support group. I have seen some other forums and the negativity about dating Russian women, in my opinion, is extreme. When negative experiences are posted here, people immediately yell, "Troll." (And sometimes they are right.) Probably this is one reason why there is so little negativity about dating Russian women on this forum. But moreover, I think there is less negativity because you have people here who are more experienced. They have had positive and negative experiences, just as they have had with AW.

I am really sorry about your situation. For those who know this can really happen, it sends shock waves through our virtual community here. Though there are precautions we may take, no one here is completely immune from this possibility. Your story may even be the last straw for some lurkers who were sitting on the fence-- they may now decide that they were crazy to even think of writing to Russian girls in the first place. I don't take your story as a wake up call, though, or find it shocking. I think most people on this board, at least the people who contribute here, are all proceeding with varying levels of caution. There is going to be a certain degree of mistrust built-in at least at first to this endeavor because of the apparent huge discrepancy between the standards of living here and over there. This is an undeniable fact, even though I definitely acknowledge the rich cultural lives many of them lead. I think it is important to have some perspective here, namely that there are, in my opinion, sincere ladies in the FSU who, although the upgraded living conditions are a real incentive, m o r e o v e r   want love, children, and a strong family, and they choose Western men for a blend of these reasons: a blend of realism and romance. And it is my impression that these women are not uncommon. Mature people from all countries know, I think, that if they don't follow their heart, they will live a miserable existence which is unviable for long.

I am very sorry about your situation. I hope you can and will send her packing and with time passing see that you wrote some unfair blanket condemnations based upon a very powerful and sad, yet limited experience. Personally, I admire Russians and Ukrainians very much and am very sorry that communism kept us from stronger ties much of the past century. It seems to me that they admire us very much, too. I wish for stronger ties between the countries, and that seems to be happening. I don't think it is fair putting down all Russians because of a bad relationship. I hope you will resolve the situation well, chock it up to a learning experience, and move on in time to a mature, loving relationship with a good woman, whether she comes from the U.S. or wherever.

[jj]

... in response to I have a similar experience, but not rep..., posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2001

I also have had my "bad" personal experience but I try not to generalise and taint all Russians/Ukrainians because of this experience.  I met many people who I hold in high regard.  (The Truth be known I still feel much for my ex-friend - But can no longer trust her).  But I am sure that theor are many Russian/Ukrainians that are not opportunists.  Are prepared to continue living in Russia and owrk towards bringing it out of its current demise. They are proud people and need our support and not pity.

I also was attacked by this Board - Jack in particular who continues to make smirking false remarks.  (Again I state I have never met Jack and whilst I sometimes agree with him I do not like his style) I just dismiss his bull_sht.  I also have learnt much in listening to those that post here.  I do not agree with them but I have learnt a lot...  you need to endure and stay longer to begin to understamd better this virtual community.  First impression is not the best...  The Troll hunters are not the best and their has been much maligned comments elsewhere abou the board but I think they are wrong as some here...  but there is a lot you can learn from sitting back and watching and participating from time to time ...

[thesearch]

... in response to I have a similar experience, but not rep..., posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2001

asdf

[Dan]

... in response to I have a similar experience, but not rep..., posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2001

"No more RW" as a troll - but neither am I willing to jump into the middle of the discussion. Whether he/she is, or is not, a troll is inconsequential to me.

What *is* important to me - are the sorts of sentiments you eloquently expressed in your message - such as the idealogy of communism which kept the Russians and Americans apart and at each other's throats for so many decades - such as the fact that bad and good can be found amongst the Russian community, just as easily as it can be found in the American community (and probably the Martian community too) - the tolerance of others and willingness to offer the benefit of the doubt until given a reason not to.

Good post.

Cheers,

- Dan

[LP]

... in response to Excellent Post Scaught!!!! I Don't Happe..., posted by Dan on Nov 24, 2001

....outta this!

lol...Danm! My cover is blown! "Reds" are *not* all the same so back off about the Martians. :-)

I agree. Scaught, ya done good...

[Den]

... in response to I have a similar experience, but not rep..., posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2001

No slings and arrows from me. I thought it was an excellent post with the right balance between the pro and con. This bopard could use more like it.

[LP]

... in response to Here is my story, I'm not a Troll, posted by No more RW on Nov 24, 2001

...Not much of a "story". I normally don't respond to you types but, since you mentioned me, I'll take a shot at it.

It's clear you've been reading the board for awhile (or perused the archives) as the bad breath comment was some time ago. FWIW, that has been my experience. Every single FSU woman I've met had a breath problem in varying degrees. So what? Millions of people the world over suffer from it also. It's easily remedied and not a big deal.

FSU dental issues are well known and most of the men involved understand that will need to be addressed. Again, so what? Is taking steps to make heathly the ones you care about so bad? Clearly you must have known this when you first became involved. Assuming your story is true, now that she hasn't worked out, the money is an issue? (Yeah, some Americans *can* be shallow, eh?) You must have known about it before you married her. lol...I remember giving a dental inspection to a girl I met. I was serious about her and she didn't mind as she knew it would lead to better health.

What you apparently *didn't* know is much else about this "woman". How long did you know her? How many visits? You don't state your age, but she's 25 so what did you expect? Whats her background? How educated, mature, ect were you at 25? Then again, your post implies you may be near that age anyway. I'll bet she never lived with a man before she married you. Sounds like you didn't do your homework or maybe you two are simply one of the unforunate unions that don't work out. Thats no reason to expect others who put more into it before *and* after to have the same results.

Yeah, I'll agree that some Americans can be ignorant, shallow and worthless. So can some Russians, apparently "your's" also. As for your "huge" Moscow survey, can you quote the source? The outpouring of sympathy at the US Embassy in Moscow seems to show that many Russians don't feel we "deserved" 9-11. What sane person would? (FWIW, I don't think we deserved it either but I *do* understand why the perpetrators thought so.)

My opinion, based only on *my* experiences are that yes, some Russians are the most morally bankrupt people I've ever met. But I know many, both men and women, who are pure gold and surpass any other culture I've dealt with. There seems to be no middle ground, if their bad their worse than "usual", if their good their *way* better than usual. Lazy by nature?? The men seem to be in many cases, but if you had bothered to learn anything about the history and culture you would know the women in general have powered the country for a long time. They have been mother, wife and the general Russian workforce for many years. They work very hard to this day carrying a load that would cause A/W women to dissolve into a puddle of goo. You think life in most FSU communities is easy? FSU women are many things but only one I've known could be classed as "lazy".

Look, I actually feel that the odds of *long term* success, in general, are not that great. All the more reason to take much more time and do it right. Did you? Even then there are no guarentees, yes? What did you expect, a fairy tale? Do you really think these people are totally different from other human beings? lol..If you cut them, do they not bleed? Besides, if you're gonna deal with a younger woman you'd better do your homework, as the combination of youth and differing cultures can be a formidable obstacle.

So you did the "Russian wife thing" and it didn't work out. Sounds like you're not taking any responsibility for it, after all, it takes two to tango. No one is more cynical or skeptical than I about this adventure, but such sweeping generalizations as your's just don't hold water. Me thinks you be a trollin. Ya know, if you're telling the truth, you *would* understand how you got into this situation as well as knowing how to get out of it. You don't offer us much else about your experience, so I wonder. If true, I can understand your animosity towards Russians but thats life, you and her simply didn't make the cut. Be a big boy, suck it up and move on.

If you're bent over this I understand your need to "help" us out but this isn't the way to do it. If it's all bunk or you be a trollin, your "need" is pathological. In fact, I suspect this entire post is simply an exercise in improving my typing skills and little else because you're a troll, and not a very good one at that. If not, calm down, tell us specifics and fess up to your part in it. Accept your share of responsibility because if you don't, it'll eat you alive.

Oh, one last note. If the benefit of the doubt I'm giving you is wrong (and I think it is), then I thank you for another lesson that I should ignore your kind in the future.

[No more RW]

... in response to Not a troll?....., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2001

I guess I just didn't know what I was getting myself into. It's too much work for me. Teaching driving to someone who doesn't even know what a brake light is. Doesn't know anything about checks, paying bills, dialing 411, or the thousands upon thousands of little things.

It's just too much to describe, I thought it would be fun to teach such a girl, fun to have her experience things for the first time, she doesn't swim so I'm teaching her, she doesn't drive so I'm teaching her, (just bought her a brand new car a month ago, she flucked her first two road tests, now she is affraid to do it again). So her brand new car just sits in the garage, waiting for her to learn to drive.

And the Russian Community thing, I encouraged her to make friends with some Russians so she could have people to talk with, very bad idea. The Russian Community is the worst community I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. They are the dullest people I have ever met, they show no emotion whatsoever, they could be in the most fun place in the world and they would say with a very dull tone, "fun".

They have no recognizable personality to speak of, they are dull and the way they look at life is dull. They shop at Russian stores, eat at Russian resturaunts, etc. They want nothing to do with Americans, they feel Americans are a low class people.

Now what Tootse won't tell you I will. Russians are taught from a very young age that they are superior in every way to all other people in the world. YES YES YES it's true, they feel they are better educated, have culture and class, and are far superior to Americans, or anybody else for that matter.

Osama bin Laden said that Americans are weak, that he and his people could easily take on America, after all, Osama beat the Russians after 10 years, and that the Russians are extremely tough, the Americans are weak and will be defeated even easier.

Hah, what a joke, after two months they are defeated by us, it took the Russians 10 years and they couldn't defeat Afghanistan, but America can do it in two months, so much for us weak Americans.

No, let it be known right here right now, America is the best country in the world, and the Russians would never have stood a chance against us, they are the ones who are weak, not us.

And I really don't care what anybody thinks about me or what I have to say, I have studied the Russians now for 6 months, I don't like what I find, not even a little bit.

Sorry but,

No more RW

P.S. Just my opinion

[LP]

... in response to LP, how you doin, whatz up, long time no..., posted by No more RW on Nov 24, 2001

..Come on now, the current situation in Afghanistan is quite different. The Russians were fighting a much larger force who felt the Russians were invaders.

The US is fighting a much smaller segment of the poulation with the help of a much larger one who feel they are getting their country back from an oppressive regiem.

You're just jerking us around ain't cha? :-)

[RW]

... in response to LP, how you doin, whatz up, long time no..., posted by No more RW on Nov 24, 2001

Interesting to read about superior Russians after your post about USA being a World Empire. Wonder who is more brainwashed about being superior....

As for teaching your wife.... If that's the situation why did you choose a woman who can not drive, prefer to hang around with sceptical immigrants and have no desire to work? Why did not you go after woman with good English, higher education level, driving and social skills? Because you could not or because YOU wanted to feel superior, but turned out that the task was too big for you?

As any society Russian community in USA has its own different levels. I don't claim to be an expert on it, but I have seen many of it - meetings at the galleries with art exhibitions, business roundtables, clubs for people over 40s, etc, etc.... Everybody picks their own niche. Yes, your comments are true about some people here. I came accross it many times. I also came accross many Americans whose life views and ideas I can not accept... Do you think Jerry Springer show reflects modern American empire??? I don't think so. I met many wonderful people here and thoroughly enjoy my life in this country. It is not about contry being superior, it is just about people taking responsibility for their lives and actions.... Sounds like both of you (you and your RW) have failed it.

I just hoped you will learn a good lesson out of it instead of sreaming "NO MORE RW"

Good luck to you,

Russian Wife

[No more RW]

... in response to superior russians, posted by RW on Nov 24, 2001

Privet RW,

"Interesting to read about superior Russians after your post about USA being a World Empire. Wonder who is more brainwashed about being superior....

You sound like such a nice and intelligent RW, and I'm sure your pretty too, but I have this sneaky suspicion that you would be just like the other RW I have met. Oh of course you would be nice to my face, but then you would make the critical error of speaking to my wife about Americans,...(not me of course) but Americans. Similiar to the RW who we met at the INS. Oh, very pretty girl, very pleasent to me, but in thr Restroom with my wife she tells her, "I would never marry an American", very politely of course. To which my wife was too stunned to reply. But about us Americans being superior, are we not? Of course we are. There are only two ways in which to rule the world, either through war or bribary. We can do either, but we choose bribary most often, bribary works. But when bribary won't work, we use our military, and nobody in the world could stand up against our military, nobody could even come remotely close, if you think so, then you have no idea just how powerfull we are. It would be like comparing the USA in 1921 against the USA of 1961, there is no comparison, one side will certainly be destroyed.

"As for teaching your wife.... If that's the situation why did you choose a woman who can not drive, prefer to hang around with sceptical immigrants and have no desire to work? "

She doesn't hang out with them, they live next door. It's all my fault, I chose the place because they live next door, boy I'm stupid. But they do work, or so I'm told anyway, who knows. All I know is how they think via my wife.

"Why did not you go after woman with good English, higher education level, driving and social skills? Because you could not or because YOU wanted to feel superior, but turned out that the task was too big for you?"

She has a higher education, and she speaks excellent english too, her social skills are very good, she just can't drive or swim, and teaching her to drive is proving a bigger challenge that I thought it would be, but then again she has come a long way, she is almost ready now, it's just that I'm really tired, I'm unfortunately having to work 7 days a weeks right now, and it's taking it's toll on me, woke up in a bad mood this morning I guess.

"Everybody picks their own niche. Yes, your comments are true about some people here. I came accross it many times"

How could it only be true of some if you came accross it many times?

"Do you think Jerry Springer show reflects modern American empire??? "

Well unfortunately he does. As with any Empire you have an abundance of everything, both good and bad. He is our bad, that's all. I despise him, but as you know many love him.

"I met many wonderful people here and thoroughly enjoy my life in this country"

For that I am very pleased to hear, thank you.

"I just hoped you will learn a good lesson out of it instead of sreaming "NO MORE RW" "

Well,....actually were still together, depends whether the house is clean when I get home......  ;-) Just Kidding.

Ok, I'll change my name.

[RW]

... in response to Re: superior russians, posted by No more RW on Nov 24, 2001

"I would never marry an American" :0)
First of all, there is a saying in Russia "never say never"... and second, I already did

Anyway, my only comment is that it is not "Russian" or "American" you are getting married to, but a man or woman.  I think anybody who picks a future mate ONLY because he/she is "Russian" or "American" is setting himself/herself for a BIG future disappointment.
Enough said...

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: superior russians, posted by RW on Nov 24, 2001

....well said. (lol..See? We do agree on some things. :-)

I'll tell you something else. Very few things make me *really* ashamed of Americans, the Jerry Springer Show is one of them.

[DE]

... in response to Bravo...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2001

Whinning cry babies because its too difficult to teach their wife to swim or drive or......whatever and I woke up on the wrong side of the bed so I gues I'll just go spill my "woe is me" and how I've been scammed by my non-conforming Russian slave.  Yeah, those aspects of Americans really, really make you ashamed to be even associated with American men, especially in public around other Ukrainian/Russian women (like on this board)!

[No more RW]

... in response to And...., posted by DE on Nov 24, 2001

"Yeah, those aspects of Americans really, really make you ashamed to be even associated with American men, especially in public around other Ukrainian/Russian women (like on this board)! "

When I read this I had to laugh. I guess now I'm a veteran at this and remember saying these newbie words at one time too.  ............You go boy.