... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

If you move to another country you should still consider leaving assets in the United States.  You would still pay taxes on your US income but since a lot of other countries have currency fluctuation problems, (like Russia, Ukraine and Brazil), it is safer to leave your money and invest in a stable place like the US.  

You're probably forgetting that a lot of Russian pensioners had their savings wiped out by hyperinflation after the split up of the FSU.  If you take your life savings over there and put in a Ukrainian bank, that could happen to your life savings.  The banking systems over there have stability problems too.  Some foreign banks offer dollar denominated accounts but in Ukraine?  

I have another philosophy too, go where the money is made (unless it's California).  That applies within the US or worldwide.  Of course, some US companies offer really sweet expatriot deals.  I know some guys that got over 100K, plus apartment, per diem expenses, plus cheap maid service.  Not many deals like that are around any more.  Some people do like to retire in other countries and live like a king for a lot less money.

Health care is another issue.  FSU doctors are not as well trained.  Health care in Europe may be cheap or free but it's not as good as what we have in any country over there that I've read about.  Basic care is all you get.  I was very sick earlier in the year an I really appreciated the care I got but I hated the price I had to pay.  

... in response to Sounds good to me., posted by jj on Oct 24, 2001

jj do you think there would be a demand for computer programmers in kiev or ukraine and if so what type of pay could these guys expect?

... in response to "Offshore Programming" . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 24, 2001

The skill base in Ulraine is excellent.  The level of eductaion is bery high they just lack a fall understanding of the project and business skills.  I sincereel believe that the quaility of work in Russia/Ukraine is fara far better then that comming out of India.  Indisa has one advantage in that they "can speak English".  I have tried to discuss the option of outsourcing to Russia/Ukraine and whilst there is a high recognition of the skills there is a significant distrust. Most of the best hackers come from FSU.  A good project management team would need to keep on top of the techincal development/code and put in place security reviews to establish and maintain confidence.

Putting this aside apaty from the economics I personally would very much like to live in Ukraine doe a spell.  I am a realist and not blind to the facts and difficties facing these countries.  I think there is potential and if the economic hole is not too deep much potential.  Many good code cutters are being "brain drained" but there are many also committed to staying for various reasons.  

Does anyone know of any major committements to out sourcing development to FSU?

jj

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

that terrorists would use smallpox as a weapon against us.  This "might" kill 500 Americans, but WOULD kill 500 million third world people quickly.  Of course, the terrorists would state that "it is the will of Allah!".

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

This thought (moving to Ukraine) has crossed my mind recently, too. I am greatly concerned that the U.S. may be attacked with smallpox and perhaps other biological weapons which are worse. The U.S. government is ordering 300 million doses of small pox vaccine (Tommy Thompson, Sec. of Health and Human Services, reported last week in the N.Y. Times). We are all going to be vaccinated, but we are extremely vulnerable right now. A childhood vaccine is only effective for ten years. Virtually no one in the U.S. has been vaccinated for smallpox since 1972. It will take a year or two for the 300 million doses to be ready. I don't know if you have read about smallpox, but it kills 30 to 50 percent of those infected, spreads like wildfire and horribly disfigures the survivors. It once killed a third of Europe's population.

I wonder if Ukraine would be safer for the two of us? I wonder if Ukrainian citizens are vaccinated for smallpox. I doubt it. I don't know if any place would be safe.

Face it, we are being attacked right now-- it's biological warfare directed at Western Civilization. Now it is anthrax bacteria, tomorrow it may be smallpox or ebola [all, and more, developed by the Russians (mainly-- also Iraqis, etc.)] in their biological weapons program).

I wonder what people's thoughts are...

... in response to Re: moving to ukraine/biological warfare, posted by Scaught on Oct 23, 2001

I believe it is people that think like that, that makes the terrorists believe that they are succeeding in their objective.  This country is full of weak and gutless cowards that make it ripe for terrorism!  Are you afraid to give your life in sacrafice for the freedoms that your forefathers gave their lives for?  Yeah, lets all be a bunch of fair weather Americans and run with our tails between our legs at the first sign that POSSIBLY WE MAY HAVE TO make a SACRAFICE (such as our lives) for the freedoms we have enjoyed for so many years!  If anyone believes that this country isn't worth dying for, than maybe they shouldn't be here?

Sure....its okay as long as its someone else's son that sacrafice's his life half way around the planet so we can enjoy our comfortable lives.  But as soon as OUR life could be threatened, yeah, bail on America and let the terrorists believe that this country is full of cowards.  Anyone thinking of abandoning America in her time of need should be hung for treason!  Maybe some people have forgot what it is to have the PRIVILAGE to be a citizen of the US and what YOUR duty is (yes, even as a civilian) to protect and defend this country and our way of life!  Yeah, I know, its always somebody else's responsibility, not ours personally.  Everybody in this country should be jumping on planes booking them to capacity to send a clear message, you may kill ME, but you will not kill what I stand for!  I've taken several flights since the attacks, and I'm now planning my next Ukraine trip.  At the end of each flight, I've thanked the crews for their devotion and courage to send a clear message that we will not be terrorized!

And finally, what the heck is this idea about running to Ukraine?  What, you think that IF they could defeat America with bio-terrorism, that they are just going to stop there?  I got news for you buddy, Ukraine is not an Islamic country!  How long do you think it will be before your wife would have to start wearing a veil?  Do you think for one second that if they could defeat America (the ONLY super power left) that they will just shut down their terrorist activities and leave the rest of the western world and what we stand for alone?  Get real, yeah, maybe Ukraine isn't in the top ten of targets, but do you really think Ukrainian women want the life of a radical Islamic lifestyle?  Their whole gig is not just the fact that they hate the US, they believe that radical fundalmental Islamic life as they interpret it to be should be world wide (that includes Ukraine).  Maybe you should think about moving to Iran or Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or some other Islamic country if you want to save your own skin?  COWARD is all I have to say!

Just my 2 cents since you asked.

... in response to Personally...., posted by DE on Oct 23, 2001

...Spare us the flag waving. You have to define "this country" and "way of life" first. The two are closely linked to our government, and for *sure* aren't worth dying for. The "way of life" you're sputtering about died long ago for all but the fat cats in Washington. The vast majority of us
struggle daily and don't have very much to show for it.

I agree this country is full of weak and gutless cowards.
Weak and gutless enough to permit the continual raping of our civil liberties by our own leaders which, thanks to the most massive intelligence and law enforcement failure since Pearl Harbor, is now being accelerated at an even greater pace.

Had our "leaders" remained in control of this nation's borders, had they been doing they're jobs and paying attention to the people who elected them instead of special interests, none of this would have happened. America is going down the toilet in so many ways, one can't even keep up with it, and while the despicable folks we "elect" are the original cause, it's we who allow them to get away with it that shoulder the blame today.

The end result of our response to Bin Laden will only be a new generation of terrorists as it will elevate him higher among the "faithful". (He was basicily a fanatic with limited followers until Clinton attacked him a few years back.)That new generation of terrorists may well include Americans like Tim McVeigh, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the current anthrax situation is domestic in nature.

After all, it's what a terrorist really wants, to get the government of the country attacked to anger it's own people enough to cause domestic problems. It's *exactly* the same thing we are hoping the Afghan people will do at present.

The government's not an evil living breathing entity, it's people. Sure, I'm appalled that the worker bees are the ones who die while the slime in power continue to screw us, but thats *our* fault. So stop whining at the hapless fools among us, for you seem as misguided as they.

Spare us the simplistic patriotic rhetoric. If you had any more guts than the rest of them, you would be directing your anger at the scum in Washington who have ruined this country and made it far from worth dying for. Look at how they scattered like rats and shut the government down last week instead of showing some fortitude by staying at the helm. This is the "country" and "way of life", you're so proud of? Makes me wanna puke.

There is a very thin line between terrorists and patriots.
I don't approve of McVeigh's methods, but I certainly understand his motivations. Me thinks you need to brush up on US history. Many "innocents" died at the hands of our "founding fathers", who would be appalled at what this country has become.

It's people with these narrow mindsets who, like our leaders, believe all such attacks are by "nuts", instead of looking deeper for the real root causes.

But no, like most Americans, they're *way* to arrogant for that. They believe everything that we do in the world to make people hate us so much as to do such extreme things, is correct, justified and proper. Some even believe it's "God's will" for the USA to run the world, these people are the *real* nuts.

I fly almost daily. In fact, I'm the one driving. It's plenty safe, so I suggest you direct your "bravery" toward making a real change here at home, where the true problems lie, instead of bashing those intelligent enough to avoid being political automatons.