Print Page - My late follow up

Gee I take some time off from the forum and everywhere I turn Heat is throwing out Zingers.

Looking4Wife
"Yes, but the real question (in my newbie mind) from the Latina(s) to the visiting gringo on the "Romance Tour" should be:
A) What the heck are you doing down here so far away from home looking for romance anyway?
B) With an additional implicit/explicit question being: If you were so desirable in the USA, then why would you come down here to Latina-Land?"

Number one understand all women hate going to those "Romance tours" they find it demeaning. Quality women are unlikely to go to such functions more than once without having strong ulterior motives.

Now you are correct that most women will ask you this question. Your best answer should be based and possible edited on your real reason. Since I don’t know what this is, a safe response would be:
"I’m tired of striking out with American women and I understand Colombian women take it both ways"... I’m sorry that’s thunderbolts answer.
I’m joking thunderbolt. He has some good answers I can tell he does fine. Ok back to being serious you can say, I have a friend who has a Colombian wife or girlfriend and he has many positive things to say about her and I just recently broke up with my girlfriend and he pointed me to this website of Colombian women and I was due for a vacation and I thought why not take a visit and make some friends and if the right woman show up great if not I can always go back to banging my old girlfriend... ok skip that last part. Just play it cool with out being egotistical. There are many subtle way to hint confidence without being arrogant. You tell her your there to make friends (but your not), see new things (who cares) and if a good woman comes my way that would just be an unexpected (it better happen) bonus and you are overwhelmed by all the friendly people. She will know what “people” means, women and she will know what “friendly” means she’s got competition and she better act soon.

Slojas1
"I think of Pete, Jamie, and a gringo that I know very well living in Cali. These guys have all of the ingredients to really learn the language but they live for the American culture while living abroad and language for them never becomes a big issue, always secondary"

I am not sure what my name is doing here I made it clear I was learning Spanish. I would never recommend someone living in a foreign country not learning the language. As for living the "American culture" I do not know what you mean by this. If this is what I or others wanted why would we even voluntarily move down to Colombia and leave our captivation with the American culture? I live by my way which is influenced by my surroundings. Can you even justify such a statement that I live for the American culture with an example?

Jediknight
"...not learning your wifes language is a copout, much easier to come up with excuses and blowing it off then learning it, that is much harder."
There is no basis for your assumption that a person who chooses not to learn the language lacks the wherewithal. Individuals make cost benefit determinations of what they should do with their time and because you don’t approve doesn’t make it an excuse.

Kented

"Football, as it is called every where outside the US is the world's game. Rather that take the attitude of US superiority, (our sports are more interesting than the world's most popular sport) you should try to enjoy the sport."

While I agree with your adaptation process it doesn’t mean we become them. Who doesn’t know about soccer from living in the U.S? I played it for 3 years and assume most schools have soccer. Americans choose football over soccer because they like it better not because they don’t know the difference. People should not "try" to learn or participate in something they have no interest in just so they can fit in with your world order.

"...realize that right wing American politics is repugnant to most of the world."
Yes we certainly don’t want to offend ingrate countries like France who would be speaking German two times over without American political actions. Like it or not, and it appears that you don’t like it, America is the only country in the world that can or will take on evil nations. I like the fact that we as a nation or different. I could care less that the socialist appeasers in Europe and elsewhere object to our values. When you are strong there will always be those that will want to take you down including those from within.
While I do not agree with much of U.S interferences in to other countries affairs including our involvement in Colombia, I do know that it was the strength from the right that has made this a much freer world now than it would have been otherwise.

jediknight
"jamie, your attempt to respond to my statments with completely weak and illogical responses only shows me that you need to rethink your arguments. your defense is based on hypotheticals, "what if's" and all or nothing situations."

I am not sure how much you know about logic but it is a valid method to use "what if" scenarios to determine how consistent one is with their opinions. Since you declined to respond to all my questions I can only assume your answers to the questions you selected to ignore would be inconsistent or indicative of how far out your definition of family "respect" and mutual exchange was.
By the way those "what if" situations are very real.

"I don't expect you to agree with me, the purpose of my post was to give you something to think about, another point of view but if you are going to address every one of my points you need to try harder because I found your ideas and way of thinking...shall we say... humorous."

I have debated this issue before and your reasons are no differ from what I have heard. As for my ideas being "humorous" you will have to be more specific. I responded to every one of your points while you only selectively responded to mine. Since you did not understand one of Mudd’s counters to your view, as you so noted, maybe the same situation applies here. If you only understand tidbits of what I am saying maybe that would explain your humorous interpretation. The true humorous aspects were the application of your stance in various situations but you missed this.

"your statement should really be..most men that embark on this quest to latin america to find a wife learn at least some spanish...unless you've been living on another planet most men do not learn spanish or any other language,this is also referred to as the ugly american."

We are talking about men who engage and marry Latin women. Is this not the group we are talking about? And most of these men do learn some Spanish. I am basing this on my first hand experience with such clients. I believe my association with such men would exceed such associations you would have. If this is not the case please tell me how my world of knowledge with many more Latin women and American men relationships than you would have is not real? I am not talking about American men in general who visit Colombia because they are not the topic. As for your definition of an "ugly American" I find it insulting for you to label good men who chose not to learn Spanish for whatever personal reasons they may have as "ugly." I find such derogatory statements to be ugly. You want to impose your sensitivity to cultural correctness and family respect on to other that have a different perspective and priority. I can easily say good to you and others that choose to learn Spanish, because as I indicated in my conclusion before this it is a matter for the couple to decide. You in turn like to label those who go a different route as "lazy", "ugly" and "disrespectful." I have dated many Latin women and not one of them has ever encouraged, pressed or considered this a matter of concern. What makes you think the Latin family is more important to Latin’s than it is to Americans and there families? Are you trying to say you consider your family as less significant than what the average Latin woman would considers of her family? Do you even know why family in Latin American carries the value we often hear about?

"these are the guys that feel that english is the only language they will ever need and refuse to learn another, its in our culture, we don't want to learn another language unlike most other countries that have citizens that speak various languages. when i was in europe I was embarrassed by the americans that were traveling and expected everyone to speak english, and they had an attitude about it! they did not make any effort to communicate in the native language, it was appalling. so your view, sadly is typical."

Other countries teach English because they want to be able to do business with us or go to our schools not because of any cultural friendship exchange. I can’t speak of the attitudes you have run into I would not have any such expectations that hte host country should speak English. But the idea that we should learn the language in order "to communicate in the native language" of countries that we visit is silly. Since you don’t see how humorous this is I can see why my dose of reality to you would seem funny. Since 90% of Americans never leave the country why should they learn other languages? Just because someone chooses to learn English does not mean we in return should learn others languages. Again this is a matter for the individual to decide, but you continue to lump Americans as being less worthy than those that or more multilingual. I have never known of one situation where a married couple has broken up because the man did not learn Spanish. Do you think this could be the cause of any marriage breakup? Do you think this could be the cure for any marriage difficulties speaking Spanish? I would think your answers would be no, again showing the unimportance of the matter.

From Jamie earlier: "This would be true if the context were the same. If the situation was reversed yes the man should learn Spanish. But the situation is not the same so your equal application of giving what you would also be expecting does not logically apply."
Response Form jediknight: what "context" are you talking about? that if you are living in colombia you should learn spanish? of course, you would be a fool not to but I would bet anything that if you are living in colombia and learning spanish that at some point you would also want your wife to learn english, even while living in colombia."

Yes that is the context I am referring too. You said: "if you expect your wife to learn english, you should be able to learn spanish," I am telling you this is not necessary and depends on the context. You are wrong to think that if the situation was reversed that I would want my wife to learn English. That would be up to her I would be neutral on the mater. You have to understand that context is everything and you just can’t throw out universal statements that would apply in all matters.

From Jamie earlisr: "If one needs to respect her family by learning their language would that not apply to the wives family they should learn English to show equal respect to you?"
Reply from jediknight
"you're stretching here. no one ever said that your family or her family needs to learn the others language. we are dealing here with you and your wife. its very simple, your wife learns english to be able to communicate to your family and likewise you should learn spanish to be able to communicate to hers, it's so simple,why the resistance?"

Well it is my understanding that if you show respect to someone they in return should show equal respect to you. My example was not the stretch, what is "stretching" is your use of the word "respect." I am simply taking your words and applying them to different situations to demonstrate that this has nothing to do with respect and by applying your reasons in a universal matter is humorous and ultimately convoluted.

"the rest of that paragraph is all "what ifs" that do not make any sense because most situations are simple and not complicated like you're trying to make them seem. it's very simple.... she is colombian(latina), we are north american(most of us are), she speaks spanish we speak english. this scenario is the most common, any variation from this, although possible, is not the norm, so lets stick to the common scenarios and not hypotheticals."

I am sorry to say life is complicated. I am just applying your belief to a variety of situations to show you how ridiculous this gets by making dictates of what other people should or shouldn’t do in their personal lives.

From Jamie: "The same way you communicated with your wife when you first met, through a translator who in this case would now be your wife"
Reply from jediknight: “in the beginning of your relationship that is reasonable, but how long do you plan on using your wife as an interpreter? at some point you expect your wife to speak to your family without your help, you should be able to do the same. this is common sense.”
Life is not an exact equal exchange. The primary purpose of learning English is for the wife to be able to communicate with her husband and adapt to her new country. She will be using English during the majority of her stay in the States. It is not common sense to expect the man to learn Spanish to occasionally speak a few hours a year with her family. You continue to weigh the differences as equal and they are not.

From Jamie earlier: "This is nothing new it happens all the time"
Reply from jediknight: “no, this doesn't happen all the time. i have lived in the colombian community of jackson heights ny and will tell you that many latinas do not learn english within 2 years or even worse within 10 years. many have the same attitude as you do..why bother if i don't have to.”

I am not sure if English is your first language but the phrase “it happens all the time” does not mean it literally happens all the time it means this is nothing new or unusual.

From Jamie earlier: "Do you think dance is some type of unique imbedded heritage gene in Colombians?"
Reply from jediknight: “first, the importance placed on dancing is not in the genes, its in the culture.”

Of course this is just an exaggeration it is obviously not innate.

“more importance is placed on being able to dance in latin america than here. this is why latin men can dance at an early age and look great doing it while the guys here can't and when they do they look like they have 2 left feet.”

I have not seen any differences in the interest level of American women or Latin American women when it comes to dancing and this is one of my passions. As for the men, Latin American men do appear to have more of an interest but I am not sure to what extent. This may be just a stereotype. I have not seen any difference in Latin’s being able to “feel” (hear the beat) any more so than Americans. I personally think American women are much better dancers than Latin American women because they have more opportunities to formally learn and, more opportunities to be taught a variety of styles by a variety of teachers and go to a variety of places. But Latin American women have better asses so they win on my scorecard:)

From Jamie earlier: "There is plenty of dancing and of a greater variety in the States."
Reply from jediknight: “so i guess that this is the reason why so many men here can't dance. in this country, when people say, "lets go out", dancing is at the bottom of the list.”

I would agree that it would be on the bottom of the list for most older men but that does not change the fact that you have a greater variety and more places to dance here in the States than you would in all of South America. American men choosing not to dance has nothing to do with availability. I see no shortage of young male dancers in American dance clubs.

From Jamie earliser: "Since there are fewer options for entertainment in Colombia dancing takes up a greater proportion of such time"
Reply from jediknight: fewer options? this boarders on racist, classist. tell me, what forms of entertainment do colombians not have? lets see, i've been to cartagena,barranquilla,santa marta, bogota, bucaramanga and not only do they dance but they also have movie theaters, amusment parks, beaches, bowling alleys, hangliding, horseback riding, billard halls, tejo,swimming pools, museums, sports, concerts, television, radio, dvd players, computers, just to name a few.
I am boarding on racist because you don’t like facts. If I were to say that the people in Fort Smith, Arkansas have less options for entertainment than people in Los Angeles which is the case using your faulty logic I would be a racist against people from Arkansas. What kind of schooling gives you such a conclusion? Let me explain the obvious to you. Number one Colombians have a lot less money than Americans to spend on entertainment. Americans have more discretionary income than Colombians. So if one has less money, and in Colombia’s case significantly less money, would that not provide “fewer options for entertainment?” But in your eyes this does not create fewer options for Colombians. If any one is a "classiest" (and this is coming from someone who calls himself Jedi Knight. Was "Man of the people" taken that you had to revert to the upper class, elite designation, "knight"?) it is you for not realizing this is the case. Are you just hanging out with the well off to say something so inane? About 3 percent of Colombians own computers and you think this creates the same outlet options as one would have in America? While Colombia has all you have mentioned they have a lot less of them per person than they do in the States which means they have less options. Yes Colombia does have bowling alleys but there is no bowling alley in Barranquilla. Do you know of a city in the States with over a million people with no bowling alley? If you can’t see something so tangible as this I don’t know how you are going to learn and understand more complicated matters. How could you travel to so many cities in Colombia and not see the lack of options available to them?

From Jamie earlier: "If the man was into square dancing does that mean the woman would be required to learn square dancing? Do you have to share the exact passions your spouse does? It appears so from your standpoint."
Reply from jediknight: “if a guys LOVES to do this, YES, i think that she should try to learn and share his passion, maybe she might even like it. if she absolutly hates it then at least she gave it a shot.part of being married is learning from your spouse things that you might not have experienced, whether its dance, food, music, ideas, ways of thinking, behaving. open your mind to new things.”

You will learn that is better to find someone who shares your passions than it is to try to find someone to adopt your passions. I agree people should try new things but I am not one to hold judgment on those that chose not to do so as you appear to be so inclined to do.

From Jamie earlier: "My wife does not care to Salsa dance. So I don’t push her to learn I simply find others that do and spend such time with them."
Reply from jediknight: “latin dancing is NOT just salsa. does your wife dance at all? she would be an exception in colombia if she didn't. there are other forms of dance like merengue, bachata, champeta and cumbia just to name a few. then there's the stuff you find here like reggueton, trans, techno, not every colombiana likes to dance salsa, but they do like to dance to other latin rythms or styles, so I don't know what your point is.my point is that most latinas like to dance,period. therefore find out what she likes and learn to do it.”

My wife like most young Colombian women prefers to dance to the same music most young Americans like to dance to and that is modern Western music. The traditional Latin flavored music clubs have much fewer and older attendees than the modern dance clubs do. Again I am not sure where your travels are taking you for you not to know this. My point is for you not to insult people that don’t follow your own outline of how a relationship should be conducted.

“jamie, i respect your difference in opinion but clearly do not agree”
I am not seeking an agreement on the direction that you chose. It is up to others to determine what is best for them. My previously stated conclusion was “This is a decision to be made by the man and the woman and the right and wrong of this answer can only be judged by them not by those that negatively label the man for not doing what they think he should be doing.”
You appear not to agree with this which is sad. What I wanted to demonstrate was the basis for your convictions and let others determine the validity in there on case. I do appreciate your follow up but when you throw out the race card on an issue that has nothing to do with race because you believe Colombians have the same options that Americans have with their discretionary time you lose a lot of credibility even to those who have never been to Colombia and know better. If you really respected such a difference in opinion, as you say, then you would not be insulting those that differed, now would you?

Jamie
Engage the Exotic - Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

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GoodWife / Planet-Love Archives => Threads started in 2004 => Topic started by: Jamie on December 23, 2004, 05:00:00 AM