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Finally I saw the light. My main concerns other than her schooling and her career coming first, were that everything had to be her way.

Well, I sent a few messages expressing my concerns "about us" and she told me how sad she was. (No matter what I felt, she felt it more. I fell for this over and over again.) I mentioned in my message that I was very serious and there were some things to be discussed, but they will not be second. I told her to let me know when she had time for such a discussion and that it would not be second. I said "No matter what!" She called and said that we could talk, but it would be interupted by church because she had to go. That was hard because I just put my foot down, but I always told her since the beginning that I have no problems with God coming first. (I still don't)

I accepted that church would be first, but I was in conflict with myself because I had put my foot down saying that this conversation would not be second. I believed that we would talk, but if ran into "church time" then I could accept it. I always told her that God could come first. I said that I was just waking up, but to give me an hour and we will talk. She said church would be later, and I felt relieved. I felt that "we" were a priority and it was nice. I felt that I could "clear the air" and it was nice too. For a moment, I felt our relationship was first even over "God" and it was nice too.

Well, as I was waiting and 52 minutes later to be exact, (before an hour)I received a message saying that we would have to talk later, because she was going to church. "She was not ok". I finally had to put my foot down. I hated sounding like I should come before God because I will never be like that; but I was very very clear and she understood it perfectly. After that I put her second for the next couple of days and she continued to tell me how unimportant she was to me. Ahhh how I fell for the guilt. Over and over she used my words against me. When I stated how she put me second, she always had a good reason and I accepted it. When I had a good reason to put her second, she did not understand. Over and over, this battle took place.

From the beginning I saw her reasons, but she never saw mine.
If I had to go to the store after work before it closed, it was not ok. She would say: "I did not want to chat with her!"  but she could call and break plans with me, because it was the only time she could do those things. I always understood, and she never understood. Later I found myself doing those things to prove a point, and later i found myself being wrong for the same things that she does. (If someone can explain this, please do. I think that, I will never understand it)

If she wanted to talk 4 hours late; or on the next day, it was ok with me, but if I had to stay at work an extra 30 minutes, it was a guilt trip. Blah, Blah, blah, ... f***ing blah! ... Sorry, she just has me in the pattern of wanting to prove my innocence because she questioned all that I do.

I have tried to move on and contact other girls but I see this pattern happening, so I am trying to break it. I can break it, it will just be a little time.

I thank you all for your support, and I will be "back in the saddle" shortly, but it is just in time.

All in all, I still don't think that she wanted or cared for money; but I do think that I experienced a self centered, high maintenanc (emotionally) latina and that this experience will benefit me very very much. I have learned that some girls don't want your money, but just want you to give all that you have emotionally, and I discovered one.

Nope I don't regret it. I know that I have learned from it, and it is kind of nice to finally have made the trip. At least I jumped the fence.

Lessons in the learning...

V-Dude

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

V-Dude,
Thanks for sharing with us.  Your experience is a perfect example of why a any man on this quest must NOT want any woman so badly that he will accept controlling, manipulative behavior.  This lady has some serious personality and emotional disorder problems, and I don't think this comment is overdone.  What lies in store for you if you chose to proceed with her is more of the same - she apparently cares only for herself.  A latina will test you, and should you fail the test, will assert some control over you, and possibly (no, definitely) respect you less.  Having said that, you too must TEST your latina.  This venture, finding a latina partner, is basically a high-stakes proposition, and each one must weed out the scammers, players, insecure and undecided.  Good luck, you've learned a huge lesson here.  You're on the right track,
Ricardo

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004


"I always told her since the beginning that I have no problems with God coming first. (I still don't)
I accepted that church would be first"

I simply had to comment on this one... Yes, God should be first, HOWEVER, God and church are two different things.  

One of the most SERIOUS mistakes that Christian ministers make is NOT separating the two.  When this misunderstanding is abused, it can at the very least complicate, and at the worst destroy someone's relationship and/or life.

For instance, when my ex-wife and I were going through marriage counseling in the summer of 2003, I told her that "We are in an emergency situation, the (proverbial) house is on fire.  We need to spend more time together.  I would like to spend some 3-day weekends with you."  

Keep in mind I was the one who wanted to get divorced, and reluctantly went to counseling at her request, but I was the one providing all of the potential solutions... but I digress...

Her response to 3-day weekends was "they have to be scheduled 30 days in advance due to my church activities".  Intriguingly when she was in law school, she scantly went to church at all, while I went by myself on a regular basis as I have done all of my life.  However, after she got out of law school, and her DADDY started a church, suddenly church activities became more important than her marriage...

This is a clear violation of Biblical principle which states "For this cause shall a man (person) leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife (spouse), and they two shall be one flesh".

Furthermore, Jesus states (paraphrased) that "the married person cares more about the concerns of their spouse, rather than the things of the Lord".  This was NOT a command by Jesus, merely a realistic observation.  In other words, Jesus was "keeping it real"...  

Bottom line is that keeping God's Word and His principles first does not equate to being at church at a certain time because the doors are open, or because Pastor So-and-So wants you there at that time.  Specifically issues between a husband and wife (or premarried couple) must be addressed between the couple, or there want be any "couple" to worship God together in the first place.

... in response to God first does NOT equal church first..., posted by Looking4Wife on Dec 18, 2004

It was actually nice to see someone else that beleives this too. I never brought that part of me to the board, but the principles have been part of my bottom line in how I live and in finding someone.

When I woke up I was thinking that I hope someone else could see this; because when I made myself clear with her, it was with these words in mind, not a matter of her going to church or not.

Many many things came first with her along the way, it just so happens that it was church at that moment. If she had said that she was going to the store, going to the movies or anything else it would have been easy for me.
Instead I was feeling a bit guilty over standing ground at that time. This has been a nice reminder and I'm not feeling bad about the timing anymore. Thanks!

V-Dude

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

V-DUDE,

No matter what you guys are talking about, she is only concerned about herself.( In SA, they have church 24/7).
She used the fact that you stayed at her house to control you 24/7.
She uses her knowledge of psychology to manipulate you.

You have to be honest with yourself. Maybe you are really looking for a
controlling woman. If so,you have found your soulmate.
If not,on your next trip to SA:
1.Stay in a hotel.
2.Get to know several women.
3.Select carefully.

South American women treat men they perceive as strong very well. Talk to some of the policemen about how thier wives and two novias treat them.

BUENA SUERTE...

... in response to Narcissistic, controlling & immature, posted by cabocancun on Dec 18, 2004

Yeah you are totally right, she did use the staying at her house as a means of control. I am going totally slow on this now except for planning my next trip.

Papi just said it, and I have read it here many times but after this it all makes sense...

Go down, meet girls, then go back and court the 2 or 3 you like. I guess some of us have to have a few hard knocks before things sink in.

Oh well, it's kind of cool though. I sent a couple of emails to girls to take my mind off of things and when they have asked, "Have you ever been to South America?" Replying  "Yes!" has seemed to sit nice with me. Now I know that right off the top, I have set myself apart from many on the sites.

V-Dude

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

Vdude, she sounds like a real prize!  Forget her and get yourself on the next plane to Medellin, Cali, Bogota, BAQ or Lima.  Hook up with a good agency and meet 20 or 30 women.  Also, hit the malls and local bars.  Then return home, clear your head and return again shortly thereafter and court the 2-3 that really strike your fancy narrowing your decision to your new novia.  suerte

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

Great observations.  Al fines de cuenta (in the final analysis) that was the essential insurmountable problem in my failed marriage to a Colombiana...she saw everything only her way.  

This is probably the most serious fault because it pervades every aspect of a relationship.  I think that can be a tendancy in Latinas.  My wife's top priority was living peacefully and never arguing.  She also tended to want see everything only from her perspective.  

So what I learned to do was repeat back the situation to her.  You want X, I want Y.  We do Y, I accept it and we live in peace.  I repeat this several times citing different examples and we laugh about it.  An interesting thing about my wife is that she never says that I am right and she is wrong but she just changes to doing things my way without any fanfare.  

As an example, when we met she was a smoker, not heavy but maybe five or six cigarettes a day.  I told her I didn't like that, talked about health, secondary smoke etc.  She told me that she had smoked for fifteen years and quiting would be hard.  About two weeks later, I hadn't seen her smoking in awhile and I asked her about it.  "Oh, I quit" she told me.  No announcemnt, no drama, she just quit a 15 year smoking habit cold turkey and didn't even tell me.  

You made a wise decision.  You can't be happy with a woman who only sees her own point of view.

... in response to Re: Update.... (In regard to my finacee ..., posted by kented on Dec 18, 2004

That is what caught my attention in your VISA post you just made, and stated about comprimising with your ex.

As I was thinking about all the carrer things and school, I began looking back and was seeing this in her and then you posted it.

This girl was really never about compromising either. She was constantly (in her words): "No ok". Each time we discussed it, I gave her a solution. The solutions were never good enough and she always had an answer to not like the solutions and continue to be "no ok". One of the interesting parts is that it was always something that I was giving for her to benefit.

Finally in the end, I began to ask for some of the same things and she was not bending. What kind of sucks is that some of these were the very same things she wanted from me and she began to tell me how wrong I was when I wanted them. The worse part was that those things didn't even matter to me.

Thinking about it now, I'm just going to walk away when the games begin. I always did that before; but instead, things were bliss with her before it all began and I wanted to hang on to it.

V-Dude

... in response to Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my fina..., posted by valleydude on Dec 18, 2004

...destroy a relationship.  My ex and I would compromise and agree to do one thing her way and one thing my way.  I'd do what I promised and they she'd back out of what she wanted.  The non-polite word for that is lying.  

After the divorce we were friends for a while and I helped her buy a car.  She was the same way negotiating a price.  They'd reach an agreement and then she wanted to renegotiate at once.  I told her to stop it.  The first (and last) time she ever lsitened to me.

... in response to Re: Update.... (In regard to my finacee ..., posted by kented on Dec 18, 2004

i have dated many latinas and it does seem a common trait to always think they are right and worse to never admit when they are wrong. in fairness, i have seen this in AW also, maybe it's a woman thing.

... in response to Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my fina..., posted by jediknight on Dec 18, 2004

changing is just as good (even better) than only admiting you are wrong.  With my wife she doesn't have much formal education but she has a sixth sense for how to treat me.  She obviously listens to me and takes what I want into account.  She just doesn't make a big deal out of it.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my ..., posted by kented on Dec 18, 2004

right on kented. it's one thing to be able to say you are wrong but that quickly loses its appeal if she is always saying it, kind of like saying i'm sorry, if you hear that all the time is becomes worthless. it would be exciting and pleasing to see that before someone does something stupid or blurts out what they are thinking, that they stop and think before speaking and doing.

... in response to Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my fina..., posted by jediknight on Dec 18, 2004


I believe it IS a woman thing.

And I don't think it is any coincidence that the very word "woman" implies a warning... "Whoa, man".  If you say that fast, it certainly sounds like "wo-man" :-)  

Of course we can't survive without those beautiful women!  And of course, the alternative to women is just TOTALLY, and I repeat TOTALLY, unacceptable :-)

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

[This message has been edited by Red Clay]

   Forgive me being blunt, but what a manipulative spoiled brat! That's worse than Pete's ex turning every argument into "you yelled at me". Sounds like you are far better off for seeing the light. A woman who really loves you will not use church or her schedule or anything else to avoid you when you have a serious concern that needs to be discussed.

... in response to Re: Update....what a malcriada!!!, posted by Red Clay on Dec 18, 2004

No Dude! I totally appreciate the bluntness.

This was a bit weird. She turned everything on to me.
What sucks is that she even turned her own faults on to me.
In the past 2 weeks I just stood back and watched it.

Time to go lick my wounds...

V-Dude

... in response to Update.... (In regard to my finacee visa..., posted by valleydude on Dec 17, 2004

I don't know if the advice and support that you were given here was helpful, but I wish I had known about this forum before I got married. Take comfort in the fact that you found out about your differences before you got married instead of continuing to accept them and driving yourself crazy. Whatever disappointment you are feeling would have been 100 times worse if you had brought her here before coming to this realization. Take your time and keep looking, and I am sure that you will find what you are searching for. My small offering of advice is this: Be selfish in your search. You are looking for someone to fulfill your life, not the other way around. If it works out that her life is fulfilled also, then you have found your partner, but concentrate on what it is that YOU need and let the rest follow.

... in response to Re: Update.... (In regard to my finacee ..., posted by soltero on Dec 18, 2004

"Be selfish in your search. You are looking for someone to fulfill your life, not the other way around. If it works out that her life is fulfilled also, then you have found your partner, but concentrate on what it is that YOU need and let the rest follow".

This is good advice and I concur wholeheartedly. I have seen too many men give up their pants, balls, headship, etc; to please an undeserving woman. The beauty factor really f's up the thinking ability of many and they put up with shit that they know isn't acceptable. You shouln't be wasting too much time on her at this point. In fact, RUN!!!

... in response to Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my fina..., posted by slojas1 on Dec 18, 2004

I am starting to take this a lot more slow.
I have read that before and have been thinking about it the last week; but I admit, I don't understand the whole being selfish about this part? I guess it means, go after what I want and don't sacrfice for anything less?

With the beauty factor, I was kind of lucky. I know I could do a lot better than this her, so that part is making it all easy. On a scale of 1-10, in looks I would probably give her a 5. Mostly because I know some guys out there probably find her attractive. I always dated nice looking shallow girls so a few years back, I decided there was more to it than looks and did the opposite. Now I am going to sort through all of it and find hopefully find a nice happy medium.

V-Dude

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my ..., posted by valleydude on Dec 18, 2004

"I always dated nice looking shallow girls so a few years back, I decided there was more to it than looks and did the opposite."

I know what you mean. I did the same thing when I first started this. I have always dated pure "stallions". I wasn't looking for marriage so I didn't see any point being bothered with them if they weren't "10s". I went to CA and married a "5" thinking that she wouldn't be as much of a headache as the high maintenance women I was used to and more willing to work with me on raising a family instead of trying to look good. I really bit it on that one as she was 10 times worse in every way than anyone I had ever been with. Lesson learned. Some of those women would have made great wives, but I wasn't ready at the time. My novia now is gorgeous to me, intelligent, extroverted, fun, and sweet. Take your time, go for what you want and you will find it.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my ..., posted by valleydude on Dec 18, 2004

It means you are a much clearer idea of what you are looking for.  My major issues with my wife were whether everything was going to be her way or whether she would compromise on things and do some things my way.  

These aren't uissues you can determine on the first date but they are issues you can discuss and also observe how they play out in practice.  Everything being her way is a major red flag.  

After my failure, my goal was to find someone who I loved so much that I would delight in making her happy and someone who loved me as much as I did her.  Kids, education, employment didn't matter.  And then I needed a relationship based on compromise and working together.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my ..., posted by valleydude on Dec 18, 2004

[This message has been edited by soltero]

Here is the definition of being selfish in this, at least the way that I meant it. Not trying to thump om my chest here, but you eventually get to a point where you have to realize that you are the man in this. Who is it that is taking the initiative to step outside the box in the first place? Who is the one doing the travelling, the soul searching, the courting, and the supporting? I do not want to treat my future wife as anything less than an equal, and in reality, I want to place her on a pedestal as long as it doesn't go to her head. In order to get to that point, I have to realize that it is I who is making all this possible and forget everything I have learned about being humble about it, at least in my own mind while trying to find the person who will compliment ME and MY life. I am not looking south expecting to find someone to take care of me or support me financially. That's ridiculous. I will be doing that for me and her. I need her to support me in the ways that a true partner does and I will return that support one hundred fold. Acknowledge, understand and accept that this is YOUR quest, YOUR journey and YOUR future that you are choosing to share with someone who is deserving of YOU. You know what makes you happy...be selfish. The one who fits with what makes YOU happy is THE ONE. We have been trained to compromise on a level equal to electric shock treatment. Don't compromise there. SA opens up the door to us being able to being MEN in our own houses. Not our wive's husbands. MEN. That is the way the Latina wants it and the way God intended it. Be selfish. Accept only what fits with you and your plans for the future and nothing else. Don't compromise any more. You don't have to there. They don't want you to. Find the one that you don't need to with. I can't get any clearer than that....

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to..., posted by soltero on Dec 18, 2004

...have to compromise.  

I agree entirely with what you're saying.  In most of these relationships the gringo is the professional who is established and living in his own country.  

Today my wife gave away a life of accumulated possessions and placwed all her worldly possessions and those of her daughters in six suitcases.  I can only imagine how difficult this must be for her.  If we hadn't lived together for four months and she knew me well, I can't imagine her doing this (she didnn't life with aprents and everything in her house was hers and needed to be disposed of.  

I have a beautiful wife that is making this enormous sacrifice because she loves me.  I will go the extra mile to make her life easy and comfortable here.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Update.... (In regard to my ..., posted by valleydude on Dec 18, 2004

Your choosing a '5' reminds me of when I hired a girl that was not very pleasing to look at. Ok, she was damn ugly. I was accused of hiring only very attractive girls and wanted to dispel that notion. To make the story short, she had to be a spawn of satan. I had the worst time ever trying to get rid of her and after that experience, I decided that I will always hire based on my standards and not try to live up to what others were thinking. There are some similarities when selecting a prospective mate.
I appreciate your posts and you seem to be level headed. Do the right thing and move on. Yes, you have to be uncompromising on what you want in this search. If you take your time, you will find the one that meets all of your requirements. Remember, it is a two way street and you have to be 'on top of your game' and have something to offer as well.
Again, hope all ends well and just get back on the saddle.