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I notice the thread has been removed.I am not trying to revive the dispute and it seems the main players here heve said what they wanted to say.
But I wanted to give my opinion of what a scammer is and comment a little on this situation,probably knowing the entire list of persons envolved as well as anybody.
To me a  scammer is a person who does a huge disception for a significant benefit.It seems the only person out significant money here was the French guy who it seems just jumped right in and bought a bunch of presents,perhaps thinking there would be future benefits.
Without any other evidence other than her telling him it was her birthday we can't presume that is a scam.I immagine a few winks and some hand holding or maybe a kiss on the cheek is all he got out of it,other than perhaps a little lesson in latina behavior.
The main issue here I think is lying or mislesding people about the possibility of a relationship in one case and trying to hold on to one in another case.This is pretty standard behavior here for a girl who is trying to keep her options open.Yes it is dishonest,you might call it player behavior,but in my opinion does not rise to the level of scammer.And in my opinion to post the name and agency imformation of a girl she should not only be a scammer but a big scammer.
BUT,there is no dictionary of defineitions here and different people have different ideas about it.
In this case I think the girl in question is trying to keep her options open while still trying to hang on to what is probably the best relationship she has so far had with a man.Jack has told her loud and clear if you are looking for a sugar daddy it is not me.Like me he has made his mistakes in the past but his eyes are wide open now as he  asses the situation.And even though they had an understanding of not dating others I don't know if that is still the understanding with him in the states.
I think this girl wants it all ,which includes a sugar daddy and perhaps a green card.Jack has told her no way for either.So she is hanging on to him while shopping,and along comes this french guy seriously in need of a latina lesson,which she provides for his education and her benefit.
Not a very unusual story here.And even though the relationship with Jack was agreed to be exclusive it was not really novia or planning marriage.IF you have a girl who has agreed to marry you and perhaps you are sending her money from the states and she is still playing around that might approach being called a scammer.
SO,everybody is a little wiser here. And even if we disagree with the post and the opinion really jumping on BK caused a reaction and kind of a pissing contest that Hoda decided should not remain on the site.Thats probably good,to remove the girls nameas  well as the long negative thread.
Life IS interesting here in CALI.And its a small world for a city of over 2 million if you travel in the gringo circles.You do something in the morning and everybody knows by evening.And  the female imformmation network is alot better than ours.

Pete

... in response to My take on the scammer discussion, posted by Pete E on Mar 20, 2005

Thank you, Pete. I was following that soap opera from the start, and it played out almost exactaly like I thought it would (only thing I wasn't sure about was what, if anything, Jack had promissed her)....but since he promissed her NOTHING, and was quite up front about it, he's not guilty of leading her on and by the same token, she's free to date (or NOT) other guys. French guy has no one to blame but his own 'needing a latina lesson', as you so aptly put it....and he hasn't complained (at least not that I'm aware of) so he probably figures it was worth the price of the ticket.

Hopefully, peace reigns once again here in Rainbow Valley.

... in response to Re: My take on the scammer discussion, posted by Michael B on Mar 20, 2005

First of all, a belated St. Patrick’s day to all. (I was wondering why all of my students were wearing green, hah hah)

This thing has bothered me since I saw this whole fiasco start up and I debated with myself as to if I should say anything.

Well, personally I don't get it.  I was one of the posters that actually egged the guy to post the girls name or id.  

Personally I think it’s a good idea.  In my opinion, aside from information about the visa process, the second most valuable information is that which relates to possible errors a man can make (i.e., less than honest women, bad agencies etc.)

The whole thing with the "scammer" tread seems to be more personal between some posters and had nothing to do with the apparent dishonesty of the woman.

I find it hard to understand why hardly anyone raised a peep when someone posted photos of several girls laid up in the bed half naked for what they must have thought was an intimate photo moment with their apparent lover(evidently that was OK). However, when this guy post the id of a lady (in which the majority of us have agreed was less than honest), it’s a really big issue from everyone including the moderator.  Are you kidding me?

Its like WE DON'T have a problem with a woman being shown in what she thinks is a private photo session with her lover, but when we talk about identifying someone that is doing something that is obviously less than honest  every one raises hell. .... "Bow Wow? Scooby Doo, where are you?

Like I said it must be personal and something I'm missing.  

As for as the term scammer.  The thing is this (IMHO), we don't know who is a scammer unless we discover a pattern of behavior with a lady (although technically a person can be considered a scammer after having taken advantage of just one person).  We (here on PL) don't have a way to make this discovery without making things public. Hence, what are we to do?   I understand Hodas point and others points as well, but it has always puzzled me as to why there are so many men on this board that want to protect these women from identification while at the same time admit that there are many so women out there doing dishonest things.  I just don't get it and I can't waste time trying to figure it out.  

Anyway, like someone said, maybe we will return to peace again.  

... in response to I gotta say this., posted by Onephd on Mar 21, 2005

First, I don’t know what specifically you are referring to by photos of half-naked women and I think you are only clouding the discussion. This is not about photos of naked women but about publicly impugning another’s reputation by accusing her of a crime. I think you should stick to the subject and save the naked-women photos for another separate discussion.

I think perhaps you and a few others fail to understand the power of this medium and the possible consequences of making public accusations about an individual on a public forum like this. Do you have any idea at all how many people around the world read this forum? A lady’s reputation could suffer irreparable harm based on one individual’s accusations.

In the recent thread that caused all the controversy, another member made a post with a lady’s complete name calling her a “scammer” in the subject line. Hell, the guy doesn’t even know what the word means! Nobody “scammed” the guy and he had no factual basis for his accusations. But based on his own ignorance and second-hand gossip, someone’s reputation was damaged in front of millions of readers around the world. Is that fair? Hell no!

Would you be happy if someone made public accusations about you without any evidence to back it up? Of course not! So why do you find it so difficult to understandable why some folks find it in bad taste to make public accusations about another on this forum? I think the answer is possibly because you simply don’t give a crap what happens to someone else as long as it isn’t happening to you. Is that against the rules? No, but is shows a lack of class IMHO.

The people who spoke up against this sort of public accusation without the possibility of the accused being able to face her accuser, or to even know his real identity, was done in the interest of fairness. Now is that so hard for you to understand?

Ray

... in response to Bow-Wow!, posted by Ray on Mar 22, 2005

[This message has been edited by doombug]

"A lady’s reputation could suffer irreparable harm based on one individual’s accusations."

...assuming she had a good reputation to start with.  After all, it wasn't just one poster who'd fealt uneasy about this innocent little dove.

In fact, I'd wager that half the stuff she posted in her "infamous" profile was bogus.  Though, this is hardly uncommon.

I think a lot of the gringos who are coming down excessively hard on this guy are--in a word--whipped.  See a "pretty" Latina, and suddenly your instinct to run to her defense surfaces.    

The original poster never claimed she committed murder; never said she was a narco trafficker; nor a member of FARC.  

But, what if she were any of those?  Or, what if "she" was in fact a transvestite, or someone you'd discovered to have venereal disease, would you still pummel the messenger?  Or, just stay hush, so as to avoid the Gloria Allred paralegals here on the board.

Besides, why are you getting your kicks out of pummelling a member of the Latin board anyways?

And, "...millions of readers around the world."  That one stumped me.  So, a sizable percentage of the home computers around the world were tuned into little ol' PL when that horrific "scammer" word was uttered, right?

Lighten' up, officer.  Though it's "custom" not to "out" people, don't lead everyone here to believe that one shoud NEVER do so.

Otherwise, you might be leading lambs to slaughter.

Peace out!

... in response to Re: Bow-Wow!, posted by doombug on Mar 22, 2005

First, I don’t need your permission to participate on this forum so save silly ‘what are you doing here?’ nonsense and stick to the point.

Did I say that people here should “NEVER” out someone? Go back and read my post again. If there had been any reasonable evidence that this or any other lady was running a real scam and was cheating guys out of their money, or was involved in serious criminal activity, then there might be justification to “out” her. But you better have some reasonable evidence to back it up before you start making accusations.

Again, my problem with the “scammer” attack was that it was based on hearsay and gossip with NO evidence that the lady was running any scams or cheating anyone. If you go back and read the original reference to her, you will see that an unidentified third party had told a story about some French guy spending some money for gifts or whatever. Who is this French guy and what does he have to say about it? Was he “scammed” out of his money? We simply don’t know! I think it is important to note that the original poster who related this “story” also said that he dated the “suspect” and she DID NOT ask him for a penny! So why do you defend the attacks on her? What crime did she commit? Do you get your kicks pummeling a woman who isn’t here to defend herself? Trashing a lady based on some girly gossip is not very manly IMHO.

Ray

... in response to Bow-Wow!, posted by Ray on Mar 22, 2005

See post titled "Fuzzy and Ray" where I try to address both of your posts.

Again no harm intended and none taken.

... in response to I gotta say this., posted by Onephd on Mar 21, 2005

I think you will find that there was men here that did object to those photos
being posted. I myself did not find anything wrong with them only because
when I was in Barranquilla all the woman there dressed that way. When I was
in Santa Marta once again the woman were dressed very nice but I kept my
eyes on my wife since I felt she was the most beautiful woman on the beach.

 If you go back and read alot of the old post here there has been alot of men
that went to Colombia and done alot of things that people here on this forum
did not accept.

 We have had men here go down to Cali and got their ass handed to them.
What happened ? they did not think with the brain and used the little head
instead. I do not see how it will help any man here posting a woman id here.
How is that going to help anyone? It will not but men that post their stories
here what happened to them good or bad will help. I read alot of men's
stories here before I went to Colombia. I did not see no woman ID as
scammers just stories. They helped me out alot, I found the woman of my
dreams, but it was funny I did meet woman there that were after the pesos
and I knew only because of alot of the stories posted here.

 It is not going to help anyone here to post one woman's ID stating she is a
scammer. I knew a man that went to Colombia met a woman, it did not work
out not by a long ways. The man did everything he could to screw the woman
over I mean everything. To be honest with everyone the guy was a old balding
overweight man that I was very surprised any woman would want to meet
him. The moral there is always two sides to a story and when only one person
posts his side then we never find out to whole story.

... in response to Re: I gotta say this., posted by Fuzzyone on Mar 21, 2005

OK.. I confused you slightly but not intentionally.  Sorry.

When I am referring to mens attitude about half naked photos I'm NOT talking about women dressed in bathing suits or half shirts on the beach.. . I understand the women in BQ and Cart. and Cali dress differently from those in Bogota.  

I'm talking about men that post photos of girl after girl in their hotel room, some half naked, in their underwear.  I intentionally didn't and will not post the posters name as he is not the subject of the post.  I think maybe one person raised an issue about the guy posting those photos back then.  (Those who follow the board know what I'm talking about)  

I understand everything you and RaY said about reputation. I agree that this is no light topic. But I also feel that posting girl after girl in very intimate photos in your hotel room is also damaging to a girls reputation. These ladies apparently have done nothing to warrant their photos being displayed all throughout cyber space. I don't have a problem with guys that post photos of their ladies and trips.  Those everyone appreciates and it makes this thing we chase real.  I'm talking about the guys that just want to somehow show off or have us believe this is who they are nailing. Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but it sure does tarnish the women repuatation in the process.

No one talking about blinding posting information. I think I explained how that can be done tactfully and carefully. Like I also said, I don't expect things to change here as this topic was brought up about a year or so ago.  I just wanted to understand how one form of behavior was acceptable and the other apprehensible.  

As for the guy calling Gina a scammer in the title.  Even he has admitted that that was not the best choice of words.  If you read the entire tread beore it was deleted, I had a post titled "Scammer Vs just not a good catch" where I said that she was probably better labeled as not a good catch and the guy that made the original post agreed that in reality that’s all  he was trying to do and say.  So yes his choice of words was not correct, but the really crazy part is no one here was able to get off that part and on to the real issue which was the girl’s behavior. No one got past the title.  Unfortunately you can’t change your titles after they have been posted.  But anyway.

You and Ray Hoda and others don't understand how identifying women who are dishonest (scammers etc) will help them. Fine...  I can easily respect your opinion on that issue.  I just don't understand it.  O.K.  Especially when compared to the other incidents describes above.

All I will say is this as a final note is:  Do you now think that anyone here on PL that saw the post about Gina will go and schedule an appointment with her?  Do you think that a guy that doesn't schedule that appointment will actually miss out on something?  

If the answer to each part is NO, then you understand my logic and where I am coming from.

Anyway, man, let’s just agree to disagree.  Like I said, I noticed this attitude by men a while back and it resurfaced so I brought it up.   Again no harm, no foul.

... in response to Fuzzy and Ray, posted by Onephd on Mar 22, 2005

OnePhd

  I kept nailing the guy because he could not keep his story straight. I do not
have a problem with a guy here coming back from his trip posting some of
the pictures of a woman or woman that he was out with. It is a different story
to post a picture of a woman and state something that you heard from
someone else. Come on we are not in High School now most of us are in our
forties.  If the french guy posted what happened to him and stated a woman
name Gina soaked him then fine and dandy but that is what happened to him.

 I do not blame Gina wanting to move on, do you blame her? She knew she
was never going to get married to Jack so she interviewed for a man who
might be right for her. Did you not think something was funny when Nelson
would not take her off his site? All she had was a interview that was it. Do we
really know if she lied to Nelson? We do know that some guys here start to
recieve e-mail from him and CaliVip, also men who would register and start
stating how great CaliVip was. I am sorry but thee is more than meets the eye
here.

 I do understand how to I.D. a scammer not hard to do and alot of guys here
can do it too if they read some of the stories here. Posting Gina's pic and
name did nothing for no one except to say "Oh I don't want to go out with
that girl she just wants my pesos" How many woman in Cali will take your
pesos? I have heard alot of horror stories but they have done nothing but help
me in my quest. What alot of men here don't seem to understand is when you
are down in Colombia and start flashing money the woman will think you are
rich. She will take any money you offer with no strings attached.

 On you question I would take out Gina, she would not be getting any money
out of me but then she was not going to anyway before everything was
getting posted here about her.

... in response to Fuzzy and Ray, posted by Onephd on Mar 22, 2005

She should never have been identified and labeled as ANYTHING based on some stupid idle GOSSIP passed on from a third party to a member here to the forum. When you hear a story that starts out “My friend who works there told me about her”, then it’s nothing but GOSSIP!

Leave the gossip to the girls. And if you still feel that you must engage in hurtful gossip, then leave the names and personal info out of it.

Just my $.02,

Ray

... in response to Re: I gotta say this., posted by Fuzzyone on Mar 21, 2005

Fuzzyone,
I enjoyed your posts and I agree with your views as stated. However, since you are one of the few that are happily married to a latina, could you please share with us more about your own experience?  Possibly you have already done that, but I do not recall.  Could you please fill us in about your wife and her story, etc?  I feel that these positive stories help to encourage men like me who is still searching.  I am currently corresponding with a lady in Cali.  But, as everyone knows, I will have  to exercise caution when I actually meet her in person.  Right now, she seems to be very sincere.  Frankly, I wish I was there in Cali, with her, right now!  I plan to go in the near future.  Certainly this entire experience of travelling to Colombia and trying to start a relationship with these latinas is a major departure from "the norm".  But, I am also thankful to now have options that a couple of years or so ago I did not even think existed!  Anyway, I would like to know more about your situation.

                            OkieMan

... in response to I gotta say this., posted by Onephd on Mar 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by jim c]


    In most cases women are called scammers, by disgruntled or disappointed suitors. We have, as you may have noticed, some people here who are not firing on all plugs. I have met more neurotics here than on the police force! ( I am describing no one in particular!! )

     Women who have been called scammers in the past may have used bad judgement. Often they believe that gifts come from rich genereous gringos without strings. How could they know, that some here think they can buy true love with gifts, and if the strings are broken it triggers animosity.  PT Barnham "You can't cheat an honest man"

   There is a word in spanish, Caballero, it means a gentleman and most of us here try to be one.  How would you like to see your novias picture and name with someone calling her a puta and con artist. All because some BOZO was disappointed.  In the real world if you call someones girl names or discuss her honesty, you could very well get your ass kicked. Here we only embarrass you for being rude,crude and basically a cry baby.  

   You are not buying a used car,you are talking about a persons reputation.  As for laying half naked on a bed it is hardly a comparison to telling someone you are sick rather than saying you don't want to go out with them.  Dishonesty sure! but it is not scamming someone out of their money.

  Wanting to marry someone who is rich is no different than wanting to marry someone who is beautiful. Wanting to marry someone who lives in the United States is not criminal or immoral. Why do you think she wants to marry your ignorant fat  neurotic a-s. You came here to take advantage of her situation, quit whining!!!  

(THIS POST IS NOT DIRECTED TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR, although ingestion by some may cause nausua, vomiting or headache. In extreme cases dry mouth and rash may occur.) Soft enough Hoda? jimc

... in response to I gotta say this., posted by Onephd on Mar 21, 2005


Onephd...How much you wanna bet, that this request goes cold, naked & unanswered?

There are scammers on both sides of the equation. After being around for several years, more often than not...the guy pointing out a "scammer" was more vindictive, than victim! As Jim C, pointed out in with his kid glove approach (lol)....that guys are their own worst enemies, most of the time! Do people deserve to be taken advantage off? HELL NO! But in this "thing of ours", it's gonna happen! Since it's dayyum near impossible to get the "accused" point of view posted here...why should the "accuser" get all the benefit of a doubt?

There is a risk, but there are rewards....peace!

... in response to All gringo scammers, please post names &..., posted by Hoda on Mar 21, 2005

Why he must have banged 200 women in the last two years he has lived in Cali.   And the boy never talked about marrying and getting them a green card.  

What a scammer that heat is!!!

... in response to I used to have dreams like that, too, posted by Michael B on Mar 22, 2005

4 or five a week X 104 weeks....

... in response to Do the math......, posted by Heat on Mar 22, 2005

still living between the legs!!!!   sorry, couldnt resist :-)

... in response to Re: Do the math......, posted by mudd on Mar 22, 2005

Living in Cali makes it easy.

... in response to Heat is a scammer.................., posted by Heat on Mar 22, 2005


Who do you think you are....Wilt Chamberlain :-)

... in response to All gringo scammers, please post names &..., posted by Hoda on Mar 21, 2005

I understand you point (as I said up above). In actuality  You just made my point crystal clear.  You are correct, absolutely no one will post Sh#T.  Despite all the horror stories that some men have as well as in some cases valid sources of confirmation of the story.

I understand why Patrick may decide he won't allow this. Its his board his rules.  I just have trouble with the fact that seemingly everyone belief that it’s a good thing.  

Your argument for guys not posting "scammers" is quite different from the responses in that tread that got deleted.  This is about something else that I can't figure out. I dont' get the logic. Maybe its just as simple as men being too embarrased to show a photo of the girl that took them to the cleaners? Maybe it's denial(we don't want latinas portrayed in the same light as Russian ladies have been).

Now Remeber...
I'm directing my posts towards the apparent opinion/idea that its ok to post photo of ladies half nude (apparent innocent women) vs. the opinion that is not ok to post photos of women that have been accurately accused of dishonesty. I'm talking and directing this post towards those who in one breathe say that there are soooooo many women out there running games on men, but in the same breathe say that it’s bad to post who they are.  Bow-Wow? Scooby Doo where are you?  

Yes, I'm 110% sure there are men that are jaded and would resort to posting possible lies about some ladies[I'm positive you are right about this and I know as I've been to SA about 10 times now.]  But really, that’s an easy fix.

For example:
Back about 4 years ago when I was doing the Russian correspondence thing, there was a agency that had a adjoining website (webpage) where men would forward the emails, agency, photo of those ladies doing dishonest things.  The website owner (operators) would determine if the story had credibility based on the evidence etc. and then post it.  Of course you just can't take a mans word for this.  There has to be some reasonable check and balance for this.  

Granted Russian women run more sophisticated scams, one to which I almost feel victim to, but I discovered that website that described the scam to a tee and even had photos aliases of the girl in question.  

Now granted Colombian women are not running very sophisticated scams.  But I often hear stories from men on this board that claim their ladies write them and ask for money for a sick relative etc.  To me this seems to be the extent of Colombian so called "scams".  None the less, they are scams.  While it may be common sense to many, having such information posted somewhere would benefit those just starting this venture.  

Now I'm not under any expectation that this board will ever adopt anything like I've seen on Russian websites. I really just venting about that mentality that I described above. It’s just so not logical or rational to me how.  Some things I'll never understand. ha ha ha.  

None the less, no offense is meant and certainty none was taken.